Ruby Ridge & Waco
The Discovery Times channel (DTMS) last night (Friday 2/10) ran to different special reports on Waco and Ruby Ridge.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
0
-
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
Those of you who are saying things like this can believe whatever the bloody hell you want to... But nobody who has posted in this thread was physically present or involved in either of these events.
While true, The event was at Mt. Carmel, not Waco, and I have friends who live in Mt. Calm which is closer than Waco, and these people were not nuts or bad neighbors. In fact, they were always willing to help local farmers when needed. I also don't have to be present to see injustice and an attack where it wasn't warranted.
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
You want to talk about freedom and the 1st amendment? Yeah, not only do you have freedom of religion, but you have to right to hold whatever opinion you want to. So if you want to believe the sky is purple, more power to you bright guy.
So you're one of those (like the idiots you defend) who would like to deny me those rights because you disagree with them? Easy to see why you're on the murderers side here.
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
Tell me something... if the government set out to murder everyone at both of these 2 incidents, how come a large number of the branch davidians walked out of Mt. Carmel alive? Of the hundreds of people there, only 6 were killed during the shootout with the ATF, and 81 died in the suicidal fire.
Can't read huh? I never said that, but obviously it's okay with you for them to murder a few, and to shoot a woman holding a baby in her arms in the back. You become clearer with every statement.
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
And just how is it that Randy Weaver, 3 of his kids, and Harris walked out of their house without being mowed down? And Weaver, was convicted of nothing other than missing his original court appointment, then let free? If the government was out to get him, why didn't they bribe or blackmail the jury to see that he was sent to jail for life?
Again, it's okay to murder the kid and the wife, just as long as Randy and three of them walked out? Don't you see you are excusing the murders of those who did die because Big Bro told you it was so. Don't be weak minded and blind!
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
Perhaps since this is the GB forums, I can expect nothing other than opinions like this. And are you going to be the same people to tell me that "all mighty jesus" is going to rain down meteors tomorrow, and kill me during the "last days" Because both the davidians and the Weaver's had similar lines of thinking... that the world was going to end courtesy of bible prophecy. Hmmm, as I'm looking out my window, I don't see burning asteroids falling down the ground. Perhaps the end of the world will be the day after tomorrow *shrugs shoulders*
So you can be clear on the matter, I think Koresh was a heretic, and Weaver was a nutcase. Tell me where either opinion should crucify anyone to death, and my point was/is, what are you going to do when someone comes to power who sees you or your family as the same threat as Weaver or Koresh. If we don't defend those on the edge, the edge will soon include us. It already includes you.*shrugs shoulders*
PS, my fight nor my anger is direct towards you, only those who have brainwashed and misinformed others into believing their actions were/are honorable and within the law. You have to step back and put yourself in the victims position and determine if Big Bro. was justified, and if he can declare these people as dangers, how far away are the rest of us.0 -
Clarnt, I don't know who told you all that crap, but not a single word of your version is true other than they were murdered.
Koresh was a PREACHER, not someone that would shoot at Gov't agents, suspected or not, driving by or not. In fact, when the surveillance team established a "hide" across the road from Mt. Carmel; Koresh ordered them pizza! He'd been in the place months before, inquiring as to the price.
Power-mad and wanting any news that would make DOJ look good (and therefore deflect attention from yet another scandal); Reno and Klinton conspired to KILL those people to send a message that Big Bro is all-powerful, and extremely touchy about disobedience.
All those inflammatory videos purporting to show flames spewing into the building, or reflections of IR tracers in puddles on the ground, or alleged tapes from inside the building purporting to overhear voices telling others to burn down the only shelter thay have aside; it only takes a coupla seconds to determine the right-and-wrong in either case, and the extremely heavy-handed tactics utilized by the Gov't. weren't warranted in either.
The abduction and relocation of Elian Gonzales was another example of how Big Bro can push his way into your home at gunpoint any time of day or night, hold you against your will for 72 hours or more, and decide whether or not to kill you on a whim.
Same crew involved in that one.
If Bush were such a War Criminal and cared less about your Constitution; he'd have gone in and siezed that illegal alien stashed in that church!0 -
I personally believe clarentavious is someone else here that is simply wishing to stir things up a bit. To put it quite simply, no one can be that dumb. 0 -
FF- You may have something there- checking his profile I note that he is from the same state as that other tried & true aggitator: Hairy
A point of clarification- Lon Horiuchi wasn't shooting at Mrs Weaver. The scope that he was using has multiple dots, & one of these was on the horizontal crosswire, places to give a lead on a person walking, at the distance indicated. when ol' Lon fired, he had the dot on Mr Weaver, unfortunately he was walking toward a standing Mrs Weaver which resulted in the crosswire resting on her.
We should file a claim against Mr Horiuchi for all the money wasted on his training- I have students in Hunter Education that would know to not make that shot, and they're only 10 years old!! So much for our Highly Trained Federales0 -
I guess I hit a hot button
I really appreciate the dialog.
I'm learning a lot.
Thank you.
D.0 -
Posted by joker5656:
quote:well since i was there during the incident i can say those people were crazy. always yelling at people on the streets saying your going to hell if you don't believe. always passing out flyer's.
Geez Joker, I really didn't know they were such a serious threat to the locals!
Good thing the Feds came in and handled those rowdies so the poor locals could sleep at night!
"Passing out flyers" and other such threatening behavior should certainly earn you the kind of treatment they got.
quote:government would burn to death 80 women and children...AFTER gassing them with a poison OUTLAWED by the militaries of the world...one baby convulsed so badly, she broke her little back...actually curled up backwards.
After the fire...some of the scum=bags pissed on the bodies of the dead....0 -
I saw the Branch Davidians all the time, and was never yelled at or handled a flyer. They were a pretty peaceful bunch. My Mom lives in Bellmead about 15 miles from their compound. I was at her home and saw the smoke from the fire, saw and heard the fire trucks and ambulances rushing to the scene.
The Branch Davidian Compound was close to Elk, not Waco which is more than 20 miles away. Waco got blamed for it and it didn't happen there.
Koresh was an idiot -- but he was in a local bar every weekend playing his music and could've been grabbed any time there. He loved driving his big block Camaro around Waco and surrounding towns.
Somebody wanted to make an example of him.
I've watched and listened to all the film thay made when the ATF attacked, and I never heard an automatic weapon fired. If they had automatic weapons, surely they would have used them as they felt the end of their world was happening.
The ATF made many blunders, I was taught to NEVER get on a roof in a situation like this, they did and some were killed.
I don't know who set the fires inside their compound, I wasn't there -but I'd bet Koresh wouldn't have been taken alive.
It was a sad situation all around. I went to the site after they took down the security around it, and had an eerie terrible feeling while walking around there. I won't go back.0 -
Randy Weaver got his family killed.
Clouder..0 -
Wow!
What a bunch of ill-informed crap some of you have accepted as fact!
And the Troll instincts come bubbling up! [V]
Ruby = no need to attack the guy. Shoulda left him alone.
At the time, I got the impression the welfare of the State was at issue; instead, it is a guy on a few acres who said "B.S." to the Fed's charges.
And wasn't he a Separatist, rather than a Supremacist?
Waco = Same thing. It was an affair for locals, not the Feds.
Doug, don't you live in a valley with one road in, and one out? Able to seal yourselves away from anyone [including the Gov't] with a few pieces from the VFW [aside from persuasion from the air]?0 -
quote:So it's ok for you to be intolerant, but not the government?
The absolute first thing you have said with which I agree.
When I am 'intolerant'..somebody gets their feelings hurt.If I step over theline into action..a person or two may be killed...swiftly stopped by bystanders or the community
When goverments are intolerant...40 million people die...or, in the beginning, 80 people are gassed and burned to death...nothing to stop them...
The Constitution was supposed to ensure that the goverment did not become intolerant...
So you just keep on keeping on swallowing the official government line...help usher in the new dark ages quickly decending upon what WAS a beacon of freedom,one time....0 -
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
Believe what you want.
Yeah, you too.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
but Koresh and the Weavers were asking for trouble.
Even though, they didn't ask for or deserve the death penality, nor did the innocent children around them.[:(!]
Next time the government (AKA Big Bro.) decides you're "asking for trouble", do you want them to attack and kill you and your family, then sell it to the people, who didn't have a chance to convict you in a court of law, that you were deserving of what you got and, "asking for trouble".
You just keep trusting the politicians who are willing to kill you to make a political point as your protectors and friends. And, be sure you don't hold murderers accountable as long as they are acting on orders from Big Bro..[^]
Those of you who are saying things like this can believe whatever the bloody hell you want to... But nobody who has posted in this thread was physically present or involved in either of these events.
You want to talk about freedom and the 1st amendment? Yeah, not only do you have freedom of religion, but you have to right to hold whatever opinion you want to. So if you want to believe the sky is purple, more power to you bright guy.
Tell me something... if the government set out to murder everyone at both of these 2 incidents, how come a large number of the branch davidians walked out of Mt. Carmel alive? Of the hundreds of people there, only 6 were killed during the shootout with the ATF, and 81 died in the suicidal fire.
And just how is it that Randy Weaver, 3 of his kids, and Harris walked out of their house without being mowed down? And Weaver, was convicted of nothing other than missing his original court appointment, then let free? If the government was out to get him, why didn't they bribe or blackmail the jury to see that he was sent to jail for life?
Perhaps since this is the GB forums, I can expect nothing other than opinions like this. And are you going to be the same people to tell me that "all mighty jesus" is going to rain down meteors tomorrow, and kill me during the "last days" Because both the davidians and the Weaver's had similar lines of thinking... that the world was going to end courtesy of bible prophecy. Hmmm, as I'm looking out my window, I don't see burning asteroids falling down the ground. Perhaps the end of the world will be the day after tomorrow *shrugs shoulders*
Why? They were armed and fought back. Then there was so much attention, media and public, that to kill them would have been in the public eye. Perhaps??[;)]0 -
I am finding a surprising amount of support for the actions of the government agents in these tragic incidents. I don't. It doesn't matter much whether the Davidians and/or the Weavers were good guys or bad guys, or somewhere in the middle. Both operations were carried out WRONGLY, from the beginning, and both operations could have been executed without firing a shot, had the government agents simply thought it out.
As one member succinctly suggested: "Believe what you want."0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
About Korish...in Texas, law enforcement MUST have a warrent for arrest at the TIME of arrest, I believe...or a subject can resist.
The police do not have to have a warrant in hand to arrest someone or execute a search, as long as the warrant exists. How else do you think cops executing a traffic stop are able to arrest people with outstanding warrants? They don't have the paper physically in their hand, it is enough that the warrant exists. And the ATF did have both a search warrant and an arrest warrant for Koresh specifically.
And quite frankly, Koresh is not quite the hero many of you are making him out to be. There are videotapes of his underage child brides talking about how Koresh fathered children with them. This guy was a child raper and he got his in the end. I'm not saying that the ATF was right to use such heavy-handed tactics and blatant disregard for the lives of women and children, but I won't shed one tear for that evil child raper David Koresh.0 -
quote: There are videotapes of his underage child brides talking about how Koresh fathered children with them. This guy was a child raper and he got his in the end. But, but, but he was a Christian and only following the precedent set by his deity, right? Or was he a Muslim, following the Prophet? 0 -
quote:The police do not have to have a warrant in hand to arrest someone or execute a search, as long as the warrant exists.
I may not know all the rules, but I know what I do.
I serve arrest warrants all the time without having the warrant in hand. We have to have the actual warrant in hand at the PD, or teletyped warrant information in hand at the PD, if the warrant is issued somewhere else.
I have also served search warrants. Every time, the warrant was present at the search location. Had to be. We have to give the property owner a copy of it, and a receipt for any property removed under authority of the warrant.
Regardless of the rules, showing up to search a house, leaving the warrant somewhere else, is asking for trouble. Imagine it. Cops show up at your house, saying they are coming in to search. You say, "No. Not without a warrant." They say, "Oh, we have a warrant. Trust us. It's at the station. Now get out of the door." LOL. That would work.0 -
Ruby Ridge, Waco, SWAT teams to serve arrest warrants???? I have often wondered what would have happened if the sheriff had simply driven up to the location, walked to the door and knocked? Seems to me that the logical answer would have been (or at least might have been) someone would answer the door.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that not only our federal agents, but also too many locals in law enforcement watch too many TV movies. Being different or weird is not illegal, or at least not susposed to be illegal.0 -
Never did the Branch Davidians or Randy Weaver hurt anyone.
Randy Weaver was entrapped by federal agents, the warrant for his arrest was issued because he missed a court date that was different than the date on his summons (known to the judge that issued the warrant), and he has since been exonerated and bought off by the same. He was not a 'White Supremacist' as has been stated, he was/is a 'White Separatist', in fact (from answers.com, but it can be found anywhere):
"...To this day he claims, "I'm not a white supremacist. I'm a white separatist. I was born white. I can't help that. If I was black I'd probably be affiliated with Louis Farrakhan's group, but as it is, I don't belong to anything. I don't believe I'm superior to anyone, but I do believe I have the right to be with my own kind of people if I choose to." While he denied being a member of the Aryan Nations church, he and his wife did share their separatist beliefs..."
Randy Weaver did not genuflect at the alter of the great American State, and he paid for it with the lives of his wife and son. This occurred under a Republican Administration. One that should respect the rights of people to be individuals, but obviously did not. There are days when I am not so proud to be an American.
Likewise David Koresh was the target of an over-reaching and over-imaginative Attorney General. Janet Reno, flush with the success of railroading and falsely convicting a family-run daycare, was eager to buttress her resume once made the nation's sheriff. With her newly minted tin shield, she found another child-welfare case certain to propel her into the headlines once again. The federal claims of child endangerment and illegal weapons possession have yet to be proven. (Did anyone else find in odd that the Ma-deuce they were stated as having completely melted in the fire and couldn't be found?)
Interestingly, both the sectarian left and the spiritual right both condemned the Davidian Cult and accepted that he should be taken down. So much for religious freedom from either of these enlightened groups.
Both of these incidents reveal (and it continues today) that government does not trust us with firearms, and will violate any standard that here-to-fore has been upheld on a whim. The fact that there was not an overwhelming public outcry over both of these events shows that most of us agree with the government's position.
When they come after you because you refuse to take down your publicly displayed cross at Christmas or your Menorah during Hanukkah, will you be able to depend on your friends and neighbors for assistance? Will your friends and neighbors be able to depend on you? Or will they be like we were during Ruby Ridge and Waco, and simply watch?
After all, it wasn't my rights or life that were being destroyed, David Koresh and Randy Weaver were, well, different.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wtroper
Ruby Ridge, Waco, SWAT teams to serve arrest warrants???? I have often wondered what would have happened if the sheriff had simply driven up to the location, walked to the door and knocked? Seems to me that the logical answer would have been (or at least might have been) someone would answer the door.
Isn't it standard procedure for police departments all across the country to use SWAT (or equivalent) teams when executing a search warrant on a premises where the police know for a fact that there are heavily-armed suspects?0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I am finding a surprising amount of support for the actions of the government agents in these tragic incidents. I don't. It doesn't matter much whether the Davidians and/or the Weavers were good guys or bad guys, or somewhere in the middle. Both operations were carried out WRONGLY, from the beginning, and both operations could have been executed without firing a shot, had the government agents simply thought it out.
Nunn has made statements before about the competence of federal law enforcement officers. The feds almost never make the big arrest. Local LEO's stunble across the guy.
I think he is correct.
Don't forget that Elian GOnzalous (sp). I was surprised no one was shot when that CUban kid was grabbed by the Feds.
Janet Reno is a boob.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Likewise David Koresh was the target of an over-reaching and over-imaginative Attorney General. Janet Reno, flush with the success of railroading and falsely convicting a family-run daycare, was eager to buttress her resume once made the nation's sheriff. With her newly minted tin shield, she found another child-welfare case certain to propel her into the headlines once again. The federal claims of child endangerment and illegal weapons possession have yet to be proven. (Did anyone else find in odd that the Ma-deuce they were stated as having completely melted in the fire and couldn't be found?)
Completely not true. The allegations of child sex abuse came from several former Branch Davidians, they were the ones who alerted authorities. A Texas Child Welfare services investigator went to the compound, but was denied access to all areas of the compound and she was also prohibited from speaking with the children alone. During the siege, Koresh released a videotape to the media in which he discusses how "God" wanted him to procreate with all the women in their group, and he was also shown on the tape with his child wives.
And Koresh certainly does deserve much of the blame for how that siege ended. Ask yourself, why at no point during the over FIFTY days of negotiation did he release the women and children to safety? Why keep them, other than as bargaining chips and human shields? He could have let those kids go at any time, he chose not to. How is that any different than Hezbollah or Hamas hiding from Israeli soldiers behind children? Do you blame the IDF for all the civilians killed in Gaza? Do you blame our soldiers when civilians get killed in air strikes or crossfire in Iraq?
And are you forgetting that a deal was reached during the negotiations which Koresh RENEGED on? The FBI and Koresh struck a deal, the Davidians would surrender and in exchange, an audiotape made by Koresh would be aired on national radio. Well, the FBI kept their end of the bargain, they gave Koresh's tape to the media and it was played all over the news, Koresh then changed his mind because "God told him" that he needed more time. The ATF and FBI certainly were at fault, but the blame must be shared equally, Koresh had a death wish and he was going to take all those people with him, the FBI messed up by giving him his martyrdom.0 -
Warriorsfan -- maybe, I do not know. Are you thinking about your house and mine? I expect that many would describe me as heavily armed, since I own numerous high powered rifles, shotguns, revolvers and semi-auto pistols. I am afraid that maybe we might be talking about that type reaction by some persons to us. Do you consider yourself "a dangerous individual." I do not, but it is not our opinions of ourselves that matter. It is their opinions.
It is unfortunate that we have allowed our society to sink to the level that is apparent from almost any newscast. Obviously, in some places law enforcement should feel threatened and may need that type of reaction. I hope that they would not feel that way about me. But I am not sure. I have observed what I thought was "overreaction" from our local police on more than one occasion.0 -
warriorsfan:
Koresh does deserve some of the blame, no question.
But, he could have been arrested during one of his trips to town, had the law simply waited. No, they did not want to wait and in fact tipped off the local media, effectively alerting Koresh that there was a warrant out for his arrest and alerting him as to when they were coming to get him. I vaguely remember the video that you noted, and must confess that I do not remember hearing him say that, but I will take your word for it. As you noted, however, this video was released after the siege had started and after people had already died, and had nothing to do with the initial assault.
Do I blame the IDF and our soldiers for collateral damage deaths? I blame the commanders when the deaths are incurred during an unnecessary and over-reaching mission. The Davidians died because they hitched their wagon to a man whose mental state was fragile at best. Law Enforcement made the assault a media event which pushed him over the edge which indirectly led to their deaths.
I do not pretend to suggest that David Koresh was a model citizen, and it is possible that he was a depraved pig. My point is that in both Waco and Ruby Ridge, the the combination of firearm ownership and not thinking like good little Americans caused the Feds to react violently and allowed the rest of America to sit back and just watch.0 -
Sperry - Have you been to my place, or did you look it up on a map(service) ??
What you said about the place is correct. I also have my house on a knoll with clear fields of fire for 360 degrees. As far as an airborne assault against my property, I have a steeply pitched metal roof, as well as tall oaks surrounding the place, making fast-roping in difficult.
Doesn't this describe all the board members homes ??
D.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I am finding a surprising amount of support for the actions of the government agents in these tragic incidents. I don't. It doesn't matter much whether the Davidians and/or the Weavers were good guys or bad guys, or somewhere in the middle. Both operations were carried out WRONGLY, from the beginning, and both operations could have been executed without firing a shot, had the government agents simply thought it out.
As one member succinctly suggested: "Believe what you want."
I don't think some of the people here understand what I'm saying. I *never* said that everything the davidians and weavers did was wrong, and everything the government did was right - not just simply during the standoffs, but the entire situations from beginning until now. With Randy, starting with whether he sawed off the shotguns or was setup - all the way up to the wrongful death lawsuits. And with Koresh, from the molestation and imprisonment, to the investigations and accusations still on going to this day.
BOTH sides screwed up during BOTH conflicts. And people got killed as a result on *both* sides. The operations were tactical and strategic blunders for the government - and the davidians and weavers made little attempt to resolve the accusations and conflicts peacefully through either surrendering unarmed, or taking their case to the judicial system.
LAPD SWAT still uses CS teargas gas to this day... and many patrol officers carry OC spray.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
... I also have my house on a knoll with clear fields of fire for 360 degrees. As far as an airborne assault against my property, I have a steeply pitched metal roof, as well as tall oaks surrounding the place, making fast-roping in difficult....
When did they start 'fast-roping' 250 pound bombs?
If they want ya, dougy, they GOT ya.
Clouder..0 -
Doug,
I seem to recall you posted that information about four or five years ago ...
A friend of mine might have sent you a ball cap or some magazines at one time, but
I sure don't know the address. But if I'm passing through, I'll be sure to ask you for it.0 -
Whether the Davidians or Weaver were right or wrong is irrelevant. The presence of the children alone, and their fate, is proof positive that the Government completely mishandled these situations. Randy Weaver was awarded considerable compensation by a court of law for the Governments actions at Ruby Ridge. 0 -
Thanks for clarifing, Nunn...
3.1 million dollars...1 million apiece for the girls...100 thou. for Randy.
Quite a chunk of change for a 'blameless' government...but of course...the 15-20 million..PLUS the 3.1..all came out of your pocket...
and the day they announced that the sum was being paid...our illustrous gov'ner held a dinner where W Houruchi and the feds involved were presented shiny medals for their 'heroism'..."puking now"...such is what gives real heros really bad names....0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gsuDBAj62KMPlease sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
104 comments