So I had a situation at work today....
I am a shift supervisor at my company, and I was asked to sit in today for an employee's termination. Our Human Resources manager is a female, and she is excellent at her job: very professional, shrewd, and knowledgeable. I have a great deal of respect for her, and I'm flattered that she asked me to sit in as a witness. I think I was also asked to be there "just in case" things went ugly or violent.
So while we're sitting there and the (ex-) employee is having his life shattered, I thought to myself, what if things go bad? Our company has a VERY strict "no guns" policy that I assume could mean my own termination if caught with one on company property.
I don't want this to turn into a "you shouldn't work there because of their gun policy" thread, but instead focus on the hypothetical - should things turn violent, do I risk my job by using my firearm to defend my self or others against someone else's violence?
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So while we're sitting there and the (ex-) employee is having his life shattered, I thought to myself, what if things go bad? Our company has a VERY strict "no guns" policy that I assume could mean my own termination if caught with one on company property.
I don't want this to turn into a "you shouldn't work there because of their gun policy" thread, but instead focus on the hypothetical - should things turn violent, do I risk my job by using my firearm to defend my self or others against someone else's violence?
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Again with the personal attacks. What did I do to upset you so much? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
There is no way I'm going into a place where there is a level playing field. The way to always win is to make sure the odds are all in your favor.
I agree with you in theory, but unfortunately my life doesn't always afford me the ability to stack the deck.[8D]0 -
Your posts portray yourself as someone with little knowledge about firearms, someone willing to break company rules (you and only you can answer why you feel the need to do that) and the company "enforcer".
You stated that the discharged employee didn't work for you, yet you know that he was "100% in violation of company policy". Yet you also state that you are 100% in violation of company policy by carrying a concealed firearm into your place of employ.
You appear to have a double standard.
People like you upset me. And people like you in positions of power really upset me.0 -
Sorry you feel that way. All excellent reasons for personal attacks, though. You sound like just the kind of person to represent lawful gun owners. [/sarcasm]
Hate to see how you react similarly when you meet people in person who "really upset you."0 -
Come ON, guys.
D.0 -
Cal,
I find this thread interesting as it is a situation that I could find myself in. First, I would never take a bullet for anyone that isn't family, especially if they were an HR rep. Like it or not, that's just me. Being a supervisor, part of your job is knowing people and how to deal with them. If you knew this guy and were around him any, you should have a feel as to how he was going to take it and if he were a threat or not. They asked you to witness this meeting, were there consequensces if you refused? Let HR do their job a you do yours. I'm sure they don't pay you enough to take an azz whoopin' much less a bullet. Dissection is the better part of valor.0 -
Now you have a situation on Gunbroker. Happy now? Don 0 -
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
Your posts portray yourself as someone with little knowledge about firearms, someone willing to break company rules (you and only you can answer why you feel the need to do that) and the company "enforcer".
You stated that the discharged employee didn't work for you, yet you know that he was "100% in violation of company policy". Yet you also state that you are 100% in violation of company policy by carrying a concealed firearm into your place of employ.
You appear to have a double standard.
People like you upset me. And people like you in positions of power really upset me.
+10
Some people can't see their own ignorance.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
In the past, when I have been confronted by that exact situation, with the same suspicions that you had, upon entering the room, I have immediately shot and killed the terminating employee, thus adding emphasis to the company's term "termination".
In each case I was praised by company management, and tasked to dispose of the trash.
It is the only rational approach when one is confronted with a situation that one suspects may lead to possible violence.
I have also used this technique when confronted with challenging interpersonal relationships outside the workplace.
It certainly simplifies one's life.
Doug
Doug,
You have one really good sense of humor. I really enjoy reading your posts.
Ya made my day. [:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by freemind
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
Your posts portray yourself as someone with little knowledge about firearms, someone willing to break company rules (you and only you can answer why you feel the need to do that) and the company "enforcer".
You stated that the discharged employee didn't work for you, yet you know that he was "100% in violation of company policy". Yet you also state that you are 100% in violation of company policy by carrying a concealed firearm into your place of employ.
You appear to have a double standard.
People like you upset me. And people like you in positions of power really upset me.
+10
Some people can't see their own ignorance.
Agreed, just like some mods are fair and some think they are a Starrett Model 711FSZ. Don0 -
Having just read this thread I wonder if you were invited so you would understand the situation when they fire you for violating company policy. You think no one knows you carry on site, however my experience is that someone who carries on site usually let's the cat out of the bag at some point either intentionally or unintentionally. It is very difficult to conceal in a work place over a long period of time. At least to those who know what to look for.
Who do you think will attend your meeting with the "Shrewd" (your word not mine) HR lady?
PS Now that is a good 400th post if I must say so myself :-)0 -
quote:Originally posted by cce1302
So you think their stated policy is "no guns" but they like to keep you close by because you carry?
It seemed to work for that church in Colorado.0 -
NEVER LET ON that you carry unless the situation requires lethal force, which is almost never. I would hit him with a weapon of opportunity and NOT reach for the peice if AT ALL POSSIBLE. That way,..no harm no foul and you take a step up the corporate ladder due to her gratitutde and the "hero" stories to follow. Reach for the peice, and even when you save the day,..your carrying will get you terminated. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
Agreed, just like some mods are fair and some think they are a Starrett Model 711FSZ. Don
That is PRICELESS! "The Last Word" indeed.0 -
You are suggesting that you are armed against company policy, but might choose to let someone else be shot, so that you are not diciplined or terminated for violating policy, right?
Do you have to think, or are you just stirring.
1. you are in the wrong for violating policy.
2. someone elses life is more important than your job.0 -
That is a decision only you will be able to make.
I am lucky, our company has no policy concerning firearms, I guess don't ask, don't tell. Pretty sure the owner packs, he does have a carry concealed permit and is known to be pretty pro gun and a strong second amendment supporter. A couple of folks carry, a couple don't, a few just don't care about things like that, they are into other things that have become a focus of their lives. Even know of one that would if he could own a firearm, in a way glad he can't and don't.0 -
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
You are suggesting that you are armed against company policy, but might choose to let someone else be shot, so that you are not diciplined or terminated for violating policy, right?
Do you have to think, or are you just stirring.
1. you are in the wrong for violating policy.
2. someone elses life is more important than your job.
No, I certainly wasn't stirring. I was asking a completely hypothetical "what if" question. Instead of just one opinion (my own), I chose to ask here for many. The purpose of this forum is for discussion, right? I just wanted to talk in out instead of bouncing the scenario in my brain.
Tanks for all the inputs and advice. Some of it was very good![8D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by callktulu
...should things turn violent, do I risk my job by using my firearm to defend my self or others against someone else's violence?
[?][?][?][?][?]There's really only one question and you're the only person who knows the answer.
Could you live with yourself if you failed to use your firearm to prevent the death of someone just because you feared losing your job?0 -
Where do you work? What do you carry (name of holster, too)? Describe your round of choice, please. Do you handload? Do you carry extra rounds? How many? How often do you go to the range? Is the HR lady hot? 0 -
Did the ex-employee put on his application that he was a people person?
You might want to check that out...0 -
I'd avoid drawing it at almost all costs.
If you do, you better have a damn good reason.0 -
Callktulu...you need to think of many aspects about you carrying at work...they most likely will terminate you post haste if they discover it. Depending upon your state, it can also be grounds for legal charges against you and possible loss of your concealed permit.
Stop and think about the message that you are sending to your employer, fellow employees and the general public:
-Employer: basically saying that you do not care what their policies are...you will do what you want. As an employer, I would question whether you carried out my directives as I asked or if you took shortcuts that may impact my customers
-Fellow employees: the supervisor violates the rules so I can. When it comes time to discipline an employee they will blow you off and you have lost their respect. Supervisors must lead by example
-General public: you have been trusted to carry concealed, but now feel that you are above the rules about where to carry. We must follow the guidelines since they exist and if you or any of us willingly violate them, then we must expect to pay the price.0 -
quote:Originally posted by callktulu
I don't think he carries. I was just assuming he would get physically violent with his hands or a paperweight. Something like that.
Let me clarify my original post by saying I have NO DOUBT that if he drew a weapon, mine would come out, too, regardless of company policy. My original scenario was meant if he got violent without a firearm as a weapon.
Did I mention I'm a small guy, about 5' 7" and 140 #s. I'm not going to win any fistfights (unless my liberal sister wanted to give me a try in the ring).
Now wait a minute here... your 5'7"? Darn fella you're tall. I'm only 5'5", maybe 5'6" with thick socks on. Now I'm closer to 170, and reasonably fit, but you can't shoot an unarmed man. Law says "equal force". I would maybe suggest Moi Tia, Sanchen Ru, or Japanese Jui Jit Su lessons. Every guy needs to be able to fill that void between being aware/alert and using your weapon. Now if the guy draws a deadly weapon you would have to use equal force.0 -
Why not pose the question to your boss about how he would expect you to defend yourself in these potentially risky situations.
After all, the personnel officer acknowledges a risk exists or you wouldn't be asked to be present.
If he doesn't acknowledge putting you at risk, try to excuse yourself
from that duty.
Talking guns might antagonize him unless he initiates the subject.0 -
quote:Originally posted by woodshermit
Where do you work? What do you carry (name of holster, too)? Describe your round of choice, please. Do you handload? Do you carry extra rounds? How many? How often do you go to the range? Is the HR lady hot?
Nah, she not what y'all would think of as hot, but I think she's an attractive woman.0 -
My employer has a no weapons policy. What they don't know about what's in my vehicle doesn't hurt them. But taking it INSIDE would IMO be stupid. 0 -
don't figure it is very smart to be the company unofficial volunteer security force...you could be far out on a liability limb by yourself if something goes wrong... 0 -
Your company doesn't have a trap door?
Damn...0 -
My $0.02,
1. If your company has a "No Guns" policy you are risking your career by carrying on company property. If you are discovered you could be terminated immediately depending on what your policy manual states. Leave it in the car. If you have been given supervisory responsibilities you are considered capable. You also are probably thought to know and enforce company policies.
2. I am sure that there is good reason that someone was terminated so close to Christmas. The terminated employee may have been stealing or falsifying information. May have been putting all your jobs at risk. If there is no reason for the termination then there is a course of action the person can follow to fight a wrongful termination.
3. We try to have a witness in all our HR meetings positive or negative. If you are not comfortable tell your HR manager. Also pay attention to the words used you may have to do it one day. It is not easy regardless of cause.
I am not an HR professional but I am responsible for our HR department.
Please leave the gun in the car.
Rusty
PS quick story. Years ago we had a large sewing department in which at least 40 women and 5 men worked. One day an estranged and very angry boyfriend came in off the street looking for his girl waving a big knife. No less than 20 people drew down on him with carry weapons before he could reach her. We were very surprised but not as much as the boyfriend as he knelt very quietly and waited for the police. Changed our gun policy after that, also locked the doors.0 -
It is far better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
I only refrain from carrying at airports and government offices.
I obey the laws.
When lives may be at stake, rules have no meaning to me.
Doug0
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