masons
my dad was a mason, I wanted to know how do you apply, do you have to be invited? or do ask to join?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
There are many individuals and groups who have an abiding hatred for Masons, and who spread falsehoods about them.
Please don't base your opinions or decisions upon the views of one person, or one group, or one book.
First, "Ask a Mason", he will get you started, and while he's doing that, try to get some objective information, that does not originate from hate mongers.
Masons are good God Fearing men, who do good works for their fellow man.
Doug
That's one of the problems with secret organizations. It's next to impossible to get "objective information" about them. "Ask a Mason" doesn't work very well either.
I knew a man in Millington, Tennessee (1966/1967) who was a Shriner. He was about forty years older than me. He invited me to join the Masons (I guess he didn`t get the word about no invitations). I seriously considered it for about a year but declined because I couldn't get any "objective" or "subjective" information about them. I didn't decline because I thought there was anything wrong with them, just that I couldn't find out anything about them. When I asked him a question about the Masons or the Shriners, he would tell me it wasn't something he didn't want me to know, or anything that would do harm if it were public knowledge, simply that he had taken an oath not to discuss it, so he didn't discuss it.
I don't fault the man for honoring his oath, and I know the Masons and especially the Shriners do a lot of good works, but I don't want to join an organization where I don't know what I'm joining. Those who want to be Masons should try to do so. If it turns out that they really are a secret organization within a secret organization within a secret organization taking over the world, I hope they do a better job running it than the crowd who is running it now.0 -
Truth: Yes there is a secret hand shake. Yes there is a secret alarm for a Fellow Brother in distress that must be recognized by another Mason. Yes you do take an oath with your hand on the Old testament Bible. Yes there is a ceremonial threat of death if a Mason ever reveals these secrets to a non Mason.
Understand that most of these secrets are only ceremonial, and are kept in the first three steps of degree work for mainly historical reasons & traditions. Are they abused and taken seriously by some Masons? I personally can't say, but I have had a few who have expected favors when they crossed my path while I was working as a Police officer.
The main reason why I demitted was because of what Nunn previously posted. However, that is my own personal feelings & beliefs'. I hold no ill feelings towards any Grand Lodge Masonic member I know. I have known many, and they were all great people. Many of our forefathers and the signers of the constitution and bill of writes were Masons. Our US currency has many symbols on them that are symbolic of Masonic traditions. Washington DC was mapped out and built on these same traditions.
If your interested in joining go speak with a current member. Study the history, and traditions of the trade. If it is still something you feel you want to do, go for it.
Trinity +++0 -
You know what I think is cool? [:)]
This topic has run to two pages, with some seriously conflicting points of view, and so far, NO ONE has gotten mean, or nasty, or called names, or implied that anyone disagreeing with his opinion is an idiot. [;)]
That's cool. Thank you all. [:D]0 -
Your welcome.[8D]
Trinity +++0 -
quote:Originally posted by sav99
No one has answered my question yet. Just a yes or no is all I'm asking.
So whats the verdict then? Is anyone denying what Nunn said regarding the oath that 33rd degree swear to the enemy Lucifer?
That's His old name...0 -
The Scottish Rite and Shriner hospitals for burned or crippled children are the best in the world, and do not charge a dime. Visit one, and you will understand that, religious issues aside, these fine men do a service to children that cannot have a price put on it.
I challenge any of you to visit one of these hospitals (and visits are welcomed) and leave with a dry eye. If you can, you have no conscience.
Donations are accepted, but there is no such thing as a bill from the hospital.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by Ramtinxxl
Yeah, I hear they're good men who do good things...
http://freemasonrywatch.org/mcveigh.html
[:p][xx(][V]
McVeigh was also a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet.
...and at one time, he was the Army's top Bradly Gunner.0 -
I have to agree with the [procedural] aspect as touted by Sav99/JamesRK.
I wish there were a "kelly blue book" of religions. You could look up info. No bias. Interested in getting a Chevy? I can't "ask a dealer". Objectivity is gone out the window.
To practicing Masons reading this:
Sorry about the post, if I've offended. Or if this type of post puts you on the defensive. Joe0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
I have to agree with the [procedural] aspect as touted by Sav99/JamesRK.
I wish there were a "kelly blue book" of religions. You could look up info. No bias. Interested in getting a Chevy? I can't "ask a dealer". Objectivity is gone out the window.
To practicing Masons reading this:
Sorry about the post, if I've offended. Or if this type of post puts you on the defensive. Joe
Actually, Joe, I was going to answer your previous post -- your question about our secrets -- but my incredibly intolerant and unreasonable employers expect me to be at work by 7 AM sharp and I had no time. The fact you asked certainly does not offend me.
FWIW, I agree with those who point out that the insistence on absolute secrecy still practiced by many Masons, does more harm than good. Perhaps Indiana is unique in this regard, but our Grand Lodge has relaxed the "they have to join to find out anything" attitude -- to the dismay of many of our older Brethren, whom I honestly think enjoy the whole "secret society" image. Rather pathetic, since the "secrets" amount to so very little....
I am going to ask your indulgence in permitting me to explain the "yes or no" answer I'm going to give you, for the simple reason that if I don't explain someone else is going to ask my reasons -- I might as well deal with it all in one post.
No, revelation of our secrets would not hinder what we do, other than to make it more difficult to freely extend charity and other assistance to fellow Masons and (as our code states) their widows and orphans.
So why not set everyone's mind at ease and let the world know all? For several reasons.
One, the majority of our secrets have to do with identifying one another as fellow Masons. A Mason who approaches another Mason, or a Lodge, with a request of financial or other assistance, must prove himself a Brother. Thus identifying himself doesn't completely do away with the risk of being swindled, but it diminishes that risk to an acceptable level. We know the drill the guy went through to come into possession of the means of identifying himself.
Two, it is the will and pleasure of those running the Indiana Grand Lodge, and I presume every other Grand Lodge jurisdiction in the world, that the secrets stay -- secret. I swore to keep them so. I don't need to explain to anyone short of God why my sworn vows are of greater weight that the satisfaction of someone else's curiosity -- or the alleviating of their suspicions. More so because --
Three, those who most want to know the secrets would probably not be content with the pitiful few that I and my fellow Masons actually possess. I could foreswear myself, breaking my given word, for no more reward than incurring the wrath of the God with whom I have a very good relationship, these days, and having those wanting to know insist that what I've told them isn't all there is. Why break my word to tell a truth that most of those who actually want to know won't believe anyway?
And, four, I and every other Master Mason is sworn to assist a Brother in distress, to the extent of risking our own lives to save his. While I think myself noble enough to extend this assistance to any innocent person placed in danger, there is a sign with accompanying words, given by a Mason in distress, which I am sworn to respond to with assistance. Again, no problem helping anyone -- but I don't want the sign given or words spoken to force me, by someone who has no idea what he's asking and might well refuse to extend me the same assistance if our positions were switched.
Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this. No offense was taken, you can be sure of that. Like Nunn, I very much appreciate the overall tone of civility this discussion has taken.0 -
Mongrel,.......while I am not a Mason, my Grandfather was, as you saw from the beginning.
You have handled this discussion perfectly, and I admire you for that.
My own Grandfather wouldn't tell me anything about it, other than how to go about joining if I ever wished to.
I have chosen not to, but this discussion has kind of fired me up to possibly pursue that.
He was a great man, and I know the works that are done as an offshoot of the Mason's,.......most much better than I see from the local churchgoers.
Thanks for the intelligent responses!0 -
quote:Originally posted by mongrel1776
Actually, Joe, I was going to answer your previous post -- your question about our secrets -- but my incredibly intolerant and unreasonable employers expect me to be at work by 7 AM sharp and I had no time. The fact you asked certainly does not offend me.
FWIW, I agree with those who point out that the insistence on absolute secrecy still practiced by many Masons, does more harm than good. Perhaps Indiana is unique in this regard, but our Grand Lodge has relaxed the "they have to join to find out anything" attitude -- to the dismay of many of our older Brethren, whom I honestly think enjoy the whole "secret society" image. Rather pathetic, since the "secrets" amount to so very little....
I am going to ask your indulgence in permitting me to explain the "yes or no" answer I'm going to give you, for the simple reason that if I don't explain someone else is going to ask my reasons -- I might as well deal with it all in one post.
No, revelation of our secrets would not hinder what we do, other than to make it more difficult to freely extend charity and other assistance to fellow Masons and (as our code states) their widows and orphans.
So why not set everyone's mind at ease and let the world know all? For several reasons.
One, the majority of our secrets have to do with identifying one another as fellow Masons. A Mason who approaches another Mason, or a Lodge, with a request of financial or other assistance, must prove himself a Brother. Thus identifying himself doesn't completely do away with the risk of being swindled, but it diminishes that risk to an acceptable level. We know the drill the guy went through to come into possession of the means of identifying himself.
Two, it is the will and pleasure of those running the Indiana Grand Lodge, and I presume every other Grand Lodge jurisdiction in the world, that the secrets stay -- secret. I swore to keep them so. I don't need to explain to anyone short of God why my sworn vows are of greater weight that the satisfaction of someone else's curiosity -- or the alleviating of their suspicions. More so because --
Three, those who most want to know the secrets would probably not be content with the pitiful few that I and my fellow Masons actually possess. I could foreswear myself, breaking my given word, for no more reward than incurring the wrath of the God with whom I have a very good relationship, these days, and having those wanting to know insist that what I've told them isn't all there is. Why break my word to tell a truth that most of those who actually want to know won't believe anyway?
And, four, I and every other Master Mason is sworn to assist a Brother in distress, to the extent of risking our own lives to save his. While I think myself noble enough to extend this assistance to any innocent person placed in danger, there is a sign with accompanying words, given by a Mason in distress, which I am sworn to respond to with assistance. Again, no problem helping anyone -- but I don't want the sign given or words spoken to force me, by someone who has no idea what he's asking and might well refuse to extend me the same assistance if our positions were switched.
Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this. No offense was taken, you can be sure of that. Like Nunn, I very much appreciate the overall tone of civility this discussion has taken.
Mongrel: givette here again. Sorry to be a pain, but I highlighted in red the crux of the reason for my initial posting. I firmly believe that I should be the one to make that decision. It's called self determination. I hope you don't fault me for my steadfastness. I try to get to the bottom of, and do research on all issues placed before me. I just feel stymied, I guess you'd call it.
Well, I've agitated you enough. Please always remain steadfast in your convictions, as I'm sure you will be. Your fellow GB'er, Joe0 -
Joe --
No agitation here, believe me. I suspect I'm agitating you, more than the other way around, not being able to give a plain, simple answer to what seems a very simple question. I understand your frustration -- you want information upon which to make a reasoned decision. Without the least difficulty, I can see why a man might decide the fraternity wasn't for him, or that such secrecy must hide something darker than the mundane motives I've listed previously, based on the inability or refusal of any Mason to tell him what he wants to know.
Thank you for your kind words regarding my convictions. I will say again, I appreciate the civility of this discussion. It's not the first time I've attempted to explain my feelings about Masonry, and as much of the facts about it as I can divulge and still stay within the spirit of my obligations, but it's one of the few times I haven't figuratively turned my back and walked away because of how ugly it got in a hurry. I hope I am always able to express myself in a manner that warrants respect, if not agreement.0 -
This may be the best thread we've ever had.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
This may be the best thread we've ever had.
Doug
Not....but then again, I'm not a Mason.0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
It [Masons] does good. I am convinced of that. No problem.
Would someone who is posting, and who is a Mason please tell me this:
If the secret part of the Mason existence were to be made available for public scrutiny, would it, in your opinion, be a hindrance to your society?
(No details, please. I don't wish to carry this beyond a simple yes, or no answer. Please remain focused on my question). Thanks, Joe
To answer. NO0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
This may be the best thread we've ever had.
Doug
It's sure been a civil conversation.0 -
Doug,
I thought the tombstone & OK Coral thread was the best. Bet you didn't know that Doc Holiday was a Mason....[:D] Some say that is why he & the Earp's became friends.
In Pickets Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg, the Confederate General Louis Armistead was fatally wounded. He was kept from being injured any further when he made it clear he was a Mason. A Yankee officer who was also a Mason came to his aid, and kept other soldiers of the Army of the Potomac from causing him further harm. His injuries were severe, and he did later succumb to them. There is now a new memorial statue at the Gettysburg cemetery that honors the Masonic soldiers sacrifice on both sides of the battle.
Trinity +++0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
It [Masons] does good. I am convinced of that. No problem.
Would someone who is posting, and who is a Mason please tell me this:
If the secret part of the Mason existence were to be made available for public scrutiny, would it, in your opinion, be a hindrance to your society?
(No details, please. I don't wish to carry this beyond a simple yes, or no answer. Please remain focused on my question). Thanks, Joe
I am a Mason, and proud of it! Thank God we live in a country where we can choose our affiliations. To answer your question about the "secrets being made public", just go to your local library or on the internet to get them. But please don't just look at our detractors. Go to several Grand Lodge sites and get our views, then make a free and open-minded decision for yourself. Don't allow anyone's baises (pro or con) sway your mind.
We are not allowed to get into heated discussions regarding Freemasonry, but I will answer as truthfully as I can any reasonable question asked. If I don't know the answer, I will tell you where I think you can get it.
Just remember, IF we were a "Secret" organization, why would there be signs at the egde of most towns advetising our presence and our Lodges prominently displayed on main streets all over the world?0 -
To all you good people that contributed to my enquiries....a hearty Thank You. My questions have been answered (to the extent possible on a public forum). I'm satisfied with the answers I received.
Best to all, Joe0 -
quote:Originally posted by grdad45
quote:Originally posted by givette
It [Masons] does good. I am convinced of that. No problem.
I am a Mason, and proud of it! Thank God we live in a country where we can choose our affiliations. To answer your question about the "secrets being made public", just go to your local library or on the internet to get them. But please don't just look at our detractors. Go to several Grand Lodge sites and get our views, then make a free and open-minded decision for yourself. Don't allow anyone's baises (pro or con) sway your mind.
We are not allowed to get into heated discussions regarding Freemasonry, but I will answer as truthfully as I can any reasonable question asked. If I don't know the answer, I will tell you where I think you can get it.
Just remember, IF we were a "Secret" organization, why would there be signs at the egde of most towns advetising our presence and our Lodges prominently displayed on main streets all over the world?
I don't know if you can answer this, where could one look on the net to find the exact wording for the various oaths and/or pledges that masons swear at their various levels? If you are not allowed to answer such a question I can respect that.0 -
Do a Google search for Morals and Dogma. The first one that came up for me locked up my computer. Further down the list was the book on PDF, and it works. There were other links that also worked. 0 -
Boring read Nunn.
I started at the beginning and went down a spell...then went to the end and went up.....
More boring than a Jehovah's Witness WatchTower booklet.[:D]0 -
Send me an email and I'll help you out. chgothnder@aol.com 0 -
Wrong
quote:Originally posted by sav99
That 33rd degree (I think its 33rd) oath swearing by allah is somewhat concerning.From what I understand freemasonry has substantial muslim overtones. This is just what I've read, obviously I could be misinformed.0 -
Nope, not even
quote:Originally posted by nunn
My information is that ancient Egyptian pagan dieties are invoked, and that the 33rd degree initiate is required to swear allegiance to Lucifer. But hey, what do I know?0 -
Albert Pike was only a Man and a Mason who wrote a book he percieved as his version based on his personal experiences.
PJ
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Masons are forbidden to offer a prayer "in Jesus' name" in their meetings. That is enough for me.
They are also required to place their oath and their ties to "fellow crafts" above any other moral, legal, or ethical concerns. For instance, one example given in the rule book: If a Mason is on trial, and he gives a "high sign," identifying himself as a Mason, any brother Mason on the jury is required to vote for acquittal, no matter what. That is more than enough for me.
I have had Masons tell me, "That is a lie," when I mentioned the above, but if they believe it is a lie, it is because they didn't read the rule book. Morals and Dogma, by Albert Pike.0 -
Not the truth!
quote:Originally posted by sav99
No one has answered my question yet. Just a yes or no is all I'm asking.
So whats the verdict then? Is anyone denying what Nunn said regarding the oath that 33rd degree swear to the enemy Lucifer?0 -
TM was not a Mason
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by Ramtinxxl
Yeah, I hear they're good men who do good things...
http://freemasonrywatch.org/mcveigh.html
[:p][xx(][V]
McVeigh was also a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet.
I guess they're all Disciples of Satan too0 -
Oldmagics and Grdad, (Mongrel1776 I have got to sit and talk with you) and others. My son just turned 18 in September and after we went to register him with selective services he asked when he would be allowed to join the lodge. Illinois is 18 and he has been waiting a long time, he has sat with me in every chair that I have taken. He was the first kid allowed to do so in Evanston and it started a trend where we started having open installations and open building nights. Jr. Has been going with me for 12 years and has had to wait outside in another room, I cannot wait to actually sit in open lodge with him. I know he don't worship the devil and such but maybe we can change his mind[;)] To some it would seem that the uninformed make up things or repeat things that they have heard and then add to it. ANYTHING you would like to know about Freemasonry is now on the internet and in libraries everywhere. Now for the biggest thing I will tell you about Freemasonry is their biggest secret of all...............Ready..........
The biggest secret about Freemasonry is.......
There are no secrets.
Fraternally,
Patrick Joseph Jones a Mason
Wayfarers No. 1001 PM x 2 & Life Member
Deadwood Lodge No. 7 South Dakota Member
Men in Brotherhood No. 1178 Charter Member/Webmaster/Life Member
Oasis No. 41 Las Vegas
Evanston Temple Board Representative
Evanston RAC No. 144 PHP x 3 & Life Member
District Deputy Grand High Priest 2E
Augustus N. Gage Council No. 124 TIPM x3 & Life Member
Grand Representative to Nevada Cryptic Council
Evanston Commandary No. 58
Alvin L. Crump Council AMD PSM
York Rite College No. 15
Red Branch of Eri
Scottish Rite Valley of Chicago
Asteri Chapter OES 1029 Charter Member PWP x2
Medinah Temple, Temple Guard & Life Member
Founder Widows Sons Dark Side Chapter Illinois
Father of 4 and Grandfather of 3 so far0 -
As with any "secret" society or fraternity, only those who actually belong really know what the facts are. That, in and of itself, is enough to keep me away.
Coupled with my natural aversion to "group think" and weird (my phrase) rites and such and I tend to shy far, far away from these doings.
I realize that there are many good works performed by the Masons. It would seem to me that these same good works could be performed in the light of day, without the secretiveness and strange ceremonies.
My questions about the Masons:
Why the big secret?
Why the closed door to information?
Why the insidious numbers of "temples" in every burg, town, village, city, nook and cranny in a large part of the civilized world?
Why the influence that Mason Members seem to have and the number of positions of power that many members hold in society?
Why belong to such a group and purportedly uphold "whatever" the dogma, traditions, and/or purposes of the organization is?
**********
Knowing a number of Masons and seeing how they tend to operate, I generically view the Masons as the worlds largest "good-ol-boy" network, done in the shadows, albeit with a public "good works" for society face.
Bottom line, I am not much of a follower and I swear my allegiances in the light of day to God, country and family. I can and do support the same, but again, in the light of day.
Any oath that is secret, is suspect in my mind. I have sworn an oath on more than one occasion, but these oaths were open and aboveboard for all to see. I could see no reason to join up with a group who trace their (or someones) roots back for an untold number of years and who band together in the shadows and swear to support each other (and support what else?) in almost all circumstances.
Just my personal thoughts opinions, with no disrespect or offense intended. To each his own. That is what being free is all about.[;)]0
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