Ruby Ridge & Waco
The Discovery Times channel (DTMS) last night (Friday 2/10) ran to different special reports on Waco and Ruby Ridge.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
The Discovery Times channel (DTMS) last night (Friday 2/10) ran to different special reports on Waco and Ruby Ridge.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
Two events that clearly pointed to what the Fed is driving towards. On the surface, tactics may have changed as to "standoffs" against people who challenge the Feds authority to do what they do. Underneath, the thought process is the same, ruthless suppression and the ultimate disarmament of the civilian populace.
It is only a matter of time until another "Ruby Ridge" type event occurs.
With the explosion of alternative news sources and talk radio, the Fed took a step back. There are way too many eyes on their military, heavy handed, unconstitutional activities.
Keep your eye on legislation restricting open and pointed speech on the internet and on talk radio, i.e. "the Fairness Doctrine". Once passed, it will allow events to be spun to the favor of the Fed and against freedom minded people. Watch what happens when it, or something like it, is passed.0 -
You trust lawyers, everyone in prison or jail had a lawyer.[:(][xx(][V] 0 -
well since i was there during the incident i can say those people were crazy. always yelling at people on the streets saying your going to hell if you don't believe. always passing out flyer's. it was worse if you blew them off when you walked by them and didn't want to listen to them. people were glad that those people where gone (not dead just gone from the area). the town came to a halt when the place burned down that day. i was in school and we would watch it on the news everyday at school. 0 -
PLEASE re-read this post...and PAY ATTENTION.This fellow knows whereof he speaks ...the 'backing off' part is EXACTLY what took place..then came 9/11 and TENS of billions of dollars are being poured into black bag stuf that is DESIGNED to subdue a population resisting tyranny...and the privacy invasions designed to make it impossible to hide even the intent....
About Korish...in Texas, law enforcement MUST have a warrent for arrest at the TIME of arrest, I believe...or a subject can resist. The warrent for Korish was left in Waco....Also..it is little know that the scum-bag agents ran out of ammo...and begged Korish to allow them to get their wounded out and pull back. Stupidly, he allowed it...never believing for a moment that his own government would burn to death 80 women and children...AFTER gassing them with a poison OUTLAWED by the militaries of the world...one baby convulsed so badly, she broke her little back...actually curled up backwards.
After the fire...some of the scum=bags pissed on the bodies of the dead....
quote:lt496
Senior Member
Two events that clearly pointed to what the Fed is driving towards. On the surface, tactics may have changed as to "standoffs" against people who challenge the Feds authority to do what they do. Underneath, the thought process is the same, ruthless suppression and the ultimate disarmament of the civilian populace.
It is only a matter of time until another "Ruby Ridge" type event occurs.
With the explosion of alternative news sources and talk radio, the Fed took a step back. There are way too many eyes on their military, heavy handed, unconstitutional activities.
Keep your eye on legislation restricting open and pointed speech on the internet and on talk radio, i.e. "the Fairness Doctrine". Once passed, it will allow events to be spun to the favor of the Fed and against freedom minded people. Watch what happens when it, or something like it, is passed.0 -
Now is the time to rise against our government. We have the constitutional right to relieve or current government and replace it with what we see fit. Now is the time to bring about change before it really is to late. 0 -
quote:civiliansoldier Posted - 02/10/2007 : 10:39:14 PM
Now is the time to rise against our government. We have the constitutional right to relieve or current government and replace it with what we see fit. Now is the time to bring about change before it really is to late.
I think not...no...I KNOW it is not time.
There is LOTS more coming down in the near future...and when 'its time' will be be readily apparent to even the most brain dead. The Elites will be unable to reframe from passing yet one more law taking away from the herd amd giving it to the few..and even the herd will know.
Start something now...die alone.
Plus..there is NO "As we see fit"..there is a Constitution and Bill of Rights...at least the first ten of 'em...pretty good guide-posts to a government....0 -
Re: Waco- I may be a dumb country boy, but I DO know a few things: 1. The search warrant was based on an affadavit so badly flawed MY magistrates would have laughed at it. 2. The Branch Davidian was NOT founded by David Koresh- it is an offshoot of the 7th Day Adventists, and goes back to the 1930's. 3. NONE of the full-auto and anti-tank weapons alleged were ever found. 4. The "child abuse" allegations are NOT a Federal crime- and were investigated TWICE by the Texas Child Protective Services, and determined to be unfounded. 5. Kinda hard to call your lawyer when phone lines are cut, and cell phones jammed. 6. Seems NOBODY knows who ordered the site bulldozed within a couple of days of the fire. 0 -
...yeah well, even though I dissagree with the way Waco was handled, there is plenty of evidence that the fire was started by the folks inside...from them spreading flamable liquid about...and most of the people inside were shot, by the people inside.
These jerks were looney as they come...not a religous group, unless one considers a cult a religous group. A bad deal all the way around, and plenty of blame to go around too.
To call these idiots that shot and burned to death their own people; law abiding does not come to mind here, nor does innocient up standing citizens in my mind.
...Waco is not far from me, and I woke up on that sunday morning to wall to wall live coverage that went on for days. I doubt that all the networks were "in" on some cover up to portray the government as saints in the event.
Though the ATF went up to the house looking like special operators and ready for a fight, it was not a smart idea to start shooting at them. The people inside could have gone about it in a different way, as in come out w/o starting a loosing firefight...and no one would have died.
To go up against any LEO agency, or alphabet agency is an act of stupidity. Whats the point? You die, so you "prooved" a point...that most people dont care about or will be forgotten after the next big news event. "Yeah! I won! I showed them, I died..."[xx(]
But I guess those that squeal the loudest about how bad and disshonest our government is would ignore the evidence of that, why should facts matter?
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I don't think that they have been forgotten.
D.0 -
when the police come to arrest you, you comply and let the legal system handle the matter. if you dont, you end up with dead people. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by civiliansoldier
Now is the time to rise against our government. We have the constitutional right to relieve or current government and replace it with what we see fit. Now is the time to bring about change before it really is to late.
I find a curious juxtaposition between this post and your signature line,
"Support our troops, they insure our future"0 -
How many people find it disturbing that the FBI commander at Waco was Richard Rogers, the same man who had been in charge at Ruby Ridge.
Lon Horiuchi was at Waco too.
Read my sig. and let that sink in.0 -
quote:Originally posted by RunForest
when the police come to arrest you, you comply and let the legal system handle the matter. if you dont, you end up with dead people.
quote:The Battles of Lexington and Concord were the first military engagements of the American Revolutionary War. They were fought on April 19, 1775, [1] in Middlesex County, Province of Massachusetts Bay, within the towns of Lexington, Concord, Lincoln, Menotomy (Arlington), and Cambridge, near Boston. The battles marked the outbreak of open armed conflict between Great Britain and its thirteen colonies in the mainland of British North America.
About 700 British Army regulars under Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith were ordered to capture military supplies that were reportedly stored by the Massachusetts militia at Concord. The Patriot colonists had received intelligence weeks before the expedition which warned of an impending British search. At this, the colonists moved nearly all the supplies to safety. They had also received details about British plans on the night before the battle, and information was rapidly supplied to the militia.
The first shots were fired in a skirmish at Lexington during the British Army's advance. The militia were outnumbered and fell back. Other patriot soldiers at the North Bridge in Concord fought three companies of the king's troops. The British Army broke ranks and fled from the Minutemen after a pitched battle in open territory.
More Minutemen arrived soon thereafter and inflicted heavy damage on the British regulars as they marched back towards Boston. Upon returning to Lexington, Smith's expedition was rescued by reinforcements under Hugh, Earl Percy. A combined force of around 1,300 men marched back to Boston under heavy fire in a tactical withdrawal and eventually reached the safety of Charlestown.
The British failed to maintain the secrecy and speed required to conduct a successful strike into hostile territory, and they seized no weapons of significance. Most British regulars returned to Boston unharmed. The occupation of surrounding areas by the Massachusetts Militia that evening marked the beginning of the Siege of Boston.
The battles are known as the "shot heard 'round the world", described in Ralph Waldo Emerson's Concord Hymn.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bloviator
These jerks were looney as they come...not a religous group, unless one considers a cult a religous group. A bad deal all the way around, and plenty of blame to go around too.
While this statement is true, if you allow freedom of religion, you have to allow cults. Otherwise, there is no freedom of religion. That's how the Muslims kill the Jews and Christians.
Who's to say if you let them go after the Dividians now, they won't be coming after the Catholics next, then the Baptist and so on, and so on.
I think David Koresh was a hieratic, but he and they had the right to live and worship within the laws, and they did. None of that justified an attack.
You let the dog in the door and soon you're living in the dog house.0 -
I think I'll go read more in depth about Waco. I was pretty young and not really interested in current affairs when this happened. All I knew was I was raised as a 7th day adventist and his beliefs were out there. I didn't hear about why the goverment went after them other then they were nutjobs I felt. That however is not illegal in this country supposedly. 0 -
Joker
You're either joking or lying.
I spent time with the Dividians at their HQ in La Verne, Ca. Waco was not their HQ. It was in La Verne... look it up. The Waco property was property the Branch Davidians won/took over in a legal battle with the son of the last leader of the Davidians. (Thats were the Branch in Branch Davidians comes in). At one time in the 1930's-40's the Dividians had a publishing empire publishing millions of tracks a year for the mainline 7th Day Adventist. The trust left over from those days still holds millions.(Ever notice how churches always seem to make money? Think trust fund.) That is one reason David Koresh fought for control of the Dividian/Waco property.
They never operated in the fashion you claim! They conducted themselfs more like evangical-hippie/mormon missionaries. They still were into passing out tracks and flyers at 7th Day Adventist gatherings. The La Verne property was useful because they had a ready recruiting ground at the 7th Day Adventist school at the University of La Verne.
Dean
quote:Originally posted by joker5656
well since i was there during the incident i can say those people were crazy. always yelling at people on the streets saying your going to hell if you don't believe. always passing out flyer's. it was worse if you blew them off when you walked by them and didn't want to listen to them. people were glad that those people where gone (not dead just gone from the area). the town came to a halt when the place burned down that day. i was in school and we would watch it on the news everyday at school.0 -
But just look at how much the Feds learned from all this. Why, a few years later, they didn't have to use even a single tank to get Elian Gonzalez! 0 -
Wierd that they would use federal agents Richard Rogers and Lon Horiuchi in Waco after they botched the job so bad in Ruby Ridge. Personally I think this Lon Horiuchi is a cold blooded killer. His head shot in Ruby Ridge is well accepted as fact and mysteriously a sniper heard the first shots from his position during the Waco incident. 0 -
In all honesty, I don't think there was severe abuse of government power during either of these incidents. Perhaps minor abuse of government power - but not some terrible inexcusable massacre of tons of innocent people (as was seen in the Oklahoma City bombing). Let's go over the facts we know...
Illegal activity WAS occurring at the brand dividian compound. Felons and other prohibited persons were in possession of firearms. Civilians were in possession of unregistered machineguns. Semi-auto rifles were being illegally converted to full auto. I don't know whether they were in the city limits of Waco... but I do know the compound was not a sanctioned range (and discharging firearms at any location not approved for such purpose is usually a violation state law or city ordinance).
David Koresh was having sex with girls under the age of 16, taking them as his wives, and making them pregnant. He was holding some people there against their will, especially minors. You're entitled to believe what you want under the 1st amendment... but you aren't entitled to control and detain people.
Since he and some members of his organization were blatantly committing felonies and making irrational threats to both the government and the general public, he needed to be arrested, and his organization disbanded. I don't think of him as being much different than what we've seen recently with Warren Jeffs (just an LDS spin off, as opposed to a 7th day adventist religion).
Do you think Koresh you have been allowed to continue molesting children and brain washing people. How about entitling himself to full auto weapons we cannot? He needed to be stopped.
Now the execution of the operation is another matter. It is still disputed to this day who fired the first shot. But since Koresh knew the ATF was coming, he and his followers could have given up peacefully before they even arrived. If the branch dividians were shooting at the ATF, the ATF had every right to shoot back.
As for the FBI... If they wanted to end the standoff immediately with violence, why didn't they go in shooting from day 1? Negotiations went on with them for over 50 days IIRC. They tried a variety of techniques ranging from loud noises, to cutting off the power, to bright lights, to compromise to try and convince them to come out... and they didn't. And even tear gas wasn't a lethal method. I don't think there's any evidence the FBI set that fire... or that they dividians couldn't have come out if they wanted to.
Now whether the ATF should have called off the operation before it started because they lost the element of surprise, or whether excessive force or inappropriate tactics were used by either them or the FBI... that's been debated for some time now. There are lots of people who claim many different things. But there's very little proof. And survivors on both sides contradict each other.
As for Ruby Ridge... We know Vicki was unjustifiably murdered... and we can track that action down to one man, Horiuchi.
The events between Harris, Sam, and the Marshals are too unclear to determine who was in the wrong there.
The Weavers were definitely paranoid religious fanatics. That's not illegal, but they were aggressive towards their neighbors, wrote threatening letters to the government, and engaged in white supremacy behavior (and we all know the KKK and Aryon Nations would kill alot more blacks and jews if they could get away with it).
Whether or not they technically committed any crimes, they were knowingly drawing alot of unwanted attention to themselves, and scaring quite a few people. Not a wise move if you ask me. If you wanted to do something irrational and questionable, I'd keep quiet about if you don't want to cause concern among others - and get yourself into a mess.
There was no doubt some abuse of government power on the Ruby incident... but let's not forget the Weaver's weren't exactly innocent either.
If it turns out Gary Condit actually murdered, or arranged to have Chandra Levy murdered - I think that would be a much better example of abuse of government power. I'm not saying mistakes weren't made at either Waco or Ruby, but not quite on par as something such as the case of Alexander Litvinenko being flagrantly murdered by the Russian government for doing nothing other than exposing their corruption.0 -
I disagree Clarentavious about the Ruby Ridge incident. Time and time agian they goverment screwed up and started the conflict, then started the shooting. Until then from all the accounts I've read the Weavers didn't start anything.
What started all the mess was Randy going to a white suprimist meeting. I feel the whole sawed off shotgun thing was entrapment. It's fact he declined several times and finally got pressured into it, and even then they were 3/8ths of a inch to short. He claims they were cut shorter then legally allowed after they left his hands. Hearing so much dirt about our pride filled goverment I wouldn't be so sure they didn't alter them after they left his possesion since he laughed at the goverment when they wanted him to turn into a informent and then told the aryans what the goverment had tried. Paid back maybe?
I'll list the mess ups time and time agian I'm meaning if you'd like.
No comment on the Waco incident. They actually might have had actual legal reasons on that one. However, I do beleive they were targeted since they were considered a cult.0 -
I don't think that they have been forgotten.
D.0 -
It's gotta be said; the folks in Waco DID NOT have any "illegally converted" rifles ( several purchases were made from Ronnie Barrett of Murphreesboro, TN, but they were for BOLT ACTION guns), they DID NOT have re-armed hand grenades (several purchases of replica hand grenades were cited as one of the violations-they made desk stands with a "Take a Number" tag), they DID NOT fire first when the FBI,et al assaulted the compound (anyone could have seen from the missing front door that wasn't even introduced as evidence in the trial of the survivors), their weapons were NOT full-autos of any kind until two "agents" clambered into an upsatirs window, and having been shot; dropped their machineguns and fled.
Those people (call them what you will; they were Americans) were MURDERED by self-aggrandizing political fatladys, interested in a spun sound bite proving how right their actions were.
Ruby Ridge was a bit different, but with almost the same tragic result.
RW was a separatist/white guy/loner with a family to feed, realizing his dream of an outback lifestyle with some modern conveniences who was targeted by one alphabet agency or another for years prior to his having committed any "crimes". When bugged for about 2 years by a person RW considered a friend, to shorten up the barrels on a pair of shotguns to less than some arbitrary limit for $200; he did it just to keep his friend happy and pay for some food.
Like Koresh; RW made many visits to town with and without members of his family, was available for arrest amost anytime without laying siege to a plywood cabin, and had some gun knowledge intertwined with his choice of spirituality.
I hate to relive the anger and despicable stories the media were wont to splay nationwide during this siege, trying to frame RW as an Aryan Warrior or some kind of Jew-hating Gun Nut, he was accused of cooking speed in his cabin (again, like Koresh), converting pistols into machineguns, etc. until his pal was shot, his son was shot, his wife was shot, his life was shot, and then the trial began, and after that, he sued and got millions for the wrongdoing of the same individuals that brought you the Waco massacre.
No LEOs were harmed during this post, all words were checked for terrorist threats.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
The Discovery Times channel (DTMS) last night (Friday 2/10) ran to different special reports on Waco and Ruby Ridge.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.0 -
In this country, you have the right to be a wacko. But if your views are that extreme, you'd be best to keep them to yourself. Theoretically, radical fanatics aren't supposed to be persecuted, but it does happen.
People who owned property near Mt. Carmel heard automatic fire in the distance... this is not the type of thing you hear from multiple semi-auto's going off at once. They reported it to the local police. Why would teenagers come out of that compound months before the siege, saying they were molested by Koresh? And if they had arrested only Koresh (had they actually the opportunity), what do you think his followers would have done them? The 2nd in command taken over and withdrawal even more into the compound?
The FBI did not use small arms fire... The tanks inserted tear gas into the compound. There were internal conflicts among FBI negotiators as to how the situation should be handled (some field agents did things that were not authorized or sanctioned by CNT).
Randy shot at his neighbors when they drove by his property because he thought they were undercover government agents. Thankfully he never hit any of them... But he was exhibiting all sorts of dangerous and delusional behavior. He was doing things to lead people to believe that, even if he wasn't a great menace to the public, he was at least isolated hermit on edge. If you knew the Aryon's and KKK hung and burned black people, why would you even associate yourself with people like that unless you shared their beliefs?
Again, I'm not saying that the government didn't foul up during both of these incidents (especially Horiuchi), but Koresh and the Weavers were asking for trouble.
Look how the siege at the CSA's compound turned out in 1985? That mission was led by the FBI, and there were over 150 agents at that property. Not a single shot was fired, and all of the CSA came out peacefully. A LAW rocket launcher, full auto's, and explosives were found inside. The arrested leaders were sentenced to their time in prison for their crimes. Did the government decide to have a blood bath there?
The problem with these types of standoffs if the law enforcement involved, have all of these rules and preconceived notions imbedded in their head from their extensive training. And it is very hard for them to deviate from those... and do something logical instead of obeying orders. If the field agents never even arrested these people, they'd never go to trial.
It's all a chain of command, starting with the field officers, going to the corrections officers, to the prosecutor, to the judge. Or perhaps starting with the undercover agent who gather evidence for their arrest warrant to begin with. Or you could say it was congress who voted to make certain things illegal that probably shouldn't be.
You take out one part of that equation, and nothing is going to happen. People wouldn't stand trial if they never made it to the court house. And they wouldn't be sentenced if judges didn't exist.
The system is flawed at every level. But it starts with field officers and cops who completely disregard obvious common sense for nothing more than "upholding the law"0 -
Hook, line, and sinker.
D.0 -
Yup. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
but Koresh and the Weavers were asking for trouble.
Even though, they didn't ask for or deserve the death penality, nor did the innocent children around them.[:(!]
Next time the government (AKA Big Bro.) decides you're "asking for trouble", do you want them to attack and kill you and your family, then sell it to the people, who didn't have a chance to convict you in a court of law, that you were deserving of what you got and, "asking for trouble".
You just keep trusting the politicians who are willing to kill you to make a political point as your protectors and friends. And, be sure you don't hold murderers accountable as long as they are acting on orders from Big Bro..[^]0 -
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quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
In all honesty, I don't think there was severe abuse of government power during either of these incidents. Perhaps minor abuse of government power - but not some terrible inexcusable massacre of tons of innocent people (as was seen in the Oklahoma City bombing).
The needless deaths of women and children alone make this MORE than a severe abuse of power.
Proof that the propaganda machine works.
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all the time".
Abraham Lincoln0 -
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
quote:Originally posted by Clarentavious
but Koresh and the Weavers were asking for trouble.
Even though, they didn't ask for or deserve the death penality, nor did the innocent children around them.[:(!]
Next time the government (AKA Big Bro.) decides you're "asking for trouble", do you want them to attack and kill you and your family, then sell it to the people, who didn't have a chance to convict you in a court of law, that you were deserving of what you got and, "asking for trouble".
You just keep trusting the politicians who are willing to kill you to make a political point as your protectors and friends. And, be sure you don't hold murderers accountable as long as they are acting on orders from Big Bro..[^]
Those of you who are saying things like this can believe whatever the bloody hell you want to... But nobody who has posted in this thread was physically present or involved in either of these events.
You want to talk about freedom and the 1st amendment? Yeah, not only do you have freedom of religion, but you have to right to hold whatever opinion you want to. So if you want to believe the sky is purple, more power to you bright guy.
Tell me something... if the government set out to murder everyone at both of these 2 incidents, how come a large number of the branch davidians walked out of Mt. Carmel alive? Of the hundreds of people there, only 6 were killed during the shootout with the ATF, and 81 died in the suicidal fire.
And just how is it that Randy Weaver, 3 of his kids, and Harris walked out of their house without being mowed down? And Weaver, was convicted of nothing other than missing his original court appointment, then let free? If the government was out to get him, why didn't they bribe or blackmail the jury to see that he was sent to jail for life?
Perhaps since this is the GB forums, I can expect nothing other than opinions like this. And are you going to be the same people to tell me that "all mighty jesus" is going to rain down meteors tomorrow, and kill me during the "last days" Because both the davidians and the Weaver's had similar lines of thinking... that the world was going to end courtesy of bible prophecy. Hmmm, as I'm looking out my window, I don't see burning asteroids falling down the ground. Perhaps the end of the world will be the day after tomorrow *shrugs shoulders*0
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