masons
my dad was a mason, I wanted to know how do you apply, do you have to be invited? or do ask to join?
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quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
quote:Originally posted by sav99
No one has answered my question yet. Just a yes or no is all I'm asking.
So whats the verdict then? Is anyone denying what Nunn said regarding the oath that 33rd degree swear to the enemy Lucifer?
Sav,........couldn't answer that for you. I think it is all a bunch of BS myself, as I know my grandfather was not a "devil worshiper".
He was not of a "high" order, that you are speaking of, and abided by the "rules", which was to not speak of it.
Everyone has to be afraid of something it seems.[xx(]
My old Grand Dad was a mason as well, and he too was a great guy. But that not withstanding, I don't know if my grandfather was deceived or not. I can't form an opinion of freemasonry as a whole based on the fact that my grandad was one for many years and he was a nice guy. I just have to be more objective than that.0 -
I believe Nunn. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by collector14
Kimbercolt,
You asked the question and Doug gave you the correct answer to your question. There have been other posts that I feel I should respond to. The 33rd Degree is "Honorary" and there is no "initiation" involved in receiving that Degree.
Nothing with your masonic obligation will conflict with your duties to family, country or God. No demons, dieties, lucifer, allah, etc., etc., etc..
I am a 32nd Degree Mason. Now I'm going to quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that".
If you're only 32nd degree, how do you know what REALLY happens at the 33rd degree?[;)]0 -
Nunn mentioned about "ancient Egypt",.....that involves Imhotep, do some research, and that is quickly figured out if you don't already know who he was.
Also,.....lets not leave out the infamous "Knights Templar" in this discussion.0 -
Masons rule the world through a spiderweb-like conspiracy of the rich.
If you get too close to the truth, you'll be eliminated.
Obviously, none of y'all are close to the truth.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:Sorry David, you have been misinformed also, and it appears that on more than one issue.
I knew somebody would say that.
Too easy an answer, sorry. It turns into my word against yours -- me feeling that, never having been a Mason, you're not in a position to know anything firsthand about the fraternity; you feeling that, as a Mason, of course I'm going to say you're mistaken.
It might help to consider that in all of the first three degrees of Masonry (and the only three required to be now and forevermore a full-fledged Mason), one swears -- on the Holy Bible, in the name of the God one believes in, meaning in a fashion binding upon one's soul -- never to reveal the secrets of Masonry, including but not limited to the nature of the initiation rituals. So, by definition, anyone who has taken said oath, and later renounces it to share information he swore not to, breaks an oath taken before God. That in itself casts doubt on the integrity of those alleging to have been Masons and coming forward to reveal all the deep dark "secrets", which, incidentally, aren't overly deep, not dark at all, and by the terms of my solemn vow made to God I can't talk about -- or renounce. Ever.
The argument that a power more sinister than God is worshipped in our Lodges is defeated by the fact that, again, our oaths are taken on the Holy Bible, and in this country primarily by Christians, who in their hearts are therefore swearing to God and Christ -- though, no, Christ is not named in any Masonic ritual. The Christian who swears an oath on his Bible is bound by the terms in his own heart and soul, and, as for those terms being at odds with a Christian's faith -- I believe it was Christ who said that a house divided against itself cannot stand, that evil cannot cast out evil; by extension, that evil cannot do good. Walk through a Shriner Hospital where crippled and burned children are given the finest medical care -- free of charge, if necessary -- and call that the work of the Devil. If you can say that, and believe it in your heart, I pity you.
In addition, since up to this point we have a contest between what I claim to be true, and my opinion, and the statements and opinions of those who disagree with me -- reconcile the evil reputation of Masonry among those who don't know it, or who have renounced it, with the fact that some of the most distinguished and honored men in the history of our nation have been Masons. Begin with Washington, Revere, Warren, Franklin, (possibly, but maybe not) Jefferson, as well as a whole slew of the rest of our Founding Fathers; follow the exploration and building of our nation with Lewis and Clark, both, Crockett, Travis, Bowie (and Santa Anna, but we don't like to talk about him....[;)]), Carson, and many more who left their bones, blood, and footprints across this land; consider the sacrifices made by Masons on both sides in the Civil War, including a high number of ranking officers as well as enlisted men long forgotten; and include, while you're at it, Presidents from Washington, again, through Jackson, through Theodore Roosevelt, up to and including Truman (more recent First Executives may have belonged to the fraternity; my focus of study in Masonry as well as everyday life is on history rather than the modern day). Add in John Wayne, Walt Disney, Audie Murphy, and a host of other American notables and heroes -- then explain how the whole bunch were the deluded or consciously evil members of a devil-worshipping fraternity that no decent Christian should consider membership in.
Or, maybe, concede that just possibly many of the anti-Masonic statements made over the years have been by those who don't know about the fraternity, and, for what might seem very good reasons to them, are afraid of it; or who, again for possibly very good reasons, in their own minds, have renounced the fraternity and then felt obligated to denounce it.0 -
"a house divided against itself cannot stand."
-Abraham Lincoln
But...the point is the same.
Doug0 -
Not a Mason myself. A number of family members have been and never spoke of it.
All I know is that it is a bit creepy to see a Masonic temple in just about every community I have ever been in, down to the tiniest piss-pot towns ever.
Secret oaths and such, coupled with a world-wide network down to the very fabric and grassroots of most societies, seems a bit odd to this skeptic.
Beyond that, I know nothing about it and although invited to join on a couple of occasions, I walk my own path and don't take well to organized rites and rituals, so therefore declined any offer to join up.
I am basically a lone-wolf type of guy.[;)]0 -
Mongrel: A man may swear an oath or pledge to a god who does not exist, or to a GOD who he may know of, but be indwelt by. My point is this, I can easily understand a guy being a mason and taking the oaths before god as he understands god to be. Then later in life getting saved and becoming born again and leaving the masons if he so chooses. In which case I can't imagine GOD holding that man to his oath given in ignorance. And I would not question his integrity in such a case. 0 -
Yeah, I hear they're good men who do good things...
http://freemasonrywatch.org/mcveigh.html
[:p][xx(][V]0 -
You are not "invited to join the Masons" - you must ask them.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Ramtinxxl
Yeah, I hear they're good men who do good things...
http://freemasonrywatch.org/mcveigh.html
[:p][xx(][V]
McVeigh was also a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet.
I guess they're all Disciples of Satan too0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
You are not "invited to join the Masons" - you must ask them.
Doug
Well, tell that to two of my acquaintances that asked me if I was interested.0 -
Matthew 5:33 - 37
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12
"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."0 -
They were likely not Masons.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
They were likely not Masons.
Doug
They were for a fact. Don't know what level as both were only in it for a handful of years at the time. They were guys who liked me that wanted me to share "the experience" I suppose.
From your terse reply, it seems as if this was 'against the rules" or something. Don't know what to tell you. It is what it is.0 -
to expound just a bit on what mongrel1776 said...
part of the reason for, "All I know is that it is a bit creepy to see a Masonic temple in just about every community I have ever been in, down to the tiniest piss-pot towns ever.
Secret oaths and such, coupled with a world-wide network down to the very fabric and grassroots of most societies, seems a bit odd to this skeptic".
is the fact that the Masonic Lodge has been since its inception a mutual aid society, which expanded to assisting the community, elderly, poor, sick and children.
the only true "secrets" are the forms, signs and vocalizations of recognition
Shriners hospitals as mentioned give TOTALLY FREE care to all children with serious injuries, birth defects, burns and skeletal deformations includeing supplying prosthetics at no charge!
and that care is continued on an as needed basis to the age of 18.
they also provide free transportation to and from all scheduled visits, even up to licensed pilot members flying those who are too far to drive.
they also employ some of the most highly trained doctors, not a bunch of newly graduated kids, and at least the one in Philladelphia, is a training and research center.
(my son is a former patient, who probably would not be able to walk properly if not for these guys and if you want to see truely sad cases, getting help that would never be available for most, take a tour of your local Shriners Hospital)
i am not in the shrine to know about their oaths, but if you check the history of the Shrine, it is an APPENDANT BODY, which means that it is basically a "fun" or social group which limits its membership to masons.
Shrine composes mainly its support of its hospitals by the various clubs within its main group. car clubs, computer club, "mounted patrol" which is an equestrian group which goes to parades and such along with the motorcycle corp.
(the song "Shriners Convention" by i think ray stevens sold most of its copies to Shriners
then their is the "Scottish Rite" which every one is so worried about the "degrees"
the 33rd degree which i see brandies about is honerary for service to community, and furthering the image of the organization
the previous 29 degrees are just dramatic portrayals of the biblical or historical concepts of the teachings of the lodge.
they are actual stage performances, which after witnessing each you have achieved that "degree"
(the first 3 are the basic degrees of the "blue Lodge" or standard Masonic Lodge, of which you MUST BE A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING to qualify to petition either Scottish Rite, Shrine or York Rite. in other words every Shriner, Scottish Rite or York Rite is a Mason, but not every Mason is a member of any of the other groups.)
Scottish Rite also has its "pet" charitys one of which is special schools and tutering for reading and help with dyslexia (sp?) along with alzhimers and other age related illnesses
then there is the much forgotten "York Rite" which is EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN!! of this i AM a member, and i can tell you WITHOUT BREAKING ANY OATH that a part of that degree work is to pledge to "defend the Holy Catholic Church above all others"
catholic because of the simple reason that at the time the degrees were written, it was THE church, and all the degrees (the actual ones at least) are handed down mouth to ear and are FORBIDDEN to be written to be found by a non-member and have not been changed since the formal inception of the group.
this one is based mainly on the history of the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR
"infamous" only because 1 french king, (who was mightily in debt to the Templars from his continued ill-advised wars) actually took the Pope hostage, moved the papicy to France and forced him to pass edict against the Templars in an attempt to grab their wealth.
his personal form of bankruptcy
NO EVIDENCE (other than forced confessions dureing torture) was ever found, and recently the pope has passed one of his great edicts absolving them of all charges of heresy...which was the biggest charge against them) (i have had an interest in all i could find studying them since jr high)
York Rite has mainly the "Knights Templar Eye Program" PAYING THE BILL for eye surgery, transplants and other treatment to avoid blindness
most of those speaking against the Lodges are those who either;
1 do not have any idea what it is about except rumor
2 disgruntled ex-members who did not see a large personal benefit trying to get "revenge"
(for years many thought joining a lodge would get you "in" with wealth and privy jobs...NOT TRUE)
3 CATHOLIC CHURCH...because masonry require onlythat you believe in A GOD, not any specific religion, which goes against the teachings of the catholic (and some others) church that theirs is the ONLY TRUE RELIGION WHICH MAKES THE MASONS A BUNCH OF BLASPHEMERS
if any one has more ? or to discuss anything more feel free to e-mail, if i dont know i will try my best to get an answer0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
You are not "invited to join the Masons" - you must ask them.
Doug
Well, tell that to two of my acquaintances that asked me if I was interested.
they may have asked if you had any interest because they think highly of your character, and may not have known they were masons or how to go about getting information0 -
www.trosch.org/msn/mason-graphics.html
Anyone know what the Mason's think the secret name of God is?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by Ramtinxxl
Yeah, I hear they're good men who do good things...
http://freemasonrywatch.org/mcveigh.html
[:p][xx(][V]
McVeigh was also a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet.
I guess they're all Disciples of Satan too
Your concept of logic is staggering. Let me guess, an IQ in the double digits? [:p][:I][:o)][:X]
Or maybe you just weren't able to comprehend the topic of this thread? Was anyone asking whether they should become a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet? What sort of oaths did U.S. Army Desert Storm Vets take? Are their reunion gatherings held in secret? Do they have a secret handshake? Blah, blah, blah. Get a small life, howboutit? [:p][:I][:o)][:X]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
"a house divided against itself cannot stand."
-Abraham Lincoln
But...the point is the same.
Doug
Doug, I believe Lincoln's statement to be based on the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 12, verses 25 and 26: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" Other, more modern versions of the Bible update the wording somewhat -- though whether the specific words "a house divided against itself cannot stand" are in fact found in any Bible, or originated with President Lincoln, is something I admit not knowing for sure. You're right that the point is the same, either way.
As for the others whose disagreement with me runs deeper than the matter of sources for quotations -- I stand where I stand on this. If being "born again" means accepting Christ and living my life by His teachings, to the best of my ability, then I'm there -- and I was before I became a Mason. I'm also intelligent enough to understand the words used in the obligations of the three degrees, and, unless God is a lawyer and twists "white" to mean "black" when "white" was what I actually said and meant in my vows, there was nothing in them to conflict with my duty to God, country, neighbor, or self.
However, if being "born again" involves public demonstrations of my original acceptance of Christ, and of my present piety as defined by others, then I'm in something deep and smelly. One area in which I fall short of Christ's example is in being too stubborn and proud to speak or act in any fashion demanded by others, unless I just happen to be in the mood to humor them. That failing of mine will be for God alone to judge.
I can't speak of or judge how a change or an increase of a man's faith might inspire him to believe. As I will not have my faith judged by that man or anyone else, I extend him the same respect.
Oh, and FWIW, in Indiana it is now Masonically legal to approach a man one knows to be of good character, and suggest that membership in the fraternity might be of interest to him. I believe this simply gives formal sanction to something that had been going on for a long time anyhow -- though, yes, words are spoken in the rituals (not the obligations themselves) that advise against doing so.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Matthew 5:33 - 37
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12
"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
I presume then that oaths taken on the Bible, in court, "so help me God", are against Christ's teachings.
Kimbercolt asked how one goes about joining the Masons. To finish by adding to the chorus: ask any man you know to be a Mason. Whether or not it's the right thing to ask is a question only you can answer. My own opinion and the advice I give are no more valid than any other person's.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Ramtinxxl
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by Ramtinxxl
Yeah, I hear they're good men who do good things...
http://freemasonrywatch.org/mcveigh.html
[:p][xx(][V]
McVeigh was also a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet.
I guess they're all Disciples of Satan too
Your concept of logic is staggering. Let me guess, an IQ in the double digits? [:p][:I][:o)][:X]
Or maybe you just weren't able to comprehend the topic of this thread? Was anyone asking whether they should become a U.S. Army Desert Storm Vet? What sort of oaths did U.S. Army Desert Storm Vets take? Are their reunion gatherings held in secret? Do they have a secret handshake? Blah, blah, blah. Get a small life, howboutit? [:p][:I][:o)][:X]
Maybe you weren't able to comprehend the topic of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Kimbercolt
my dad was a mason, I wanted to know how do you apply, do you have to be invited? or do ask to join?
I see no mention of secret handshakes, secret meetings, ect....Nor was he asking IF he should join, only HOW to go about doing so.0 -
You're right. Sorry. 0 -
"Ordo Ab Chao"
Scottish Right Masonry motto..."out of chaos comes order"0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
You're right. Sorry.
Mr. Nunn -- assuming that to be directed at me -- gracious but unnecessary. This is a discussion, and, so far, by and large a civil one -- especially given the strength of feeling on the parts of some participants. Sharing my thoughts only with those who agree with me would get boring. [;)]0 -
No. Rack Ops pointed out that we were answering questions that the original poster had not asked, and he was correct. 0 -
It [Masons] does good. I am convinced of that. No problem.
Would someone who is posting, and who is a Mason please tell me this:
If the secret part of the Mason existence were to be made available for public scrutiny, would it, in your opinion, be a hindrance to your society?
(No details, please. I don't wish to carry this beyond a simple yes, or no answer. Please remain focused on my question). Thanks, Joe0 -
I think that there are some other facets of the Masonic Lodge in Indiana which are outside normal Masonic dogma...??
Doug0
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