Ruby Ridge & Waco
The Discovery Times channel (DTMS) last night (Friday 2/10) ran to different special reports on Waco and Ruby Ridge.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
I wonder if anyone else watched them ?
Also, I'd like to hear some opinions on those events from my friends at GB. Y'all have enormous knowledge and great analytical powers, and I'd like the benifit of your thoughts.
By the way, I know we have a bunch of young members who only have history books to forge their views, but I'd like to hear from them too.
I was not a kid during those incidents and watched them on live TV.
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Like Japanese internment camps...
Like small pox infected blankets for Indians...
Like legal abortions...
These events along with Waco and Ruby Ridge are a time of shame for America's government.0 -
I watched Waco live, I have my opinions on it. Everyone does. Ruby was earlier and I think I was too young to really remember it live, but I have heard reports on it now and I have an opinion. Here it goes....for both cases.....WHEN THE POLICE COME TO YOUR HOUSE TO ARREST YOU OR TALK TO YOU....YOU COMPLY, GET A LAWYER AND HAVE THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM WORK IT OUT. flame away......lol 0 -
It's too late when they take to shooting your dog and your kid in the back before you even have a chance to comply and get a lawyer.
Maybe that's why Unintended Consequences was such a darn good book.0 -
Interesting approach.
I kinda wonder how that would have worked for ourr Founding Fathers ??
D.0 -
One thing I find interesting about both of these stories is how they were reported in the main stream liberal media. Remember, they occured before Fox News was even invented and I think ALL of America and the world got a skewed and biased reporting on both. The liberal media cant get away with that now. 0 -
A vicious abuse of Federal power..both cases.
The nutjobs here in America...those that suckle on the teat of government...saw nothing wrong with either atrocity..but what these cases are is...the future of America.
Waco was designed purely to warn Americans with guns..'This will happen to you'...unless you comply with goverment edicts.0 -
I watched the waco stuff live on tv too. I read quite a lot about both incidents, but sorry I don't remember many specifics- although it's all still there to be read.
what I do have to offer, though, is that Soldier Of Fortune magazine did quite a good job of investigative reporting, spanning several issues, for both. what I read about ruby ridge really was shocking. I sold all the back issues I have so I don't have any source material to quote from. if you're really interested in the subject, I'd recommend getting some of those.
opinions? in both events they could have easily avoided deadly confrontation, and it's easy to see how it can be said that they had little or no regard for the lives of those people they beseiged, they lied to all parties involved before and after the incidents, they covered up their guilt, it's apparent that some of the higher-ups had no remorse, it's difficult to tell if any of them had any remorse, and it appears to me that they should not be considered friendly to the public, in fact potentially dangerous.
the very few times I have had contact with FBI agents has reinforced the view that they are not friendly to the public. in fact I also believe them to be pathological liars.
I think to correct the situation, they should all be cleaned out, FBI, ATF, whoever, and start afresh.0 -
I never really heard of Ruby Ridge until I came here and saw it in peoples signature I was to busy being a idiot teenager at the time. Well I finally read about 4 different websites to get a more overall view. The law enforcement screwed the pooch on that one big time. Everyone should of gotten fired and even brought up on charges in my opinion.
Tonight when I'm at work I'll explain more.0 -
The government finds it easier to murder someone and sell them to the public as dangers to or society than admit they made a mistake by trying to make a "National Gun Bust" to support their anti-gun agenda.
All of the guns at Mt. Carmel turned out to be legal, and FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi is nothing less than a murdering sack of stuff!0 -
Those are the kinds of thoughts I appreciate.
Do you think that we are just being paranoid ? I have thought that the government's actions in both cases were beyond belief.
Maybe I'm just naive.
D.0 -
quote:Originally posted by idsman75
It's too late when they take to shooting your dog and your kid in the back before you even have a chance to comply and get a lawyer.
Maybe that's why Unintended Consequences was such a darn good book.
+1
It's also kind of hard to surrender when you fired on first.[:0]
What ever happened to Lon Horiuchi?
He must be proud to have shot a woman in the back who was holding a infant.
[:(!]
Don0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Maybe I'm just naive.
Why, because you think for yourself rather than accepting what ever cover up lie is told to you? I think not. Don't ever put on blinders and trust those who are corrupt with power.0 -
I think the ATF is not up to the standards that we need for a federal law enforcement agency. They should be brought into the FBI then trained and held to FBI standards.
Clinton was known as a micromanager. Then if things went wrong he was no where to be found. I will always wonder if Waco was his screw-up.0 -
...Ruby Ridge and Waco could have been handled a lot differently.
In Waco, the nut job could have been arrested almost any day of the week during his morning jog, or breakfast in town, w/o the confrontation. The guy was a certified nut case, period...MR. GOD himself...and had his "flock" convinced he really was.
That said, when the feds come to your door, it is a very bad idea to start shooting and killing them; that is a battle you will not win, stupidity, on both sides...[;)]
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What is everyone's opinion on the Rainbow Farm siege that took place in Michigan in 2001? The two men who operated the farm were killed by FBI snipers during the two-day siege.
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03.n1305.a07.html0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bloviator
...Ruby Ridge and Waco could have been handled a lot differently.
In Waco, the nut job could have been arrested almost any day of the week during his morning jog, or breakfast in town, w/o the confrontation. The guy was a certified nut case, period...MR. GOD himself...and had his "flock" convinced he really was.
That said, when the feds come to your door, it is a very bad idea to start shooting and killing them; that is a battle you will not win, stupidity, on both sides...[;)]
You are right, the Feds could have arrested Koresh at 100 different and safer times but they chose to swarm the house guns blazing when there were children and women inside.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mowart
I think the ATF is not up to the standards that we need for a federal law enforcement agency. They should be brought into the FBI then trained and held to FBI standards.
Clinton was known as a micromanager. Then if things went wrong he was no where to be found. I will always wonder if Waco was his screw-up.
What a friend who might know told me,
Loyd Benson (former Texas Senator) was the then head of the treasury department which of course heads the ATF. Clinton wanted a large gun bust to solidify his anti-gun agenda and gain support more gun laws and bans.
He leaned on Benson, who used his Texas contacts to try to find something that would look like a cult with guns. Enter the Dividians who were in Mt. Carmel, Texas, just outside of Waco, Texas, had 5 FFL holding members, regularly bought and sold guns, practiced and trained with guns on their private property, and were, to some degree, separatists. They also had deep religious beliefs that were not mainstream.
Those qualifications along with then Attorney General Janet Reno's definition of a cult by her own words,
quote:Attorney General Janet Reno,
"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools for their children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in the Second Amendment; and who distrusts big government.
Any of these may qualify a person as a cultist but certainly more than one of these would cause us to look at this person as a threat, and his family as being in a risk situation that qualified for government interference."
Janet Reno, Attny. Gen., USA
Interview on 60 Minutes, June 26, 1994
And you have the perfect storm. Removed thanks to Jeremy's correction of the facts of Reno never having an interview on 60 Minutes. Thanks Idsman! Clinton, Benson and Reno put their master plan into effect and sent the ATF to Texas. The local Sheriff told them, "No problem, these people will be happy to talk to anyone about their actions", to which the ATF told him to stay out of the way.
Well, we all know the rest of the story. It went as bad as it could go, then Clinton, Benson and Reno distanced themselves from the whole mess and called in the FBI to try to mask and clean up the truth.
Anti-gun democrats at work to save you all from the evil gun owners.
I believe what I was told, and I believe the facts support the story as it was told to me.0 -
Sounds like "Through The Looking Glass" written by a guy who lived in "1984".
D.0 -
dheffey, that's amazing. you can learn something new every day... thaks for saying something about that, I didn't know that and I thought I heard it all. I bet a lot of ppl weren't aware of that either and that's important to know.
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
quote:Originally posted by idsman75
It's too late when they take to shooting your dog and your kid in the back before you even have a chance to comply and get a lawyer.
Maybe that's why Unintended Consequences was such a darn good book.
+1
It's also kind of hard to surrender when you fired on first.[:0]
What ever happened to Lon Horiuchi?
He must be proud to have shot a woman in the back who was holding a infant.
[:(!]
Donhe blew her head off. he claimed to have been aiming for somebody else, who did also get shot in the shoulder with the same shot, but who knows what he was really aiming for or what he wanted to accomplish with that particular shot. undoubtedly he saw the woman (holding her baby) in the line of fire.
the next morning, the feds got on the megaphone and said they had pancakes for breakfast, what did mrs. weaver cook for breakfast?
warriorsfan, you bring up a good point. there are other incidents.0 -
"They" wanted to make a point (condition us) "they" did. Murderers. [:(!][:(!][:(!]
Is it happening again, right now, with Ed Brown?
Click here for the story0 -
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
quote:Originally posted by mowart
quote:Attorney General Janet Reno,
"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools for their children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in the Second Amendment; and who distrusts big government.
Any of these may qualify a person as a cultist but certainly more than one of these would cause us to look at this person as a threat, and his family as being in a risk situation that qualified for government interference."
Janet Reno, Attny. Gen., USA
Interview on 60 Minutes, June 26, 1994
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blreno.htm
The rumored remarks attracted enough attention at the time to spur Rep. James V. Hansen of Utah to query the Justice Dept. as to its authenticity. Hansen's letter elicited the following response, dated March 7, 1995, from the DOJ Office of Legislative Affairs:
This responds to your January 23 letter inquiring about Attorney General Reno's alleged statement on the television program "60 Minutes" defining a "cultist."
The plain fact is that the quote is a hoax. The Attorney General has never been interviewed on "60 Minutes." She has never discussed cults, or tried to define one. There is nothing in the counterfeit quote that guides government policy.
The quote first appeared, to our knowledge, in the August 1993 "Paul Revere Newsletter" of the Christian Defense League in Flora, Illinois. The information came by telephone from a woman in Florida whose name was not noted. The newsletter subsequently ran a retraction.0 -
It doesn't matter if the conspiracy crowd are right and there was a cover up or if there wasn't a cover up. In the U.S. freedom of religion is a Constitutional right. No matter what one thinks about the nuts at Waco, if they were not breaking laws, they should have been left alone. All of their weapons were legal, and legally obtained, and alleged abuses have remained just that, alleged, not proven. The local LEO's said that Koresch came to town almost every day to jog in the park, and do business. They said they could have served him the warrant easily. The government went in with huge overwhelming force, and we all know the results.
Randy Weaver has been painted as a "revolutionary", racist nut, when in fact he was merely a recluse that had decided to withdraw from conventional society and raise his family as he saw fit. Over a long period of time, an undercover agent finally convinced Weaver to saw the barrel off an old scattergun with a cash offer so high that Weaver, a very poor man, couldn't refuse. Entrapment, pure and simple. The local sherrif said that he knew Weaver well, knew he wasn't a violent man, and could have went up and got Weaver with no problems. You think the Government sent overwhelming force to Waco? Considering the number of "enemies" at Ruby Ridge, it made the Waco effort seem small. The sniper, Lon Horiuchi, says he didn't know it was a woman holding a baby when he murdered Mrs. Weaver. All here would know that Horiuchi was a professional marksman equipped with a state of the art rifle, and a state of the art variable scope. Does anyone think that, at close range, he could compose a sight picture, and squeeze one off without knowing exactly what his target was? When he testified they had him in a screened enclosure so he could not be identified by the general public.
These actions by Government leaders, agents, and agencies were in blatant disregard of the Constitution, which, lest anyone forget, is law. Serious charges should have been brought against LOTS of people up to and including some in high positions. When these incidents went down I was completely shocked at the Governments actions, and remain so to this day.0 -
One can look at Janet Reno and tell she is the devil's sister. Evil in it's most pure form. Both of those incidents are etched into my mind and I shall never forget as long as I live. Idaho was going to try those murderers from Ruby Ridge. I wonder what ever happened to that? 0 -
Laying siege to someones property and then killing them over a few hundred dollars in unpaid taxes (the National Firearms Taxes due on the unregistered sawed-off shotguns) is nothing but a naked abuse of Federal power. Waco defies my understanding since it appears that everyone who knew David K. said that if anyone wanted to talk to him they simply had to drive up to the compound, knock on the door and then ask to see him! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by RunForest
I watched Waco live, I have my opinions on it. Everyone does. Ruby was earlier and I think I was too young to really remember it live, but I have heard reports on it now and I have an opinion. Here it goes....for both cases.....WHEN THE POLICE COME TO YOUR HOUSE TO ARREST YOU OR TALK TO YOU....YOU COMPLY, GET A LAWYER AND HAVE THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM WORK IT OUT. flame away......lol
You sir, need to see this show now then make those statements!!!!!!!!!
Waco: The Rules of Engagement [:(]0 -
Both happened in large part because we have started having police officers (federal, state, and local) dress and act like soldiers. We have shifted from an emphasis on having police officers protect and serve the citizens, to an emphasis on making sure no police officers get hurt. Virtually every COPS episode ends with a cop saying, "Well, no cops were hurt and we all go home safe, and that's the most important thing."
And from there you get no-knock warrants and police officers all dressed in body armor and "dramatic entrys." What you see the police doing in the streets of America is exactly what you see the Marines doing in the steets of Baghdad. And lo and behold, the cops start acting a whole lot like soldiers.
Case in point: local fellow is an eye doctor, and likes to place bets with a local bookie. The local police have been trying to build a case that he's a bookie, and haven't really had any luck. Now, again, this guy is an eye doctor, has NEVER been arrested before and stands accused at WORST of taking bets.
The local cops could have arrested him at work or in his front yard or whatever. Walk up to him, tell him he's under arrest, take him away. Instead, they call out a SWAT team, a freaking SWAT team, to arrest him. One of the SWAT officers jumps out of his van, points a .45 at the guys chest, and shoots him. Dead. The officer later said, of course, that "the gun just went off." Yeah. (Oh, and the cop got off scot-free. Really. No charges filed against him. Pulls his gun and shoots a guy dead and nothing is going to happen to him.)
Why, why, why? Why a SWAT team to arrest a guy who's betting on football. David Koresh could have been arrested on the street in Waco. He and all of his followers went into town all the time and they had no history of violence.
When cops start dressing like soldiers, carrying the same weapons soldiers carry, and acting like soldiers, they start treating citizens like the enemy.0 -
There were all wacked 0 -
Our goverment is wacked 0 -
I imagine that a great many folks think it inevitable for more interaction of this sort between the government and the public. 0 -
I guess it is too bad that David and Randy were american citizens. Now had they been illegials, the ACLU would have had someone's A$$. The two border patrol agents are pretty good example. The guy (RON?) who shot Randy's wife should have been tried for manslaughter at the least and NEVER work in LE again. Just my opinion. Tom 0
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