Should teachers be allowed to pack a gun?
Interesting story. I'm pulling for the teacher!!
Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.
What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.
She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.
But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."
Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.
Gun-rights groups and school boards around the country are paying close attention to the Oregon case.
"There's a specific state statute that prohibits local governments, including school districts, from passing laws or policies prohibiting people from owning or possessing firearms," says James Leuenberger, the Portland, Ore., lawyer representing the teacher.
"Jane Doe," who agreed to be interviewed by phone on condition of anonymity, says she does not want to be viewed as an "Annie Oakley." Trying to extricate herself from an abusive relationship led her to buy her first gun just a few years ago, she says. Prior to that she had not been an activist in defense of the US Constitution's Second Amendment provision regarding "the right to keep and bear arms."
But as a veteran teacher, she has come to believe strongly that having responsible armed adults on campus could have prevented tragedies such as those at Columbine High School in Colorado, Thurston High School in Oregon, and Virginia Tech University last April.
"I have no doubt at all that any time a criminal has gone into a school intending to commit violence they did so knowing nobody was going to be able to stop them," she says. "We've seen what happens when teachers do nothing or can do nothing, and that's not acceptable to me."
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools. In general, administrators, teachers' organizations, and law-enforcement agencies favor such laws. In the confusion of a school shooting, police officials have said, adding guns to the situation just makes the predicament more dangerous.
The state panel investigating the April 16 shootings by a mentally disturbed student who killed 33 people at Virginia Tech University (the nation's deadliest school shooting) agrees.
"If numerous people had been rushing around with handguns . the possibility of accidental or mistaken shootings would have increased significantly," the panel wrote.
But that has not stopped a push by the NRA and other gun advocates to allow guns on school property as a safety measure.
In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.
Louisiana lawmakers refused to pass a bill that would have outlawed guns in college dormitories, and legislators in Maine similarly killed a bill that would have given colleges the authority to prohibit guns on campuses.
Anthony Stavros, a member of the Nevada State Board of Regents governing higher education and a Las Vegas police captain, has proposed deputizing university employees as reserve officers, trained and qualified to carry weapons. The Iowa Board of Regents is close to allowing campus police to be armed.
But efforts to allow guns in grade schools and high schools tend not to get very far in state legislatures. The South Carolina measure failed. Administrators and the state teachers' union in Michigan have voiced strong opposition to the proposal there.
So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus. Utah's law applies to public colleges and universities. The University of Utah opposed the 2004 legislation that allows weapons on campus (including those owned by students with concealed carry permits), but lost in the state supreme court.
For high school teacher "Jane Doe," who takes her case to court this week, the issue is very personal.
"I have two children in school," she says, "and I would like to think that if something like that ever happened, there would be somebody there to do the right thing to protect my kids."
Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.
What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.
She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.
But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."
Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.
Gun-rights groups and school boards around the country are paying close attention to the Oregon case.
"There's a specific state statute that prohibits local governments, including school districts, from passing laws or policies prohibiting people from owning or possessing firearms," says James Leuenberger, the Portland, Ore., lawyer representing the teacher.
"Jane Doe," who agreed to be interviewed by phone on condition of anonymity, says she does not want to be viewed as an "Annie Oakley." Trying to extricate herself from an abusive relationship led her to buy her first gun just a few years ago, she says. Prior to that she had not been an activist in defense of the US Constitution's Second Amendment provision regarding "the right to keep and bear arms."
But as a veteran teacher, she has come to believe strongly that having responsible armed adults on campus could have prevented tragedies such as those at Columbine High School in Colorado, Thurston High School in Oregon, and Virginia Tech University last April.
"I have no doubt at all that any time a criminal has gone into a school intending to commit violence they did so knowing nobody was going to be able to stop them," she says. "We've seen what happens when teachers do nothing or can do nothing, and that's not acceptable to me."
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools. In general, administrators, teachers' organizations, and law-enforcement agencies favor such laws. In the confusion of a school shooting, police officials have said, adding guns to the situation just makes the predicament more dangerous.
The state panel investigating the April 16 shootings by a mentally disturbed student who killed 33 people at Virginia Tech University (the nation's deadliest school shooting) agrees.
"If numerous people had been rushing around with handguns . the possibility of accidental or mistaken shootings would have increased significantly," the panel wrote.
But that has not stopped a push by the NRA and other gun advocates to allow guns on school property as a safety measure.
In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.
Louisiana lawmakers refused to pass a bill that would have outlawed guns in college dormitories, and legislators in Maine similarly killed a bill that would have given colleges the authority to prohibit guns on campuses.
Anthony Stavros, a member of the Nevada State Board of Regents governing higher education and a Las Vegas police captain, has proposed deputizing university employees as reserve officers, trained and qualified to carry weapons. The Iowa Board of Regents is close to allowing campus police to be armed.
But efforts to allow guns in grade schools and high schools tend not to get very far in state legislatures. The South Carolina measure failed. Administrators and the state teachers' union in Michigan have voiced strong opposition to the proposal there.
So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus. Utah's law applies to public colleges and universities. The University of Utah opposed the 2004 legislation that allows weapons on campus (including those owned by students with concealed carry permits), but lost in the state supreme court.
For high school teacher "Jane Doe," who takes her case to court this week, the issue is very personal.
"I have two children in school," she says, "and I would like to think that if something like that ever happened, there would be somebody there to do the right thing to protect my kids."
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What is next.. The National Guard in the halls? There is a Richland County Resource Deputy full time at the school. Look at the schools now.. is there a need for armed Teachers? The answer is simple.. NO. School is being held and students are being taught. Federal grant money is what pays for the resource officers in the schools around here. When jr. screws up in school, they are brought before the school board or expelled. 0 -
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Qualified to carry? Listen, most public school teachers are not qualified to TEACH, let alone carry a weapon...
You guys should really visit a public school- it's like the DMV with children.
The problem is parents aren't teaching their kids respect, discipline and what is 'right' these days.
And in comparison to Israeli Schools, its a completely different story. In Israel (not that I am a fan) kids are a bit more devoted, parents are strict and they dont have a cell phone up their a$$, with stupid rap music heroes and Paris Hilton inundating their daily lives.0 -
If they were allowed to carry it would be against what threat? An intruder in the building? Outside doors are locked and video in the halls. Officer is in building with County marked car outside. Would an intruder challenge the Police Officer ? The only other option is threat within the building. Who.. the students? They already know an Officer is present too. 0 -
Many school districts don't have the luxury of providing armed security full time...
The county I grew up in has 23 schools in it...15 elementary, 5 middle, and 3 highschools.
We'd need at least 23 deputies to cover all the schools (not to mention a couple to cover for sick days, ect)
We don't have 20 deputies to begin with...Nor do we have the budget to aquire them. We need more teachers in schools....not more cops
Putting an armed teacher in a school costs the district $0. Even if the school is required to carry some sort of liability insurance, it would cost far less than the cost of a full time police officer.0 -
Rack -ops, You are Daydreaming- come on! The liability ALONE will cost millions of $$ per county. The odd are teachers would not know how, where or what to carry. A kids get a hold of the gun? or the teacher can't hit a barn, and hits an innocent? $0? WHAT? How many teachers do you know?
They are mostly worried about Rodrigo stealing the pencils and learning Espanol, introducing a gun makes it that much more fkd up! What if you have a teacher on Prozac (A good 15% of our population ARE) and they Loose it?!
It has to start with the PARENTS.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
I strongly disagree with you. A county with that many schools should have more than sufficient abilities to budget accordingly.
Wrong. My hometown's economy went bust about 15 years ago. We still have a lot of people, but not a lot of money. Our teacher's salaries are the lowest in the area and class sizes have gotten out of hand. We do not have the money to pay for guards, period.
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Aside that, I'm confident that few would challenge any additional local taxes to hire on-campus security to protect their children.
Wrong again. Every time school tax increases come up, they get shot down.
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Short of this, I would encourage you to move to a community that respects the needs to protect the safety of their students.
Pardon me if I don't like the idea of a school fortified like a maximum security prison.
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Teachers are general civilians, not law enforcement, not security professionals, nor are they trained and mentally prepared to deal with such a responsibility.
Wow....this is an interesting quote. Especially considering the post you just made regarding the "Jena 6"
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
six people were bashing on one individual here in Montana, someone with a concealed weapons permit witnessing this would likely be within their rights to shoot all six to protect the sole victim. This has nothing to do with race, that is simply being used as an excuse. The six are all thugs (or wanna-be thugs) and deserve what they get. [B)]
So its ok for a civilian to shoot (unarmed) "thugs" who are beating on kid.......but not ok for a civilian to shoot an ARMED thug who is in the process of shooting his classmates
That's pretty strange logic.....must be a Montana thing0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
Many school districts don't have the luxury of providing armed security full time...
The county I grew up in has 23 schools in it...15 elementary, 5 middle, and 3 highschools.
We'd need at least 23 deputies to cover all the schools (not to mention a couple to cover for sick days, ect)
We don't have 20 deputies to begin with...Nor do we have the budget to aquire them. We need more teachers in schools....not more cops
Putting an armed teacher in a school costs the district $0. Even if the school is required to carry some sort of liability insurance, it would cost far less than the cost of a full time police officer.
I strongly disagree with you. A county with that many schools should have more than sufficient abilities to budget accordingly. Aside that, I'm confident that few would challenge any additional local taxes to hire on-campus security to protect their children. Short of this, I would encourage you to move to a community that respects the needs to protect the safety of their students. Also, there is no such thing as liability insurance for that application. Teachers are general civilians, not law enforcement, not security professionals, nor are they trained and mentally prepared to deal with such a responsibility. If I had children in school and I became aware of a teacher carrying on campus, I would immediately withdraw my children from that school and demand that teacher be fired. I do not believe it is appropriate and teachers should not be armed on any campus.
Jim
Maybe in your community. In Colorado (where I live), schools are slashing after-school programs like they're going out of style. Parents are picking up the tab on after-school sports, band, etc. in the public schools. Kids are constantly selling magazines and other garbage door-to-door to help pay for their after-school activities.
And, you'll pardon my opinion, but after Bailey, which occurred earlier this year or late last year (don't remember the date offhand) and Columbine, it is obvious that armed security in the schools are lacking.
You've got suicidal maniacs that go to schools because it is a huge, neon-flashing sign that states, "No guns here!" -- they're not worried about dying because they're suicidal, and they want to cause harm to our most precious resource -- this nation's children -- before they leave this earth. You have cops who don't know if they're supposed to storm the school and cause emotional trauma to kids or if they're supposed to wait it out and cause emotional trauma to kids.
You're worried about armed teachers because they may be irresponsible? Why on earth are you letting irresponsible adults take care of your kids five days a week, nine months a year? Are you insane?!?!?!?!0 -
Maybe all the poor school areas mentioned above should hire a grant writer and get educated themselves. There is Federal Grant money to hire Resource Officers available. Geesh.. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kyplumber
the bigger more important question is, should we force our children to be institutionalized by the state?
right on! and NO!0 -
Median Househould income for Montana is: $44,334
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/30000.html
Median Household income for my hometown is $33,158
http://censtats.census.gov/data/KY/1602133004.pdf
Yeah, all we care about is money....0 -
BTW: I still would like a clarification as to why it is ok to shot an unarmed "thug" but not an armed one 0 -
ok i am confused here...
isn't this a simple question, should an individual be able to carry a firearm where they work? it doesnt matter that she is a teacher, that she has a crazy ex husband, or that she is around kids.
come on guys, she, just like every one else, gets to protect herself.
some of the arguments above are just silly
you sound like a bunch of mush headed libs talking about her not being properly "qualified" or "trained"
or that its just not safe around kids???
the point here is, she does currently have a Concealed Handgun License in the state of Oregon, in Oregon a person with a CHL MAY carry into public schools, the medford school district does not dispute that fact, they say, that as an employee of the district she would violate district policy simply by possesing a firearm even with the CHL
so should one's employer be able to tell you whether you can carry or not?0 -
Why not just ask that same concealed carry Teacher to go ahead and board a commercial aircraft ... lets see it that flies... 0 -
quote:Rack -ops, You are Daydreaming- come on! The liability ALONE will cost millions of $$ per county. The odd are teachers would not know how, where or what to carry. A kids get a hold of the gun? or the teacher can't hit a barn, and hits an innocent? $0? WHAT? How many teachers do you know?
They are mostly worried about Rodrigo stealing the pencils and learning Espanol, introducing a gun makes it that much more fkd up! What if you have a teacher on Prozac (A good 15% of our population ARE) and they Loose it?!
How do we know YOU have the ability to carry a concealed weapon? How do we know YOU have the abilty to know what to carry, how to carry, and when to carry it? How do we know you have the abilty to "hit the side of a barn?" WE DON'T! Since we don't know that, I propose that YOUR right to carry, as guaranteed by the constitution, be revoked. After all...WE DON'T KNOW! Geesh.....!
BTW...I do know LOTS of teachers. In our county, albeit rural, lots of them frequent the same range I do, and I even (GASP) hunt with a few of them! I would be more than happy to see them with a CONCEALED handgun in the school. Sure beats the alternative! And before you start the "Your system is rural" bit...know this....one of the earliest school shootings TOOK PLACE IN THE COUNTY I LIVE IN (Heath High School)! One teacher with a concealed handgun could have prevented SOME of the death and destruction.0 -
if we allow qualified teachers to pack, we should also allow qualified students. 0 -
I think that there should be armed people on all campuses to protect our Kids.
How about a program that allows CHL holders, with a little extra training and screening, to volunteer to spend time in the schools for added security??
No cost, but to the volunteer.
On occasion, I have been asked to accompany a school field trip to provide additional security, by our school's administration. The folks in our itty bitty school system know that I have a CHL, and know that I ALWAYS carry.
I think it would work.
Doug0 -
In SC it is against the law to go onto another mans property without notification that you are armed. Employer's or business's do have the right to deny carry on their premise. 0 -
HobbyGuy, in the state of Oregon, ONLY the legislature has the authority to determine who can carry in public buildings, in Oregon, any public school is considered a "public" building.
so if I can walk onto the medford high school campus with my Glock, why cant a teacher there do the same?
the law here says that the schools have NO authority to say who can carry or not. and under oregon law there are three groups who can carry in "public" builings (which schools here ARE) 1. Military in the performance of official duty 2. Law enforcement 3. Any person otherwise licensed to carry a concealed weapon.
so we are talking about "legal carry in public"0 -
please do, and let me know if i am wrong.[;)] 0 -
Read on down in the 166's.. This covers it. 166.370
http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html0 -
I'm not concerned.
This is, after all, only the internet.
Doug0 -
No 0 -
Right on. A CHL does not make you competent. I know plenty of idiots with a CHL. Accidental discharge happened last week at the Gun Show here in Austin was by a CHL carrier. Not to mention the fact that the psychology of carrying changes the dynamic in a teaching environment- haven't you considered that?
A L.E.O. has a routine of thinking with the gun at his/her side. A teacher on the other hand is TEACHING SCHOOL, disciplining little Johnny, making sure little Emily doesn't throw up all over the floor, memorizing algebra formulas, etc. If the teacher is distracted for a 10th of a second, loses train of thought about 'the gun', then you have 27 lawyers and the DA up your butt.
If teachers carry it will be either:
A) Hardcore Training to make the school like a war zone
or Ill-suited TEACHERS with weapons and eminent major problems
(but Mommy, Mrs. Jones has a gun, can I take mines to school, yo?)0 -
quote:Originally posted by bingeebob
HobbyGuy, in the state of Oregon, ONLY the legislature has the authority to determine who can carry in public buildings, in Oregon, any public school is considered a "public" building.
so if I can walk onto the medford high school campus with my Glock, why cant a teacher there do the same?
the law here says that the schools have NO authority to say who can carry or not. and under oregon law there are three groups who can carry in "public" builings (which schools here ARE) 1. Military in the performance of official duty 2. Law enforcement 3. Any person otherwise licensed to carry a concealed weapon.
so we are talking about "legal carry in public"
+1
I now have more respect for the laws of Oregon. That's quite reasonable.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bingeebob
HobbyGuy, in the state of Oregon, ONLY the legislature has the authority to determine who can carry in public buildings, in Oregon, any public school is considered a "public" building.
so if I can walk onto the medford high school campus with my Glock, why cant a teacher there do the same?
the law here says that the schools have NO authority to say who can carry or not. and under Oregon law there are three groups who can carry in "public" buildings (which schools here ARE) 1. Military in the performance of official duty 2. Law enforcement 3. Any person otherwise licensed to carry a concealed weapon.
so we are talking about "legal carry in public"
Its true that the state of Oregon is the only one who controls where a gun can be carried but if you read the law further it also states that the State can give others the right to deny gun owners access to their premises.
So all Oregon schools deny their employees the right to carry guns on the premises as do many other businesses. But some schools deny citizens coming on their property the right to have firearms on their person, including people with concealed carry permits.
This is where the state and local authorities get into conflict about who has what right! The question needs to go to the top court in Oregon and be sorted out so we know who actually has the authority to deny permit holders to carry guns on their premises.
In Oregon we find that the city and county liberal authorities sometimes make up their own rules and do not follow state law! Allowing gay marriage in Portland was a recent example of that. Another example is the Port of Portland claiming that permit holders do not have the authority to carry weapons on their property, same with the Train and Bus folks ( MAX/Trimet ).
The law is not clear and the state needs to establish clear authority over local and county officials, if that is possible.0 -
What I pasted was in 05' it might not be the same now. Who knows.. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by iluvguns
How do we know YOU have the ability to carry a concealed weapon? How do we know YOU have the abilty to know what to carry, how to carry, and when to carry it? How do we know you have the abilty to "hit the side of a barn?" WE DON'T! Since we don't know that, I propose that YOUR right to carry, as guaranteed by the constitution, be revoked. After all...WE DON'T KNOW! Geesh.....!
BTW...I do know LOTS of teachers. In our county, albeit rural, lots of them frequent the same range I do, and I even (GASP) hunt with a few of them! I would be more than happy to see them with a CONCEALED handgun in the school. Sure beats the alternative! And before you start the "Your system is rural" bit...know this....one of the earliest school shootings TOOK PLACE IN THE COUNTY I LIVE IN (Heath High School)! One teacher with a concealed handgun could have prevented SOME of the death and destruction.
Going to the range and carrying during your job function are two TOTALLY different instances.
While you are shooting next to your teacher friends, ask them what their day is like. You will find that a teacher spends much of his/her time doing things that make carrying a weapon COMPLETELY impractical.
Now on the legal/ legislative end, there is no way in hell our government will pass such a resolution. Nationally we are an Urban/suburban society. 90% of the law is written from densely populated areas if you haven't already figured that out.
Look, I'm all for guns and protecting our families, but this topic is moot. Read up on government structure, checks and balances, TALK TO TEACHERS, and most of all Stop raising little fk-tards with Sega/Nintendo/PS2 and rap music crap. Turn the TV off and teach your kids respect, hard work, and discipline.0 -
I can see NY city adopting this when hell freezes over. 0 -
quote:A L.E.O. has a routine of thinking with the gun at his/her side.
Remember the video from a couple of years ago, and it even made the Today show plus other news outlets, of the Undercover Cop giving a demonstration in a classroom. BOOM! Shoots himself in the leg in front of the class? That LEO was really thinking with his gun at the time! IMHO...if a person has qualified to carry concealed, then they should be allowed to carry ANYWHERE they want.0
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