Union question?
Union question?
Okay guys; without all the slander, do you think unions in general are a good thing?
Personally in the case of wal-mart I think they are.
What say you about unions?
Okay guys; without all the slander, do you think unions in general are a good thing?
Personally in the case of wal-mart I think they are.
What say you about unions?
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What do you think? 0 -
Do away with unions, and see just how far the talented guy busting his hump can get when he goes to his employer and tells him he deserves a raise. I agree, many unions go way to far with a lot of B.S. However if it were not for unions we would be working 8 days a week, 30 hours a day, for 2 bucks an hour straight time. Think I'm wrong, I have a friend that resides in El Paso Texas. He said go and ask your boss for a raise, see what he does. He says he'll tell you go ahead and find another job, I know of 500 illegals who'll do what you do for 3 bucks less an hour than you currently make. He makes 8 bucks an hour to run an Amada Pega series C.N.C turrent punch press. Not a lock and load position, he has to write his programs. Not a job just anyone can do. quote:Originally posted by sothere
Where's the Plumber,He'll set us straight[8D].I personally don't care,I'll be self employed(barely) in 4 months.My thoughts in the past have been,if you believe you are a valuable employee,go to your boss and negotiate a salary you both can live and be content with.If you can't come to an agreement move on,and do it until you and your boss are mutually content.You have to believe in yourself and your talents or accept the fact you are'nt as good as you think but if you are above average(and that ain't sayin' much now-days)you are a sought after commodity.Name your price and negotiate from there.A union can steal your soul if you let it.Especially if you find yourself getting angry about the slacker making as much as the talented guy always bustin' his hump.If that's you,move on, make your own way and name your price.0 -
Laws protecting workers are weak and unevenly enforced. Most workers totally believe they have more control/power over their employer/job than they really do. If someone in a non-union workplace does have a fair, generous and good employer they should feel happy and luck. However, that employer might not be so nice just because they truly are nice. It just might be because that nice employer is acting nice to keep the idea of unionizing out of the heads of their employees.
Just as with good and bad politicians, gun owners, sports figures, hollywood stars, neighbors,etc. there will always be good and bad unions. If you work someplace and because of your particular situation you cannot just up and move to a new employer if you start getting screwed over, and the incomplete labor laws can't help you, then if you don't have a GOOD union then you are screwed. Unless you are one of the naive ones who think you can just go out and somehow, someway, attract some big-shot lawyer to work for free and spend hundreds of thousands of free lawyer billing hours fighting for you.
Even when employer-employee relations are fairly good, it doesn't hurt to have a GOOD, honest and fair (they are out there, I'm in one) union just to keep the balance of power healthy equal between all parties. Few people here have ever needed a gun to save their innocent lives, but still most here believe it is better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it.
So it is with a GOOD union. Better to have it and not need it. A GOOD union can even be healthy for BOTH company and workers. One reason being that the workers know what they can reasonably expect from their employer because basically the only relationship they now have is clearly (usually) described in the collective bargaining agreement. And likewise, the employer knows generally what to expect.
There will be people along who will try to shred my position on this. Usually they are the ones who are or have been in a position of power regarding workers and resent the fact that they can't/weren't able to mistreat the workers anyway they felt like treating them. Or they worked at a company that had a bad union (yes, they exist) and were too lazy to work to turn that bad union into a good union. Or they just might be someone who doesn't think the American workers should have any power over their employer. Instead, some people think that an employer having total power over employees is just and good.
Such anti-union people think that after all, if the workers don't like it, don't they have the right to quit and move on and find another job? Course, the worker's family may go hungry for awhile, and the worker may lose his retirement and medical coverage and have to go to work someplace else for half the wages. But for union haters, that usually seems fair rather than have a GOOD union.
Flame away, union haters. I've stated my piece.0 -
I believe that unions have had their day - a glorious one at that - but no longer serve the American worker in the way they once did. There was a time, not too long ago in our Nation's past, when unions protected the worker and made sure that exploitation would not not occur. Now, however, I believe taht they've become more of a disadvantage in that they stifle natural increases in productivity and inflate overhead, particulary retirement benefits.
My dad was union all of his life but I myself have never been. However, I have had many years of firsthand experience in management within a union environment.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dak To 68
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Unoins were a good idea when employers were unenlightened. They are a bad idea now.
You think all employers are "enlightened"? A lot of workers have to force these companies into something resembling a fair shake. I'd hate to see this country today with out the labor movement. Do the schools still teach how the labor situation was before the union struggles? Children as young as eight years old, sixty hour plus work weeks, grossly unsafe work conditions, no rights, etc., and all this for starvation wages. A lot of people died in the labor "wars" to bring about fair work places. This is all going backwards, really starting with Reagan busting the air traffic controllers union, and continuing today with this unbridled illegal immigration. Enlightened? JMO, and I haven't been a union member for twenty plus years. Over the years I have noticed that many workers who slam unions sure are quick to take a good union job when the opportunity presents itself.
I have agreement with most of what you say except for the part in red above. I was fairly close to the air traffic controllers union situation and they got what they deserved when most of them got fired. For example, if I hire you to take care of my sick relative and you sign a contract promising not to strike and walk off the job (binding arbitration instead for any disagreements) and you DO endanger my relative by walking off the job and you expect to force me to give you everything you want and then you come back to work, would you really be surprised if I fired you? That is what happend to the air traffic controllers. They had a written contract agreeing not to walk off the job because the safety of America airlines and passangers needed them. Yet they walked over wanting higher wages when they were already very, very highly paid.
So see everyone, I don't always support the idea of unions. At least not bad ones.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sig232
quote:Originally posted by kristov
Once upon a time unions were badly needed to ensure a safe work place. Today unions seem concerned only with collective baganing issues for higher wages, more benefits, lowering productivity and providing members with more time off. Since labor costs are the most expensive component of running any business this has lead directly to the elimination of many jobs over the past thirty years.
I agree with Kristov's summary above!
Freightlinner announced this week that they were laying off 50% of the Union labor force due to reduced demand for trucks. They also noted that they were done producing Freightlinner trucks at the Portland plant and from now on they would just produce Western Star Trucks. Well Western Star is not a big seller so the message is they are getting rid of the Union.
In the announcement they talked about their plants in North Carolina and Mexico. The chatted about the new huge plant under construction in Mexico.
Guess what? They don't have to pay Union Wages or pay Union Benefits in Mexico folks. Ford and GM will follow suit in order to survive and over time almost all products will be made in Mexico.
With "Free Trade" that both parties supported this had to be the outcome. We are either competitive with foreign labor costs or we move the production offshore. Its a shame but thats how it works.
But the unions will thrive in the Government sector because they own the Democratic Party.
I agree with Sig (maybe the first time that we have both agreed on anything). When the last union member in the private sector is laid to rest you can rest assured that the unions which most government employees belong to will be as strong (and their service as bad) as ever.0 -
A fine damned post by T.R Fox. A fine damned post indeed. Keep up the good work baby. Tell it like it bleenin is.quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Laws protecting workers are weak and unevenly enforced. Most workers totally believe they have more control/power over their employer/job than they really do. If someone in a non-union workplace does have a fair, generous and good employer they should feel happy and luck. However, that employer might not be so nice just because they truly are nice. It just might be because that nice employer is acting nice to keep the idea of unionizing out of the heads of their employees.
Just as with good and bad politicians, gun owners, sports figures, hollywood stars, neighbors,etc. there will always be good and bad unions. If you work someplace and because of your particular situation you cannot just up and move to a new employer if you start getting screwed over, and the incomplete labor laws can't help you, then if you don't have a GOOD union then you are screwed. Unless you are one of the naive ones who think you can just go out and somehow, someway, attract some big-shot lawyer to work for free and spend hundreds of thousands of free lawyer billing hours fighting for you.
Even when employer-employee relations are fairly good, it doesn't hurt to have a GOOD, honest and fair (they are out there, I'm in one) union just to keep the balance of power healthy equal between all parties. Few people here have ever needed a gun to save their innocent lives, but still most here believe it is better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it.
So it is with a GOOD union. Better to have it and not need it. A GOOD union can even be healthy for BOTH company and workers. One reason being that the workers know what they can reasonably expect from their employer because basically the only relationship they now have is clearly (usually) described in the collective bargaining agreement. And likewise, the employer knows generally what to expect.
There will be people along who will try to shred my position on this. Usually they are the ones who are or have been in a position of power regarding workers and resent the fact that they can't/weren't able to mistreat the workers anyway they felt like treating them. Or they worked at a company that had a bad union (yes, they exist) and were too lazy to work to turn that bad union into a good union. Or they just might be someone who doesn't think the American workers should have any power over their employer. Instead, some people think that an employer having total power over employees is just and good.
Such anti-union people think that after all, if the workers don't like it, don't they have the right to quit and move on and find another job? Course, the worker's family may go hungry for awhile, and the worker may lose his retirement and medical coverage and have to go to work someplace else for half the wages. But for union haters, that usually seems fair rather than have a GOOD union.
Flame away, union haters. I've stated my piece.0 -
I don't know why people always have to lump them into one basket. There's good ones and there's bad ones. I'm in an average one which we have nobody to blame but ourselves because most of us couldn't give a da%mn what the union's doing as long as the next contract has some type of raises in it. If not, only then do people get concerened with it.
I'd love to have the extra money going in my pocket but then again without them, I don't know when we'd ever see another raise again. Each company is it's own individual scenario. If a company can treat their employees well enough to not need one, I think that's great. Rarely the case though. I think most unions are on the worker's side but they have to be smart about it. Not like the UAW. Without them, we'd slip right back to where we were. That can't happen. The economy's different now. Everything costs more. We can't go back to where we were. I'd much rather be in a union than not. People can trash them all they want.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
The American worker would be making the same wages and working under the same conditions as the Mexicans today if it were not for the Unions. We need them to maintain a balance, but many of them are corrupt and end up either putting the company out of business or cause members to loose jobs due to outsourcing.
We need them, but they need to be controlled too.
That 'bout sums it up, thanks heff.
This post brought to you by one of those who brought the weekend!! Woo-Hoo!!0 -
How many people that have answered the topic are union?? Im union and I'm dam proud of it. I bust my hump every day and get paid a fair wage for it.
local 154 pgh pa0 -
quote:Originally posted by kristov
Once upon a time unions were badly needed to ensure a safe work place. Today unions seem concerned only with collective baganing issues for higher wages, more benefits, lowering productivity and providing members with more time off. Since labor costs are the most expensive component of running any business this has lead directly to the elimination of many jobs over the past thirty years.
Actually...you are wrong. The affordable COMPUTER and useful programs would have that title.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sweaver
Why are Ford and Chevy going bankrupt? unions
Why did Ford and Chevy start building their vehicles in Mexico and Canada? unions
Why is every manufacturer in the US outsourcing overseas? unions
....and you don't know either.
1 - because of some BAD management mistakes in the past and continued BAD management mistakes still going on.
2 - to be able to compete with the ULTRA CHEAP labor from overseas building that Toyota & Honda that you are driving.
3 - same reason.
Do you know HOW overseas auto companies got to be as good as they are? The UNITED STATES trained them....starting after WWII.
Go search for the correct answers.0 -
When a union drives businesses within the very industry it was created to serve to venture off-shore en mass and employ Third Worlders, then I believe it's time for that particular union to take a good, long hard look at itself as it has probably morphed from parasite to predator.
Not every union for sure but there are those unions whose lust for money and power - greed, avarice - has strangled the very life out of once-thriving American manufacturing industries.
The garment industry is one prime example. The steel industry another. And unless held in check soon, the American-owned sector of the automotive industry will be next.
You don't have to give up your love for or compromise your respect towards unions in general to acknowledge that there are very serious inherent problems with some of them here in 2007.0 -
Mark my words...within 15 years from now, you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUY a U.S. made product. Why? NO, not because they are not produced here....but because nobody living in the U.S. will be able to buy it.
No jobs - no income - no purchasing power.0 -
I bought my union card in 1990 local 103 operating engineers (heavy equipment operators} in Indianapolis In. I am still a member and still DAMN proud of it!!
I have spent most of my career at the same company and am now a foreman for the company.
I have looked at it from both sides of the fence. If both sides act toward each other in a respectful manner witch is basically is what I have seen with all the company's I have worked for then being union can be mutually beneficial for everybody
If a union takes the point that the only thing that matters is high wages or ridiculous benefits then it hurts everybody.
Even my union has some rules that are lopsided but most of the guys I know realize it and don't push it. Take the rules to an extreme and a lot of those same rules can be a double edged sword that you can cut your own throat with.
But with a little commonsense everyone can be happy
I cannot speak for the UAW or the teamsters. But any real trade union is a GOOD thing it really does keep a system of checks and balances in place! I say this as a member of management
I don't believe that the company owes you anything more than a fair wage and a safe place to work. An example of this is the ridiculous pension plans Ford & G.M. are paying those pension plans should have been handled by the union like all of the trade unions are. The company pays the fringe benefit to the union and it is invested by the pension fund and federally governed and monitored these plans for the most part are not going broke and the companies are not forced into paying for to the grave welfare.
Unions yes I believe they still and always will have a place in the work place0 -
quote:Originally posted by kristov
Once upon a time unions were badly needed to ensure a safe work place. Today unions seem concerned only with collective baganing issues for higher wages, more benefits, lowering productivity and providing members with more time off. Since labor costs are the most expensive component of running any business this has lead directly to the elimination of many jobs over the past thirty years.
Just thought that deserved posting one more time.
I am a union member at my current job. It's a boys club.
Worked on both sides of the fence. Also worked in nonunion facilities and union facilities of the same company, which we'll call All Dumb Mutter#!)$#$S. They treated the employees at the nonunion facilities better. Better benefits, better listening and more concern in the grievance process when there is a disagreement for the non union facilities.
Now on to my current employer. The union leadership only looks after themselves. The union's president is primarily concerned with how your issue affect him. If he is able to gain overtime or premium pay at your expense, sorry you lose. What is fair has little to do with anything. Everyone looks out for themselves, including the union representatives.
I've learned to make all attempts possible not to place myself in position where I need help or mediation from the union. It's like expecting the federal government helping you out in a time of need. It's not likely going to happen.
Having said all that, I know the union is the last and worst defense for looking out for my own interests. I work hard at building relationships with those I work for. Those I respect, I treat them with straight forward honesty and dignity along with a proper work ethic in hopes that this will benefit me in the future.
Those above me that I do not respect, I could care less what they think of me. These people don't respect anyone anyway.
For unions to succeed in manufacturing in America, they do need to change. Only a fool would fail to recognize change is vital. The same old song and dance is not working anymore. Here are some changes that I believe needs to take place.
1. Embrace higher productivity. There are plenty of shops paying $10-$13 bucks for unskilled labor. Higher skilled employees will earn a higher pay. Higher skill also means higher productivity. Unfortunately, higher productivity means less employees. Sadly, this is how manufacturing succeeds in America. When fewer skilled laborers trump the low cost masses in China, America keeps the jobs. Manufacturing unions need to embrace this concept.
2. Safety pays. Another concept unions have failed to master. Why should employers accept unions? "Because union employees are higher trained and safer" should be their marketing campaign. Unfortunately, there are just as many nose picking boooger eating morons in unions as there are in non union shops. So what is the benefit to the employer to have a union shop?
If manufacturing unions would take the leadership and embrace these to goals, higher productivity and safer employees, manufacturing unions would be in a much better position to DEMAND higher wages from the employers. Look at the electrical union. From what I can tell, they have embraced this idea. They are fast at what they do and safe. What do they get paid? $32?
Having said all that, I know the union is the last and worst defense for looking out for my own interests. I work hard at building relationships with those I work for. Those I respect, I treat them with straight forward honesty and dignity along with a proper work ethic in hopes that this will benefit me in the future.
Those above me that I do not respect, I could care less what they think of me. These people don't respect anyone anyway. My work ethic won't permit me to do less for them, but I enjoy the day when these people get what they deserve.0 -
I'm surprised I didn't hear this one:
"Unions only protect the bad employees that should be fired"
Not that I totally agree or disagree with it, but when the conversation arises, someone usually mentions it.0 -
It's all about supply and demand. There is a terrific supply of unskilled labor in the world. There is a price for an illiterate moron in Pakistan. There is a cost of labor for a Mexican in America. And there is a cost of labor for an electrician who can install, troubleshoot, and program a PLC. For America to compete, we need to have the highest skilled labor possible.
For instance, suppose a factory makes, I don't know, say beer bottles. In America there are automatic palletizers maintained by highly trained mechanics and electricians. In South America there are few trainable mechanics, but there is a huge cheap supply of morons that can stack ware on pallets by hand. Skilled labor earns more as long as their productivity justifies it.
What advantage is there to be in a union where a shop next door can do the same job? Which shop has more job security? Which shop is more likely to be in business in 5 years?0 -
There are some nice benefits though with my current employer.
Emergency Call Outs. (ECO's) Get paid 4 hours to do 1/2 hour job. Hey, it's cheaper for the company than having someone there around the clock specialized in a specific area.
ECO with Continuance, you get paid a premium if they call you in early.
Holiday pay for the week between Christmas and New Years.
Awesome health insurance.
Short Change Premium if you come back in less than 12 hours, time and half I think for the day. Maybe better.
Double time after 12 hours.
Triple time on holidays.
It's not bad benefits.0 -
quote:Originally posted by gunrunner68
How many people that have answered the topic are union?? Im union and I'm dam proud of it. I bust my hump every day and get paid a fair wage for it.
local 154 pgh pa
+10 -
Unions had a time and a place where they did far more good than harm. Today, in many industries the unions do keep the peace and many places can go very long periods of time without any major issues. That is not the case in every aspect of industry. If you look at commercial aviation, every airline has to co-exist THREE different unions!
1. The Airline Pilots Association (ALPA)
2. The association of Flight attendants (AFA)
3. The Transport workers Unions (the unions of the maintenance guys)
Now how can management honestly expect to make all three unions happy? Historically whenever an airline is in financial trouble one, at least one of the three unions will threaten to break the back of the airline and drive them out of business instead of accept a wage cut and stay in business.
The famous tactic of course is the threat not to announce when all union members will fail to show for work. I.E. unannounced at 10:00 eastern the Flight attendants will walk off the job leaving the aircraft stranded. Which creates total chaos for the company.
Let's not forget the "Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) strike of 1983.
Over 13,000 of America's Air Traffic Controllers walked off the Job. Reagan gave them 48 hours to return to work or they would be fired. The majority of those 13,000 believed he was bluffing. Of course they were wrong, and he canned thier arses.
I would further like to point out that thier demands at the time were completely rediculous. They DEMANDED: a 4 day 32 hour work week (vice the current 5 day 40hr work week they had). A $10,000 across the board pay raise. Complete and full retirement at 20 years service. The package would have cost $770 million more than thier current agreement (that's in 1983 dollars). Now this is relatively shortly after airline deregulation (five years) so many airlines found themselves struggling to make a profit, and struggling in a major way. Airlines like Braniff, TWA, and Eastern, estimated thier losses at 30 million a day each in the few short days the ATC were on strike, before the government contingency plan (which worked) was up and running. You will notice that Braniff, TWA, and Eastern are all currently out of business, but what does that mean to PATCO? Well nothing because they are federal employees.
Just one example of a powerful union, willing to violate the no strike clause, cripple the nation, and in the end all they accomplished was to get 3/4 of thier members fired from thier job.
Sorry for the rant.0 -
without unions we would be working 6 days a week at about 70hrs and only be getting paid 5 bucks an hour. Plus limited health care and benefits. Were they good and did they help America Yes. Have they outlived their usefullnes, YES. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by stanman
Posted by Dheff:
quote:The American worker would be making the same wages and working under the same conditions as the Mexicans today if it were not for the Unions.
It should also be mentioned that, with few exeptions, wages for most jobs today are based off of a "union scale".
So whether you're a union member or not, you probably have a union to thank for your standard of living.
Biggest fact of life going. Union bashers take note.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
There are some nice benefits though with my current employer.
Emergency Call Outs. (ECO's) Get paid 4 hours to do 1/2 hour job. Hey, it's cheaper for the company than having someone there around the clock specialized in a specific area.
ECO with Continuance, you get paid a premium if they call you in early.
Holiday pay for the week between Christmas and New Years.
Awesome health insurance.
Short Change Premium if you come back in less than 12 hours, time and half I think for the day. Maybe better.
Double time after 12 hours.
Triple time on holidays.
It's not bad benefits.
And you wouldn't have a single one if it wasn't for thr threat of a union-if you don't have one.0 -
Unions destroyed Eastern Airlines.
The mechanic's union included baggage handlers. Baggage handlers were getting outrageously high pay. A friend of mine from college got a BA degree in business.
A year after graduation, I saw him at Hartsfield Airport in a blue collar Eastern suit. He said he was making more money loading bags onto airplanes than he could have gotten with his degree.
So there came a time when Eastern wanted to cut the pay of the baggage handlers. The mechanics union would not give an inch. As I recall, the Pilots union stood by the mechanics union. The strike took place, and Eastern Airlines was no more.
Many of those pilots wound up with egg on their face, as they could not all get jobs that paid the same. Some were out of work, some were flying old Cessnas between Nassau and Miami.
I am sure that most of the mechanics found other good jobs by and by.
As for the baggage handlers, I imagine most went right over to McDonalds.
The unions wer stubborn, stupid, and self destructive. And they also destroyed a great american airline.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nards444
without unions we would be working 6 days a week at about 70hrs and only be getting paid 5 bucks an hour. Plus limited health care and benefits. Were they good and did they help America Yes. Have they outlived their usefullnes, YES.
Have they outlived their usefulness, NO. Are the unions perfect, NO. The American laborer is rapidly regressing in many areas, the Government is obviously working hand in hand with business to reduce wages, benefits, and working conditions. One thing makes this valid, the complete disregard by our Government of the illegal alien situation. The Government, despite the overwhelming disapproval of rank and file Americans, chooses to take no action against this problem, which is illegal in too many ways to list, thus making all the illegals, and anyone who employs or abets them, Federal criminals. Estimates of the illegal population are upwards of 30,000,000, all criminals. WHY? We are in the middle of the "Globalization", "New World Order",or whatever you want to call it. It will take some more time, but they are commited to leveling the playing field of world wide labor. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that means less for the worker, more for the business interests. If the unions in America would do the right thing, they would fight this tooth and nail, rouse their members to the cause, and make some serious effort to stop this. That they don't indicates their leadership is in the control of the Globalists. For several years now the white collar workers have been seeing their jobs "outsourced". When son #2 was choosing a major he had considered becoming a software engineer and the counselor asked him if he was planning to move to India, as that's where all those jobs will end up. The American worker has taken serious hits in the last 25 years and union busting is one of the big ones.0 -
My 2 cents worth.
As a member of Operating Engineers Local 324 I think we earn a fair wage for a fair days work. We give a company with several millon dollars worth of equipment the skilled operators to work with and maintain their costly machines.0 -
Folks, I believe that many posters - myself included - are expressing doubts about the benefit of unions in this day and age specifically in manufacturing and hard/soft goods production environments, and not necessarily service unions or those unions serving craftspeople, electricians, steamfitters, plumbers, etc. There's a definite distinction between them, at least in my mind. 0 -
Johnny and I are members of the same union and I also feel that we EARN a fair wage for a fair days work and for that fair days pay the contractor gets a skilled and well trained craftsman
I am a member of local 103 Operating Engineers0 -
Not trying to be argumentative here, but didn't Henry Ford pioneer the 40-hour work week, the coffee break, and other benefits, including hiring minorities, without having a union force them on him? 0
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