Should teachers be allowed to pack a gun?
Interesting story. I'm pulling for the teacher!!
Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.
What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.
She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.
But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."
Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.
Gun-rights groups and school boards around the country are paying close attention to the Oregon case.
"There's a specific state statute that prohibits local governments, including school districts, from passing laws or policies prohibiting people from owning or possessing firearms," says James Leuenberger, the Portland, Ore., lawyer representing the teacher.
"Jane Doe," who agreed to be interviewed by phone on condition of anonymity, says she does not want to be viewed as an "Annie Oakley." Trying to extricate herself from an abusive relationship led her to buy her first gun just a few years ago, she says. Prior to that she had not been an activist in defense of the US Constitution's Second Amendment provision regarding "the right to keep and bear arms."
But as a veteran teacher, she has come to believe strongly that having responsible armed adults on campus could have prevented tragedies such as those at Columbine High School in Colorado, Thurston High School in Oregon, and Virginia Tech University last April.
"I have no doubt at all that any time a criminal has gone into a school intending to commit violence they did so knowing nobody was going to be able to stop them," she says. "We've seen what happens when teachers do nothing or can do nothing, and that's not acceptable to me."
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools. In general, administrators, teachers' organizations, and law-enforcement agencies favor such laws. In the confusion of a school shooting, police officials have said, adding guns to the situation just makes the predicament more dangerous.
The state panel investigating the April 16 shootings by a mentally disturbed student who killed 33 people at Virginia Tech University (the nation's deadliest school shooting) agrees.
"If numerous people had been rushing around with handguns . the possibility of accidental or mistaken shootings would have increased significantly," the panel wrote.
But that has not stopped a push by the NRA and other gun advocates to allow guns on school property as a safety measure.
In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.
Louisiana lawmakers refused to pass a bill that would have outlawed guns in college dormitories, and legislators in Maine similarly killed a bill that would have given colleges the authority to prohibit guns on campuses.
Anthony Stavros, a member of the Nevada State Board of Regents governing higher education and a Las Vegas police captain, has proposed deputizing university employees as reserve officers, trained and qualified to carry weapons. The Iowa Board of Regents is close to allowing campus police to be armed.
But efforts to allow guns in grade schools and high schools tend not to get very far in state legislatures. The South Carolina measure failed. Administrators and the state teachers' union in Michigan have voiced strong opposition to the proposal there.
So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus. Utah's law applies to public colleges and universities. The University of Utah opposed the 2004 legislation that allows weapons on campus (including those owned by students with concealed carry permits), but lost in the state supreme court.
For high school teacher "Jane Doe," who takes her case to court this week, the issue is very personal.
"I have two children in school," she says, "and I would like to think that if something like that ever happened, there would be somebody there to do the right thing to protect my kids."
Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.
What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.
She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.
But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."
Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.
Gun-rights groups and school boards around the country are paying close attention to the Oregon case.
"There's a specific state statute that prohibits local governments, including school districts, from passing laws or policies prohibiting people from owning or possessing firearms," says James Leuenberger, the Portland, Ore., lawyer representing the teacher.
"Jane Doe," who agreed to be interviewed by phone on condition of anonymity, says she does not want to be viewed as an "Annie Oakley." Trying to extricate herself from an abusive relationship led her to buy her first gun just a few years ago, she says. Prior to that she had not been an activist in defense of the US Constitution's Second Amendment provision regarding "the right to keep and bear arms."
But as a veteran teacher, she has come to believe strongly that having responsible armed adults on campus could have prevented tragedies such as those at Columbine High School in Colorado, Thurston High School in Oregon, and Virginia Tech University last April.
"I have no doubt at all that any time a criminal has gone into a school intending to commit violence they did so knowing nobody was going to be able to stop them," she says. "We've seen what happens when teachers do nothing or can do nothing, and that's not acceptable to me."
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools. In general, administrators, teachers' organizations, and law-enforcement agencies favor such laws. In the confusion of a school shooting, police officials have said, adding guns to the situation just makes the predicament more dangerous.
The state panel investigating the April 16 shootings by a mentally disturbed student who killed 33 people at Virginia Tech University (the nation's deadliest school shooting) agrees.
"If numerous people had been rushing around with handguns . the possibility of accidental or mistaken shootings would have increased significantly," the panel wrote.
But that has not stopped a push by the NRA and other gun advocates to allow guns on school property as a safety measure.
In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.
Louisiana lawmakers refused to pass a bill that would have outlawed guns in college dormitories, and legislators in Maine similarly killed a bill that would have given colleges the authority to prohibit guns on campuses.
Anthony Stavros, a member of the Nevada State Board of Regents governing higher education and a Las Vegas police captain, has proposed deputizing university employees as reserve officers, trained and qualified to carry weapons. The Iowa Board of Regents is close to allowing campus police to be armed.
But efforts to allow guns in grade schools and high schools tend not to get very far in state legislatures. The South Carolina measure failed. Administrators and the state teachers' union in Michigan have voiced strong opposition to the proposal there.
So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus. Utah's law applies to public colleges and universities. The University of Utah opposed the 2004 legislation that allows weapons on campus (including those owned by students with concealed carry permits), but lost in the state supreme court.
For high school teacher "Jane Doe," who takes her case to court this week, the issue is very personal.
"I have two children in school," she says, "and I would like to think that if something like that ever happened, there would be somebody there to do the right thing to protect my kids."
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quote:Originally posted by iluvguns
Remember the video from a couple of years ago, and it even made the Today show plus other news outlets, of the Undercover Cop giving a demonstration in a classroom. BOOM! Shoots himself in the leg in front of the class? That LEO was really thinking with his gun at the time! IMHO...if a person has qualified to carry concealed, then they should be allowed to carry ANYWHERE they want.
And a LEO isn't always the coolest cat in front of a screaming bunch of kids.
I think you made your own point. Even a trained officer can accidentally discharge a weapon- how much more of this would happen if teachers carry? We as humans tend to fumble when confronted with an unfamiliar situation. It goes both directions as you so poignantly noted.0 -
quote:I think you made your own point.
I disagree. I think cops should be banned from school. Even a trained officer can accidentally discharge a weapon. THOSE are your words. Now, how do you want it? Cops in school, or armed TRAINED civilians exercising their constitutional right to keep and bear arms?0 -
Still waiting for an explanation as to why a civilian is qualified to shoot unarmed people in public.....but a teacher is unqualified to shoot an armed student on a rampage... 0 -
So, Jim...you really believe that my name is Doug Wilson, and that I live in Sheridan, and that I have a CHL, and that I carry on school transportation at the request of the school administration ??
I never have been sure of how to spell "naive"... do you know ??
Welcome to the internet.
Doug0 -
yep, teachers have too much to think about, they shouldent have guns
i'm going through a divorce, im under too much stress, i shouldent have a gun
i live next to a school, i should get rid of all my guns, because there are children nearby...
we all post on a gun related website, you know, that makes us prone to violence, none of us should have guns.
sarcasm aside, who are we to judge whether or not this lady is "capable" of carrying a gun safely
do you want anybody to make that decision about your gun?
you either support the right to carry or you do not, there is no middle ground here.0 -
Yes they have my full support 0 -
well, i guess we just look at the issue differently.
i honestly do not believe you are naive enough to believe that "they cant" take away your right to carry.0 -
[;)] 0 -
quote:You think "cops should be banned from school"? You are amazing!
Maybe it didn't come across at all, but that was supposed to be sarcasm. My point was we have cops in school that are worse than a lot of regular old gun owners. I was using the UC cop that shot himself in the leg in front of a class full of kids as an example. We trust HIM in a school with guns and he can't even demonstrate proper usage without shooting himself. WHy would a teacher be any worse? I think if a teacher wants to carry to protect herself or himself in today's climate, GO FOR IT!0 -
most all high schools have a resorce officer that carries a service pistol. if hes good at his job he should be able to nuetralize any/ and/ or all threats within the school.
but most are not qualified(out of shape and are poor shots) because most school boards dont think something will go down in their school.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by bingeebob
yep, teachers have too much to think about, they shouldent have guns
i'm going through a divorce, im under too much stress, i shouldent have a gun
i live next to a school, i should get rid of all my guns, because there are children nearby...
we all post on a gun related website, you know, that makes us prone to violence, none of us should have guns.
sarcasm aside, who are we to judge whether or not this lady is "capable" of carrying a gun safely
do you want anybody to make that decision about your gun?
you either support the right to carry or you do not, there is no middle ground here.
1.) Yes
2.) Yes
3.) Yes
4.) No, just people like you. [;)]
5.) God or governing powers.
6.) They can't. I'm a retired LEO, retired military and my right to carry can't ever be taken away without just cause. * And that doesn't mean "just cuz I said so". [:D]
7.) "Middle Ground" is my middle name, so come up with a better statement. There are more grey areas on this subject than you will ever understand, let alone accept. [;)]
Jim
Well, now I know where you're coming from.....elitism, plain and simple.
It's the old "I'm qualified to carry a gun and you're not" line....
Maybe Bondai (for once) had it right......0 -
Already have......
I'm begining to wonder if you have split personalities0 -
quote:I get it, you're Bondai reincarnated! So, let me understand your position. A mistake is made by one guy and you have determined that all law enforcement officers make the same mistakes as that clown? My first duty holster is older than that guy. To add insult to injury, you honestly believe that Mrs. Joe Blow with a concealed weapons permit will be a better deterrent, or solution to having a professional there to protect students? I believe that when teachers are lawfully armed on campuses, more casualties will occur than if no armed security were present.
Heck no! I'm not Bondai anything! [:D] I "DO" respect most cops. I don't necessarily believe "Mrs. Joe Blow with a CCW will be a better deterrent to having a professional there." But she "might" be a darn sight better than some, and if she has trained for her CCW probably equal to the majority of "school security officers" I have seen. (Back to the UC cop that shot himself!) And she definately would be another level of deterrent. All cops aren't Joe Friday, or even Starsky and Hutch (THANK GOD!). Some are good, some are bad. Just like teachers. To me, it all goes back to a right guaranteed by the consitution to keep and bear arms. If you want to infringe upon that, infringe upon it for yourself. That is your perogative. Just don't ask me to infringe upon it. After all, it is my constitutionally granted right. And if the right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed in the constitution, that right is applicable anywhere. Kinda like the gay policy in the military - "Don't ask; Don't tell." [:D]0 -
I hate to hit this dead horse again, but have you guys seen teachers these days? They have gone through a teacher certification and yet have no clue about teaching (in most cases). Kids don't even know Canada is on the N. American Continent. Now you think they can handle a weapon? If you flush a system with training teachers, it will be another government enabled program with completely lackluster performance. Just look at the Drivers License programs in most states. Can you spell your name? Si.
Sure, there will be ONE decent shooter/ quick thinker in about 1000 teachers, but come on! Most will either be too slow to act or think, too fat or otherwise physically unable, or mentally/ emotionally devoid of the psychological breadth it takes to handle a weapon in a tragic situation.
The first rule of being a CHL carrier is to know how to NOT use your weapon- otherwise you are carrying out of EGO, which is really f'ed up. If you have a CHL, you should know MUCH more than how to shoot a weapon. It's a serious responsibility to know the tactics of psychology, defusing a situation so you DON'T have to shoot, and overall tuned in to the millions of nuances and solutions to a situation.
With kids around, you do NOT want some "Shoot First" idiot with a gun thinking he's Jack Bauer.
The solution is to start at the cause. Teach kids ethics, chivalry, respect, and take away the mind killing TV/Video Crap.0 -
quote:but have you guys seen teachers these days?
Now I get it! You're to teachers the same as Bondai was to cops! [:D] I don't know where you live, but where I live in W. KY, our teachers and school system are great. I have been on the school board, I served 3 years on the SBDM council (Unique to KY, look up what it is if you want), I have worked with teachers in my kids school regularly. Using your argument, if some are bad, then ALL must be bad. That just isn't true. The article wasn't about arming all teachers. It was about one teacher and her constitutionally guaranteed right to arm herself. It is strange to me that the cops and retired cops on this board are more than willing to infringe on that right for some people.0 -
He lives in Texas. Maybe the Teachers there are fat and stupid as he described but I doubt it. I would sure like to hear from them. And what makes him the expert on swat situations? 0 -
I thought he was trying to re certify the teachings in concealed carry [:o)][:o)] 0 -
Probably because they know that arming teachers isn't a good idea.
So Western KY may have Ok schools. What about the other 90% of the country?
When you involve yourself with a topic such as this, and enacting legislation, you cannot pick and choose who gets and who doesn't get application of the law. The law is an indiscriminate act which applies to Any and ALL.
I don't care if you question my authority on the topic, but I'm sure you will find most experts agree that carrying a weapon does not make you master of the situation, quite the opposite. Most cops would probably be aghast at hearing any movement to arm teachers. In my experience gun carriers are not always 'tactical experts'. (except in their own minds) Like I said, i'm all for guns, but when a kid is involved, SAFETY is #1. In a classroom, the primary tactic is to avoid using a firearm at all costs. Most Teachers are not qualified for this.
Have you brought this topic up in your P/T meeting in Kentucky?0 -
quote:Originally posted by vhotho
Probably because they know that arming teachers isn't a good idea.
So Western KY may have Ok schools. What about the other 90% of the country?
When you involve yourself with a topic such as this, and enacting legislation, you cannot pick and choose who gets and who doesn't get application of the law. The law is an indiscriminate act which applies to Any and ALL.
I don't care if you question my authority on the topic, but I'm sure you will find most experts agree that carrying a weapon does not make you master of the situation, quite the opposite. Most cops would probably be aghast at hearing any movement to arm teachers. In my experience gun carriers are not always 'tactical experts'. (except in their own minds) Like I said, i'm all for guns, but when a kid is involved, SAFETY is #1. In a classroom, the primary tactic is to avoid using a firearm at all costs. Most Teachers are not qualified for this.
Have you brought this topic up in your P/T meeting in Kentucky?
I agree firearms have no place in school but by Law Enforcement. However I would like to see your statistics and data on classroom use of firearms0 -
Thanks Jim.
It's sad to see the respect for guns, that i was taught as a young man, are lost in todays society.
Guns are serious. Carrying changes the dynamic of a situation and it changes your mental attitude on handling a situation. People get emotional, people have rage, hate, external issues, personal problems, stress, etc. and all these things affect how people think and act. When a high pressure situation mounts, many times logic goes out the window. Do you want someone carrying around your kid just b/c they have a CHL? You think that will protect your kid? No, the GUN will not protect the kid. (just like the 'guns don't kill people, right?) Now all these folks are reversing the motto, stating that a GUN will protect the kids, and they won't.
Most individuals (and many that carry) have never been in a tragic situation. They don't train you for that when you get a CHL.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I thought he was trying to re certify the teachings in concealed carry [:o)][:o)]
No, but he hit some highlights that many CCW holders never learned or simply do not follow. It scares me to think of how many states issue permits on a request basis, with no proper training of any sort. If you have a pulse, you can obtain a concealed weapons permit. Kind of like putting a bunch of rusty razors in the hand of an infant and suggest that they "be careful, but hold them tightly." Those states deserve the problems associated with untrained, or improperly trained individuals. Just because someone can buy and possess a firearm, doesn't mean that they are instantly competent with one (and in some cases, never will be). [;)]
Jim
I took the course in SC and had carried in another state since I was 21. Course was a joke. Police instructor did not go over ANY details. SC is a retreat state. Should one ever use a handgun in a defensive way there better be no other reason why the party had to be shot. Right to retreat will stand if the CWP party confronts. But the CWP party is suppose to protect anyone NOT having a CWP if their life is threatened. I ask the instructor after the 30 min. class and qualifying at the range.. If he was going to discuss when and the repercussions of pulling the gun? Nope.. He said the CWP will just lose their permits if they ever do pull their guns the wrong way.0 -
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I agree firearms have no place in school but by Law Enforcement. However I would like to see your statistics and data on classroom use of firearms
It's not a statistical statement, and none were given. Just common sense, which is obviously lacking for some individuals. The first line of action should be to try to avoid firearm discharge. In a classroom thats a big DUH!- hello?! Think!. Since most civilian shooters have a 25% hit probability with a pistol(that IS a statistic). And you dont want that in a classroom full of kiddos.0 -
I can't believe some folks here.
You think you should be able to carry a gun anywhere you want?
JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?........ AMERICANS?
You should be able to! And so should the teachers, and pilots and airplane passengers.
WHY?
Because our Constitution says so!
End of discussion!0 -
I worked the local gun range during qualification for CWP. IT was a scary situation to have full grown adults shooting at targets from 3, 5, 7, 10 ,15 yd trying to get them to KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER.. while waving their guns around. One old woman took a S&W .38 snubnose and emptied it and kept pulling the trigger numberous times.. click click click click... I had to tell her more than once.. the gun only holds 5 rounds. I finally loaded it for her and kept a close watch. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I worked the local gun range during qualification for CWP. IT was a scary situation to have full grown adults shooting at targets from 3, 5, 7, 10 ,15 yd trying to get them to KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER.. while waving their guns around. One old woman took a S&W .38 snubnose and emptied it and kept pulling the trigger numberous times.. click click click click... I had to tell her more than once.. the gun only holds 5 rounds. I finally loaded it for her and kept a close watch.
That's why I try to stay away from a gun range. I fear I would be that idiot. I prefer to be alone in the pasture.0 -
quote:I can't believe some folks here.
You think you should be able to carry a gun anywhere you want?
JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?........ AMERICANS?
You should be able to! And so should the teachers, and pilots and airplane passengers.
WHY?
Because our Constitution says so!
End of discussion!
AMEN AMEN and AMEN!
I have a perfect solution though. Since gun owners are obviously so reckless with theie CCW guns, I propose that we BAN all handguns and make it ILLEGAL for a plain old irresponsible civilian to even own a pistol or revolver. Never know when someone might lose control. We all know that ONLY cops are qualified to carry a gun and ONLY cops have the training and knowledge to protect us in our time of need. Yeah that's it. That's just what we should do. [xx(]0 -
quote:Originally posted by GUNFUNCO
I can't believe some folks here.
You think you should be able to carry a gun anywhere you want?
JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?........ AMERICANS?
You should be able to! And so should the teachers, and pilots and airplane passengers.
WHY?
Because our Constitution says so!
End of discussion!
True, but rights carry responsibility which is lacking in todays society. I dont agree with taking away rights, but until people respect guns, learn whats right, and act with their mind and not emotion, we have to have some limits.
Wake up and look around at the average American. Do you want them all to carry guns? 40 years ago, when i was a kid, there wasn't a Concealed Gun issue on the books. People taught their kid respect and seriousness of guns. Now its just a bunch of dilrods drooling over 'new toys' waving their rights around without understanding the serious business of handling a weapon and brandishing irresponsibly.
Not to mention no one was on Prozac, addicted to video games and teachers weren't screwing 14 year-olds (except Jerry Lee Lewis)0 -
quote:Originally posted by iluvguns
quote:I can't believe some folks here.
You think you should be able to carry a gun anywhere you want?
JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?........ AMERICANS?
You should be able to! And so should the teachers, and pilots and airplane passengers.
WHY?
Because our Constitution says so!
End of discussion!
AMEN AMEN and AMEN!
I have a perfect solution though. Since gun owners are obviously so reckless with theie CCW guns, I propose that we BAN all handguns and make it ILLEGAL for a plain old irresponsible civilian to even own a pistol or revolver. Never know when someone might lose control. We all know that ONLY cops are qualified to carry a gun and ONLY cops have the training and knowledge to protect us in our time of need. Yeah that's it. That's just what we should do. [xx(]
So you drop a 'deep end' statement instead of an educated rebuttal?
I never indicated any idea of 'taking away' any pistol, firearm or weapon. I'm merely staying on-topic, which is teachers carrying weapons in school.0 -
quote:So you drop a 'deep end' statement instead of an educated rebuttal?
I never indicated any idea of 'taking away' any pistol, firearm or weapon. I'm merely staying on-topic, which is teachers carrying weapons in school.
It is not a deep end statement. Following your comments, plus others, that is what you want. You are just trying to couch it in nice terms, kinda like the libs and dems do today. I believe in the Constitution of the US. That teacher is a citizen. She has an unfettered RIGHT to carry if she wants. You want to start placing limits on who can carry and where. That is the way all gun-grabbers start. "Exclude this class of people, then we can move on to the next class of folks we don't think are qualified." Before you know it, all gun owners are in a "class" that won't be allowed to carry anywhere, and guns will be outlawed. You don't know this woman. She might be an ex-Ranger in the Army. Best pistol shot in the world, most careful gun owner in the state of Oregon, but you and others want to go against her because "all teachers are libs and cops are there to protect you." Well....using that argument, some cops are stupid, so ALL cops must be stupid, therefore no cops can carry a firearm.
Anyway...that's my last word on it. IMHO...Anyone who wants should be allowed to carry where and when they want. After all, it's in the constitution. Well...maybe THAT was my last word! [:D]0 -
Nope, you got me all wrong. We are talking about common sense- which, if you have been watching the news in the last 20 years- is lacking in our culture.
the mind is much more powerful than the gun. good and bad.
if you open the floodgates to let teachers carry, it changes the dynamic and provisions of the classroom. Schools are already terrible nationwide. They should be a sanctuary of learning, educated debate and THINKING about problems and resolution conflict.
armed teachers will either be:
a) Hard-ass Jarhead who thinks with his gun 1st (military prison state)
b) Dumb-ass incompetent who will shoot a kid or his/her foot (lawsuit city)
c) Borderline therapy case who goes on a rampage after Jr spills his milk
like i said before: Teach your kids the right thing. Respect guns and take their use very seriously. Turn off the TV and get involved with your kid, and think about if you want some idiot with a kick-ass pistol teaching him/ her ebonics.0
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