Should teachers be allowed to pack a gun?
Interesting story. I'm pulling for the teacher!!
Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.
What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.
She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.
But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."
Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.
Gun-rights groups and school boards around the country are paying close attention to the Oregon case.
"There's a specific state statute that prohibits local governments, including school districts, from passing laws or policies prohibiting people from owning or possessing firearms," says James Leuenberger, the Portland, Ore., lawyer representing the teacher.
"Jane Doe," who agreed to be interviewed by phone on condition of anonymity, says she does not want to be viewed as an "Annie Oakley." Trying to extricate herself from an abusive relationship led her to buy her first gun just a few years ago, she says. Prior to that she had not been an activist in defense of the US Constitution's Second Amendment provision regarding "the right to keep and bear arms."
But as a veteran teacher, she has come to believe strongly that having responsible armed adults on campus could have prevented tragedies such as those at Columbine High School in Colorado, Thurston High School in Oregon, and Virginia Tech University last April.
"I have no doubt at all that any time a criminal has gone into a school intending to commit violence they did so knowing nobody was going to be able to stop them," she says. "We've seen what happens when teachers do nothing or can do nothing, and that's not acceptable to me."
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools. In general, administrators, teachers' organizations, and law-enforcement agencies favor such laws. In the confusion of a school shooting, police officials have said, adding guns to the situation just makes the predicament more dangerous.
The state panel investigating the April 16 shootings by a mentally disturbed student who killed 33 people at Virginia Tech University (the nation's deadliest school shooting) agrees.
"If numerous people had been rushing around with handguns . the possibility of accidental or mistaken shootings would have increased significantly," the panel wrote.
But that has not stopped a push by the NRA and other gun advocates to allow guns on school property as a safety measure.
In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.
Louisiana lawmakers refused to pass a bill that would have outlawed guns in college dormitories, and legislators in Maine similarly killed a bill that would have given colleges the authority to prohibit guns on campuses.
Anthony Stavros, a member of the Nevada State Board of Regents governing higher education and a Las Vegas police captain, has proposed deputizing university employees as reserve officers, trained and qualified to carry weapons. The Iowa Board of Regents is close to allowing campus police to be armed.
But efforts to allow guns in grade schools and high schools tend not to get very far in state legislatures. The South Carolina measure failed. Administrators and the state teachers' union in Michigan have voiced strong opposition to the proposal there.
So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus. Utah's law applies to public colleges and universities. The University of Utah opposed the 2004 legislation that allows weapons on campus (including those owned by students with concealed carry permits), but lost in the state supreme court.
For high school teacher "Jane Doe," who takes her case to court this week, the issue is very personal.
"I have two children in school," she says, "and I would like to think that if something like that ever happened, there would be somebody there to do the right thing to protect my kids."
Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.
What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.
She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.
But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."
Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.
Gun-rights groups and school boards around the country are paying close attention to the Oregon case.
"There's a specific state statute that prohibits local governments, including school districts, from passing laws or policies prohibiting people from owning or possessing firearms," says James Leuenberger, the Portland, Ore., lawyer representing the teacher.
"Jane Doe," who agreed to be interviewed by phone on condition of anonymity, says she does not want to be viewed as an "Annie Oakley." Trying to extricate herself from an abusive relationship led her to buy her first gun just a few years ago, she says. Prior to that she had not been an activist in defense of the US Constitution's Second Amendment provision regarding "the right to keep and bear arms."
But as a veteran teacher, she has come to believe strongly that having responsible armed adults on campus could have prevented tragedies such as those at Columbine High School in Colorado, Thurston High School in Oregon, and Virginia Tech University last April.
"I have no doubt at all that any time a criminal has gone into a school intending to commit violence they did so knowing nobody was going to be able to stop them," she says. "We've seen what happens when teachers do nothing or can do nothing, and that's not acceptable to me."
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools. In general, administrators, teachers' organizations, and law-enforcement agencies favor such laws. In the confusion of a school shooting, police officials have said, adding guns to the situation just makes the predicament more dangerous.
The state panel investigating the April 16 shootings by a mentally disturbed student who killed 33 people at Virginia Tech University (the nation's deadliest school shooting) agrees.
"If numerous people had been rushing around with handguns . the possibility of accidental or mistaken shootings would have increased significantly," the panel wrote.
But that has not stopped a push by the NRA and other gun advocates to allow guns on school property as a safety measure.
In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.
Louisiana lawmakers refused to pass a bill that would have outlawed guns in college dormitories, and legislators in Maine similarly killed a bill that would have given colleges the authority to prohibit guns on campuses.
Anthony Stavros, a member of the Nevada State Board of Regents governing higher education and a Las Vegas police captain, has proposed deputizing university employees as reserve officers, trained and qualified to carry weapons. The Iowa Board of Regents is close to allowing campus police to be armed.
But efforts to allow guns in grade schools and high schools tend not to get very far in state legislatures. The South Carolina measure failed. Administrators and the state teachers' union in Michigan have voiced strong opposition to the proposal there.
So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus. Utah's law applies to public colleges and universities. The University of Utah opposed the 2004 legislation that allows weapons on campus (including those owned by students with concealed carry permits), but lost in the state supreme court.
For high school teacher "Jane Doe," who takes her case to court this week, the issue is very personal.
"I have two children in school," she says, "and I would like to think that if something like that ever happened, there would be somebody there to do the right thing to protect my kids."
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quote:Originally posted by vhotho
Do you want someone carrying around your kid just b/c they have a CHL?
Are CHL permit holders not allowed to go outside?
After all, there are children out there.0 -
quote:Originally posted by vhotho
armed teachers will either be:
a) Hard-ass Jarhead who thinks with his gun 1st (military prison state)
b) Dumb-ass incompetent who will shoot a kid or his/her foot (lawsuit city)
c) Borderline therapy case who goes on a rampage after Jr spills his milk
Wow, did you C/P that from the Brady Campaign's website?
I notice you didn't even bother to list the vast majority:
d) Decent Americans who only desire a means to protect themselves and the children placed in their care.0 -
Aside from the constitutional issues, think about this.
Many of you may not be aware of this but I found it to be true after working 20 years in law enforcement.
There are many guns, in peoples pockets, on their hips, in their groin area, on their ankles, up their shirt sleeve, taped to numerous parts of their bodies and countless other places on or near them, carried both legally or illegally on a daily basis.
Most of them you never see or never will see unless you are one of those who will unfortunately become a victim of someone that "truly" should NOT have one or are assisted by one of the others. Most of the prior people should either be in prison or dead.
I am not talking about the guy who carries "unlawfully" because his locality does not allow him to.
I know of instances where a "licensed" person carried one into an area where he or she shouldn't have, by "legal" standards, but I was glad that they did. Or a non-licensed person carrying illegally because he or she did not have the ability to carry without "proper authorization" that used their gun to defend themselves or another.
Wouldn't it be better for the public in general, if more people had the means to defend themselves.
Usually, good will eventually triumph over evil but it often takes the death of several innocents before that happens. Evil people, the kind that shoot up our schools, hijack our airplanes, rob our elderly, rape helpless women and children, are eventually caught and are eventually punished or killed, but not before many others suffer.
In my mind, the average person has more good in them than evil so shouldn't more of the good folks be carrying the guns. It would make it a lot more dangerous for the bad ones. And if the bad ones are killed by one of the good ones, it tends to have a "lasting effect" since you generally only get to die one time and those bad ones that got killed wouldn't have any more opportunities to commit "bad acts".0 -
This isn't about good/evil. It's about competency around kids. Competency with a really serious item. Competency on the level that works in a bad, stressful, split-second decision situation.
Intentions are great, but they rarely translate to reality.
Sure, I want my kid to be protected at school. But realistically speaking, will Mrs. Jones be able to handle a gun should the need arise amidst a Math Class? Will she remember all the things she learned in her 6 hour gun course 3 years back? Will she be in the middle of thinking about something else and let her emotions take control of her trembling hand? She will most likely UNDER-perform.. Just like her students Math scores. But with Math, no bullets are flying around.0 -
quote:armed teachers will either be:
a) Hard-ass Jarhead who thinks with his gun 1st (military prison state)
b) Dumb-ass incompetent who will shoot a kid or his/her foot (lawsuit city)
c) Borderline therapy case who goes on a rampage after Jr spills his milk
OK...I promise...THIS will be my last word on this...[:D]
The statement above assumes a lot of stuff on your part. Most of all that ALL teacher are incompetent. That is just not true! Using that exact came logic from your points above...are there not cops out there who...
a) are hard ass Jarheads who think with their gun first?
b)Dumbass incompetent who will shoot himself in the leg in a classroom? (got a video of that one![:D])
c) borderline therapy cases who will...whatever. (got that one on tape too if you remember the cop in Memphis.[:D])
I know the above sounds like I hate cops. But I don't!! (I'm not Bondai![xx(]). But what makes you think that just because someone is a cop and wears a uniform that they are able to make decisions under pressure and handle all situations perfectly? They can't! Good example is baliff's in the courtroom. At least in my county the baliff's are folks just hired, waiting to go to the police academy, just killing time until they can get a spot. No formal training, but they carry pistols. We, the "regular" folks, have to go through metal detectors and cannot even bring a pocket knife into the court house. Heck, when I go there to pay my taxes or renew my tags, I want to carry! You walk the halls of that place when court is in session and it is full of pot-heads and drug dealers. But I can't protect myself. But that is OK, I shouldn't worry. Some Joe Blow just off the street is there and since he has on a blue uniform, he will react perfectly and keep me from harm. Bull snot!
Again...the point, and ONLY point is that the constitution says I have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't mention anything about not "bearing" if I am a teacher or going to the court house. If you want to infringe even thismuch you might as well go all the way and take guns from everyone.0 -
Vhot-
That was part of my point. There are guns there already. Some being possessed by good guys, some by bad guys. I just want to put more in the hands of the good guys.0 -
quote:Originally posted by vhotho
But realistically speaking, will Mrs. Jones be able to handle a gun should the need arise amidst a Math Class? Will she remember all the things she learned in her 6 hour gun course 3 years back? Will she be in the middle of thinking about something else and let her emotions take control of her trembling hand? She will most likely UNDER-perform.
I'll take the "Mrs. Jones, trembling, gun-in-hand" option over the Columbine/Va Tech method of classroom safety any day of the week...0 -
you aren't reading my posts.
I NEVER endorsed cops in the classroom either. In fact, I posted regarding the cop couldn't handle the kid situation, just as the teacher isn't the best at handling a weapon.
If we raise our kids appropriately, teach values, respect, and get them away from thinking they are living in a video game- then we can go back to they way it was 30 years ago: no kids in school w/ guns, no teachers w/ guns, and no cops in school. Just teaching.
The thing that has changed is people think their rights have no responsibility, thus we have to set boundaries until society wakes up.
When I was a kid we said pledge of allegiance, we saluted the flag, we learned about the law, and my father, and grandfather taught me respect, and respect/responsibility of guns.
they have no place in a classroom setting.0 -
I'm all for the teacher here...hope she has success!!! 0
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