Union question?
Union question?
Okay guys; without all the slander, do you think unions in general are a good thing?
Personally in the case of wal-mart I think they are.
What say you about unions?
Okay guys; without all the slander, do you think unions in general are a good thing?
Personally in the case of wal-mart I think they are.
What say you about unions?
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Unoins were a good idea when employers were unenlightened. They are a bad idea now. 0 -
Unions are no longer needed, and actually do more damage to this country than to benefit it in any tangible way. 0 -
Once upon a time unions were badly needed to ensure a safe work place. Today unions seem concerned only with collective baganing issues for higher wages, more benefits, lowering productivity and providing members with more time off. Since labor costs are the most expensive component of running any business this has lead directly to the elimination of many jobs over the past thirty years. 0 -
In my work experience, every union I encountered had been installed by (bad, incompetent) management. 0 -
Overall: bad. They use union dues to support political stances that many of their members do not support, but still force all the members to pay those dues. Teacher's unions are notorious for this and will go after teachers who try to get out of paying dues. And the union bosses have been corrupt since unions started. As a non-union person that works in federal government, I can tell you that the federal unions let people get away with doing nothing and as many are minorities or have disability protection of some sort, they are untouchable. I work with one black woman who is also hearing impaired, she is hardly ever at work and noone ever knows where she is, but she gets her good annual review and annual raise just like everyone else. I have seen MANY union members come into work, spend an hour at the cafeteria for breakfast, read the paper for a few hours, spend another hour or so for lunch, talk for an hour or two and go home. They literally do nothing for days on end but nothing ever happens to any of them. We have to staff up offices with more people than are actually needed, just to get things done, because there are so many people that don't do anything. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Unions are no longer needed, and actually do more damage to this country than to benefit it in any tangible way.
+10 -
My buddy Lorne was a firefighter in Clayton County Georgia. This is the south side of suburban Atlanta.
He just retired. His county firefighters were unionized. Here is how they figure the pension. If you worked thirty years, you take the average pay of your last three years, and that is your pension. This includes overtime.
So if you averaged $70K in pay for each of your last three years, you get that annually for the rest of your life. Plus, you get medical insurance very cheap. Lorne's wife is 59 with bad medical problems, has already had back surgery. Insurance for both, $70 a month. This would cost probably $1,000 per month on the open market, if she was insurable at all.
What is crazy about this pension, is it INCLUDES overtime for the last three years. So, what guys do, is during most of their careers they get outside jobs in construction, installing home generators etc.
For the last three years, they pile on the overtime. Any day you work overtime you will continue to be paid for during the rest of your life.
Lorne and his wife had moved 100 miles away from the fire station. Just at the end of his 26th year, he bought a house near the station, so that he could be close by in case the chance for overtime came up.
He would work a shift, and hope someone would call in sick. He told me that his pay was $700 for a 24 hour overtime shift.
I believe that his pay, as a Paramedic/firefighter, was about $55K to begin with.
If you hit 20 overtime shifts in a year, that adds $14K to your annual pay, and to your pension, if you do it for each of those last three years. Lorne got that many overtime shifts in, and maybe more. So his pension is around $70K, with insurance so cheap it may as well be free.
Lorne had gotten to work his last five years at the slowest substation in Clayton County. He told me that that substation averaged one call every three days.
Firefighters deserve pensions after thirty years service. I would say that $20K annually would be a good firefighters pension.
This union is going to hammer the taxpayers and property owners for a long time to pay these outlandish pensions.
Any private company that paid pensions like this would go broke. Wait, General Motors is trying that right now. As a matter of fact, I believe the autoworkers union guys get much less than the Clayton County firefighters.
Lorne's big problem these days is figuring out how to spend his dough. He bought a big, brand new diesel pickup. Last I talked to him he was driving out to Wyoming to see about investing in a ski resort.0 -
The American worker would be making the same wages and working under the same conditions as the Mexicans today if it were not for the Unions. We need them to maintain a balance, but many of them are corrupt and end up either putting the company out of business or cause members to loose jobs due to outsourcing.
We need them, but they need to be controlled too.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Unoins were a good idea when employers were unenlightened. They are a bad idea now.
You think all employers are "enlightened"? A lot of workers have to force these companies into something resembling a fair shake. I'd hate to see this country today with out the labor movement. Do the schools still teach how the labor situation was before the union struggles? Children as young as eight years old, sixty hour plus work weeks, grossly unsafe work conditions, no rights, etc., and all this for starvation wages. A lot of people died in the labor "wars" to bring about fair work places. This is all going backwards, really starting with Reagan busting the air traffic controllers union, and continuing today with this unbridled illegal immigration. Enlightened? JMO, and I haven't been a union member for twenty plus years. Over the years I have noticed that many workers who slam unions sure are quick to take a good union job when the opportunity presents itself.0 -
quote:dheffley Posted
The American worker would be making the same wages and working under the same conditions as the Mexicans today if it were not for the Unions. We need them to maintain a balance, but many of them are corrupt and end up either putting the company out of business or cause members to loose jobs due to outsourcing.
We need them, but they need to be controlled too.
Agree with Heff. Some are good some are bad just like everything else. Our union is very employer friendly.0 -
I have been a member of a union and I have been on the Management side. Both experiences in dealing with the union have been less than
satisfactory.0 -
Posted by Dheff:
quote:The American worker would be making the same wages and working under the same conditions as the Mexicans today if it were not for the Unions.
It should also be mentioned that, with few exeptions, wages for most jobs today are based off of a "union scale".
So whether you're a union member or not, you probably have a union to thank for your standard of living.0 -
I'm a union member. Not by choice. The relationship between the company and the union sucks to the point that if there weren't a union here, 1/2 of the employees would be gone. Not myself. I keep a decent relationship with the company with mutual respect. Something that seems to be a thing of the past. 0 -
If my employer had his way.I would not be able to live the way I do.I work damn hard for my money just like most people do.Sometimes people work hard and don't get compensated by a good wage.That is what wal-mart is all about.Work And get pissed on.Thanks to my local United Steelwokkers 2603 I have a good wage to live on. 0 -
I belonged to the Carpenters Union and then the Deputy Sheriff's Assoc. I will have to say that when the employers misbehave, of mistreat, then unions are the only weapon at hand.
I still get a magazine,a PORAC magazine, and there are stories in them of employers still misbehaving.
So I would have to say that they are still a requirement, to stop management from cheating the employee.0 -
Check on the rate of union membership. Folding faster than a bad poker hand. Due to lack of leadership by the SENIOR members of the unions. Work with some merit shop contractors that pay MORE than the collective bargaining contactors. But there is no "one size fits all". Depends on the union, and on the local. Some good, some lousy. 0 -
I was Assistant Chief Steward for our local for 10 years. I recently resigned due to the abuse of the employees hiding behind the union when they were dead to rights wrong. My local's president said I had a bad attitude when it came to representing certain employees. I guess he is right. The final straw was when our employer tried to fire an employee for missing 55 days out of 115 with no proper excuse. The woman told management during the hearing that she just didn't feel like going to work on those days! The union got her job back with back pay and no loss of seniority. I blew up...asked the question to the local as to when do we represent the workers of the local and stop representing the slackers...I was told I had a bad attitude. I couldn't change the problem so I resigned. Next term I am running for president of the local...might try to change some things then. 0 -
I'm in this terms race for stewards. The election is over on the 1st. 0 -
Unions sure aint what they used to be, but do away with them, and see what happens. 0 -
I am also a union member in a closed shop.
In some ways unions have changed, some have become more like the big business they claim to protect their members from. Interested more in raising the number of dues paying members than the quaility of wages for their skilled workers.
Unions used to be about good quality work from skilled workers. Unions also had a hand in training their members in the trade that they practiced. Now they will try to organize any business that they can. Almost all unions are members of the AFL-CIO, with "no raid" rules which discourages competition between the unions.
Unions are in the pocket of the Democratic party. The only time I have ever seen them not back the Democratic party canidate, is when the politician supported a "right to work" bill.
Now that I am done bashing them, let me say that in my current job, there is no way that I would work for them without one. I have a contract. It may not be a great one, but it is enforceable. I have the ability to protect myself and my fellow workers from unfair treatment by company individuals. It has been my experience that a lot of management/union problems usually are caused by a small group of people on either side of the fence.
And how about the rash of CEO's taking large compensation packages after running a company into the ground? Who stands up for the worker?
The union's original missions were honorable ones. To train and protect skilled labor workers. The problem is most have not changed with the times. They are blinded by their self serving goals which has rendered them obsolite. Instead of working out ways to be a benefit to their employers, some are content to run them into the ground.
Just my $0.02, take it for what its worth.0 -
Good grief....another Union thread
Just had to stir up the hornet's nest didn't ya? [;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by T1jetmech
I was Assistant Chief Steward for our local for 10 years. I recently resigned due to the abuse of the employees hiding behind the union when they were dead to rights wrong. My local's president said I had a bad attitude when it came to representing certain employees. I guess he is right. The final straw was when our employer tried to fire an employee for missing 55 days out of 115 with no proper excuse. The woman told management during the hearing that she just didn't feel like going to work on those days! The union got her job back with back pay and no loss of seniority. I blew up...asked the question to the local as to when do we represent the workers of the local and stop representing the slackers...I was told I had a bad attitude. I couldn't change the problem so I resigned. Next term I am running for president of the local...might try to change some things then.
I have felt your pain on that one. I also was a shop steward for my shop and resigned for the same reason you did. I got tired of wasting my time on workers that caused their own problems. Now I free lance my services if needed. Since I no longer take the stewards pay, I feel that I can defend whoever I choose and dont feel obligated like I used too.0 -
Unions at one time had a good reason to exist but this is long past. Now their only purpose is to benefit the leaders of the unions and not the everyday working guy.
Why are Ford and Chevy going bankrupt? unions
Why did Ford and Chevy start building their vehicles in Mexico and Canada? unions
Why is every manufacturer in the US outsourcing overseas? unions
I agree that every worker deserves to be paid for the work that he provides but I do not agree that it involves a break twice an hour, 2 hour lunches, and a 40% raise each year. While these are exaggerations, it's a typical goal and perception of the typical union member.
And yes, I grew up in a union household. My dad and grandad were card carrying members of UMWA. First time I had ever seen people shoot at police and armed national guard was during a strike when I was a kid. Saw several of those situations growing up...
My grandad and dad liked their jobs and felt that they got paid quite well for what they did but whenever the union decided to push some issue and strike we would get to spend a few nice weeks with food stamps and bill collectors.0 -
Hi Everyone: I gotta get in on this one. I have been a union member for 30 yrs. When I got hired onto the Phx Fire Dept. the city manager said to a meeting of the union membrship;"I buy firemen the same way I buy floor tile". Meaning of course from the lowest bidder. He was an "agent provocatuer" and was doing the bidding for the power brokers in Phx who wanted us to go out on strike. Our union leadership was slow to take a work action and instead offered to work with the city and change things to be more productive, in effect earning a wage increace.
The days of unreasonable demands R gone forever, IE Ford Motor Company. If they had negociated contracts back in the 70s on increased production and efficiancy they might not be wondering where their jobs went. If they had made good faith efforts to curtail sick leave usage then the cost of their healthcare might not have gone out of control.
In todays world U gotta give something to get something, having said that I still am thankful for the pioneers who suffered and "died" to get us representation and right to bargain laws. Believe me if wealthy people didn't have to, we sould still be working 100 hrs a week and have nothing but dirt to eat.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Unions are no longer needed, and actually do more damage to this country than to benefit it in any tangible way.
+10 -
in some cases like the police and fireman I think they are very needed,,,Labor unions like the UAW and other are bad,,,very bad,,for the companies and America,, 0 -
quote:Originally posted by sweaver
Unions at one time had a good reason to exist but this is long past. Now their only purpose is to benefit the leaders of the unions and not the everyday working guy.
Why are Ford and Chevy going bankrupt? unions
Why did Ford and Chevy start building their vehicles in Mexico and Canada? unions
Why is every manufacturer in the US outsourcing overseas? unions
I agree that every worker deserves to be paid for the work that he provides but I do not agree that it involves a break twice an hour, 2 hour lunches, and a 40% raise each year. While these are exaggerations, it's a typical goal and perception of the typical union member.
And yes, I grew up in a union household. My dad and grandad were card carrying members of UMWA. First time I had ever seen people shoot at police and armed national guard was during a strike when I was a kid. Saw several of those situations growing up...
My grandad and dad liked their jobs and felt that they got paid quite well for what they did but whenever the union decided to push some issue and strike we would get to spend a few nice weeks with food stamps and bill collectors.
I'm not trying to start a different arguement, but Ford and GM are in trouble because the Japs are outselling them. There are reasons behind this.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kristov
Once upon a time unions were badly needed to ensure a safe work place. Today unions seem concerned only with collective baganing issues for higher wages, more benefits, lowering productivity and providing members with more time off. Since labor costs are the most expensive component of running any business this has lead directly to the elimination of many jobs over the past thirty years.
I agree with Kristov's summary above!
Freightlinner announced this week that they were laying off 50% of the Union labor force due to reduced demand for trucks. They also noted that they were done producing Freightlinner trucks at the Portland plant and from now on they would just produce Western Star Trucks. Well Western Star is not a big seller so the message is they are getting rid of the Union.
In the announcement they talked about their plants in North Carolina and Mexico. The chatted about the new huge plant under construction in Mexico.
Guess what? They don't have to pay Union Wages or pay Union Benefits in Mexico folks. Ford and GM will follow suit in order to survive and over time almost all products will be made in Mexico.
With "Free Trade" that both parties supported this had to be the outcome. We are either competitive with foreign labor costs or we move the production offshore. Its a shame but thats how it works.
But the unions will thrive in the Government sector because they own the Democratic Party.0 -
I'm a Union member also. I have been on both sides of the topic, I think each person can spout pro's and con's about unions. Don't blame the union for company's moving there plants to a 3rd world company. Even without unions I doubt anyone in the U.S.A. would work as many hours for the pay that they will in mexico. 0 -
Where's the Plumber,He'll set us straight[8D].I personally don't care,I'll be self employed(barely) in 4 months.My thoughts in the past have been,if you believe you are a valuable employee,go to your boss and negotiate a salary you both can live and be content with.If you can't come to an agreement move on,and do it until you and your boss are mutually content.You have to believe in yourself and your talents or accept the fact you are'nt as good as you think but if you are above average(and that ain't sayin' much now-days)you are a sought after commodity.Name your price and negotiate from there.A union can steal your soul if you let it.Especially if you find yourself getting angry about the slacker making as much as the talented guy always bustin' his hump.If that's you,move on, make your own way and name your price. 0
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