.50 cal...legitimate in Law Enforcement?
A long running debate among us cops. Does the .50 cal have a legit purpose in a Law Enforcement setting or should it be left to the guys in the military. I personaly think it is way too much for L.E.
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Originally posted by Txs
Electronic ignition disabling devices are ineffective against diesel engines.
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How's this? Diesel engines have been electronicly controled since 1993.0 -
99% of them can't hit a barn 10 feet away anyway, so lets give them a gun that can kill a locomotive they can do more damage that a way, at least they won't need road spikes anymore
what next frag grenades, and mortars?0 -
quote:Originally posted by yoshmyster
The way I see it if "I" can't have one they shouldn't have one either.
then move....[:p]
[}:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by MT357
Diesel engines have been electronicly controled since 1993.
So it's ineffective against what percentage of diesel engines out there?0 -
.50 BMG has a legitimate purpose in DAYCARE if the correct circumstances are presented. 0 -
I'm surprised so many people who claim to be supporters of the Second Ammendment are advocating gun control in this post. 0 -
I am surprised to see so much "cop bashing" on here. Speaking for myself, I am a very accurate marksman. Cops have a standard of which they have to meet in firearms qualifications, if they don't, they sit at a desk job or worse, they lose their powers of arrest. Granted, there are some cops who don't take the time to train as they should, but EVERY profession has it's share of slackers. I kinda take offense to the 99% remark. I probably could take my good ol' Glock and shoot circles around alot of 1911 shooters.(not all) And hit the occasional barn. The only use I see is in EXTREME situations where it would require either a very long range shot or to penetrate heavy cover. In any scenario, this would have to be a last resort tactic. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Civil Rights
I see no reason why law enforcement shouldnt have .50 cal rifles. I see no reason why private citizens shouldnt have them as well.
The difference is that public money is being spent to purchase the one, while private money is used to purchase the other.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by MT357
Diesel engines have been electronicly controled since 1993.
So it's ineffective against what percentage of diesel engines out there?
No more than 1%0 -
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
I am surprised to see so much "cop bashing" on here.
You'll get use to it, it's rather common on GB.0 -
Go figure...we put our lives on the line everyday for people to bash us. No pity party, no sob story, just the truth. That's ok, maybe the next cop he calls when he needs help will understand, too. 0 -
David..... Dont let it bug you. I just write it off to folks with a couple traffic tickets or an arrest they cant seem to let go of. 0 -
Hey, there's some real fine peace officers on this board! There is also some law enforcement types too.[V] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
I am surprised to see so much "cop bashing" on here. Speaking for myself, I am a very accurate marksman. Cops have a standard of which they have to meet in firearms qualifications, if they don't, they sit at a desk job or worse, they lose their powers of arrest. Granted, there are some cops who don't take the time to train as they should, but EVERY profession has it's share of slackers. I kinda take offense to the 99% remark. I probably could take my good ol' Glock and shoot circles around alot of 1911 shooters.(not all) And hit the occasional barn. The only use I see is in EXTREME situations where it would require either a very long range shot or to penetrate heavy cover. In any scenario, this would have to be a last resort tactic.
that is hilarious, we have 6 different police departments "qualify" at my range, and i have seen their "STANDARD", and it is a joke, a pitiful example of shootings skills, not only can i beat any of their best shooters, i can literally shoot the "test" 10 times in the same time allowed, and still beat them
wartiger, find some "civilian" competition such as ipsc or idpa, and test yourself against people who love to shoot, and do it more than once a year, sorry you took offense but police are not known for their shooting skills these days {since it's being caught on tape}, i don't expect each one to spend the time to become a master but their over all training is very weak, i myself would be highly offended being referred to as a marksmen[;)]0 -
some LEO's are asking for Chainguns too[:0] 0 -
A nearby metropolitan agency had a .50 caliber rifle donated, not purchased by tax dollars, and the plan was to use it on the helicopter to stop vehicle chases. Fly along low over the suspect vehicle and put one round through the hood. No more engine, no more chase, and the only "collateral damage" is a hole in the pavement. 0 -
A friend of mine is a SWAT sniper with the local police dept and he has a bolt action Barrett 50 with a 10 power Swarovski scope in case he needs it. 0 -
A lot of cops I have met could not hit a bull in the ass with a broom; WTH are they going to shoot with a .50?
There is no ligit LAW ENFORCEMENT use for a ma duce rifle.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
A nearby metropolitan agency had a .50 caliber rifle donated, not purchased by tax dollars, and the plan was to use it on the helicopter to stop vehicle chases. Fly along low over the suspect vehicle and put one round through the hood. No more engine, no more chase, and the only "collateral damage" is a hole in the pavement.
NOW THATS A GREAT IDEAL, i wonder who is going to drive the practice vehicle?, they are going to practice this correct, i mean shooting from a moving helicopter at a moving vehicle {usually at a high rate of speed} is going to take "some" practice, even a low flying helicopter in urban areas is not really that low, but i see no room for error here it's only civilian lives at stake no big deal0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
There is no ligit LAW ENFORCEMENT use for a ma duce rifle.
Sure there is, all cops are such terrible shots they need a M2 in order to hit anything.0 -
Originally posted by MT357
quote:No more than 1%I'm not going to ask that you show your source for that figure because posting a pic of your azz would get this thread poofed.[:D]
The correct answer is too many. This is why it's our military's SOP to post heavy weapons at approaches to high threat targets instead of gambling with methods that may or may not work. Nothing succeeds like success when you're talking about large vehicle borne IED's.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
NOW THATS A GREAT IDEAL, i wonder who is going to drive the practice vehicle?, they are going to practice this correct, i mean shooting from a moving helicopter at a moving vehicle {usually at a high rate of speed} is going to take "some" practice, even a low flying helicopter in urban areas is not really that low, but i see no room for error here it's only civilian lives at stake no big dealYou really don't have a clue how some things work out in the real world, do you?
This isn't some newly proposed experimental program. It's been around for several years and is SOP with several outfits.
Just stick with repeatedly telling us about your awesome range capabilities and how you know about all cop's capabilities because a hand full conduct qualifications on your range.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
NOW THATS A GREAT IDEAL, i wonder who is going to drive the practice vehicle?, they are going to practice this correct, i mean shooting from a moving helicopter at a moving vehicle {usually at a high rate of speed} is going to take "some" practice, even a low flying helicopter in urban areas is not really that low, but i see no room for error here it's only civilian lives at stake no big dealYou really don't have a clue how some things work out in the real world, do you?
This isn't some newly proposed experimental program. It's been around for several years and is SOP with several outfits.
Just stick with repeatedly telling us about your awesome range capabilities and how you know about all cop's capabilities because a hand full conduct qualifications on your range.
there is the problem right there, and i stand corrected {sarcasm}, i had no ideal we where talking about the military, and not police, this is the problem with the entire ideal to many cops think they are military, and confuse themselves with being a sop to American civilians
as far as my knowledge of police officers shooting abilities, i have traveled, and shot competition with police officers across the entire country, i was referring to the actual course of fire required to maintain their weapon, and it is a joke, it's a good thing doctors are not held to such low standards of getting a license to save lives
no other job as important in America can you take on so much responsibility with less than a semester of education, it needs improvement0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
NOW THATS A GREAT IDEAL, i wonder who is going to drive the practice vehicle?, they are going to practice this correct, i mean shooting from a moving helicopter at a moving vehicle {usually at a high rate of speed} is going to take "some" practice, even a low flying helicopter in urban areas is not really that low, but i see no room for error here it's only civilian lives at stake no big dealYou really don't have a clue how some things work out in the real world, do you?
This isn't some newly proposed experimental program. It's been around for several years and is SOP with several outfits.
Just stick with repeatedly telling us about your awesome range capabilities and how you know about all cop's capabilities because a hand full conduct qualifications on your range.
there is the problem right there, and i stand corrected {sarcasm}, i had no ideal we where talking about the military, and not police, this is the problem with the entire ideal to many cops think they are military, and confuse themselves with being a sop to American civilians
as far as my knowledge of police officers shooting abilities, i have traveled, and shot competition with police officers across the entire country, i was referring to the actual course of fire required to maintain their weapon, and it is a joke, it's a good thing doctors are not held to such low standards of getting a license to save lives.You lost me there. I didn't mention the military anywhere in my post.
As for the average officer's shooting abilities I'm with you that there's plenty of room for improvement in training programs, but there's a side to this you apparently aren't considering.
1000 rds. per month isn't anywhere near an excessive amount when it comes to maintaining a decent level of firearms proficiency. Now figure the ammunition cost for even a smallish agency of 50 cops, keeping in mind they can't shoot reloads due to firearms warranty issues. Then add to this the salaries for the extra ~8 hrs. per month range time for these people. Remember that realistically this has to be calculated using their overtime rate because these agencies are chronically short-handed due to existing budget constraints. As a citizen of this hypothetical town would you be willing to eat a tax increase to fund this level of training? Sadly, most local governments find it more economical to just let insurance take care of any possible liability issues that may arise.
This is the situation I'm stuck with on a daily basis...and these are the folks I depend upon to back me up. It's a matter of doing the best you can with one hand tied behind your back.
BTW-Nunn is a police firearms trainer with a smallish size agency. Ask him the real world hit ratio for the officers he trains on his range under such constraints.0 -
quote:This is the situation I'm stuck with on a daily basis...and these are the folks I depend upon to back me up. It's a matter of doing the best you can with one hand tied behind your back.
ah! we're getting somewhere, i don't expect every officer to shoot at master class level, i personally know way to many who don't even know how to properly clean their gun, and really sweat even passing their exam, my first wife was a small town cop, i attended several training exercises during that time, and through shooting competition i have met many more, not to mention the friends i have that are leo's from city, county and state, sure there are some that can really shoot i have competed with massad ayoob, and bob vogel, along with many many lower level shooters{police officers}, i was really shocked at how bad of a shot most of them really are, even in a controlled environment0 -
Not to divert this conversation, but please don't refer to Ayoob as a cop. That's just a misconception he fosters.
He was once an unpaid reserve cop with a backwoods PD where you could count it's full-time members on the fingers of one hand. He's milked this to the point where many assume he must be a real-live grizzled veteran.
He's just a student of others activities and an entertaining wordsmith. Sort of like "Sheriff" Jim Wilson. [;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
Not to divert this conversation, but please don't refer to Ayoob as a cop. That's just a misconception he fosters.
He was once an unpaid reserve cop with a backwoods PD where you could count it's full-time members on the fingers of one hand. He's milked this to the point where many assume he must be a real-live grizzled veteran.
He's just a student of others activities and an entertaining wordsmith. Sort of like "Sheriff" Jim Wilson. [;)]
he still holds a part time position since 1972, sorry to hear small departments do not qualify as "real cops"
just how big does a department have to be for the officers who require the same training to be "real cops"?0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
he still holds a part time position since 1972, sorry to hear small departments do not qualify as "real cops"
just how big does a department have to be for the officers who require the same training to be "real cops"?
Actually they don't have the same requirements between full and part time, not even close in many states. Reserve cops have even less training only 40 hours training in Illinois, and less in some states.
Besides, training has little to do with real world skills. Example...I know a SWAT team Captain who has been to thousands of hours of training, and read every book imaginable on police tactics, but he's never been on a raid, and therefore he ain't real SWAT.
The same applies for small town cops. Just because you went through the training doesn't mean you have what it takes to make it as a big city cop who deals with hot calls every day.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bhale187
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
he still holds a part time position since 1972, sorry to hear small departments do not qualify as "real cops"
just how big does a department have to be for the officers who require the same training to be "real cops"?
Actually they don't have the same requirements between full and part time, not even close in many states. Reserve cops have even less training only 40 hours training in Illinois, and less in some states.
Besides, training has little to do with real world skills. Example...I know a SWAT team Captain who has been to thousands of hours of training, and read every book imaginable on police tactics, but he's never been on a raid, and therefore he ain't real SWAT.
The same applies for small town cops. Just because you went through the training doesn't mean you have what it takes to make it as a big city cop who deals with hot calls every day.
i did say massad was part time, not the entire department, but this is intresting to know that smaller departments are not considered "real police officers", i'll remember that next time i get pulled over[:)], or the next time one gets killed in the line of duty i'll point out his department wasn't big enough for him to get proper honors0 -
I stand corrected. I should've said he continues to maintain this unpaid reserve officer postion with a four person PD in order to milk this.
I'm not saying small agency cops aren't real cops, just that such experience in no way qualifies one to actively foster the belief they're the be-all/end-all on the subject of police tactics.
Go take a look at this agency's crime/arrest stats for an idea of how much serious police experience this "veteran" could possibly have, then factor in that he's only rarely even present there. You could probably count his arrests over the past decade on your fingers and have digits left over. Not exactly a solid basis for his "36 year veteran" aura that he's created to appear street savvy in order to sell books and seminars telling others how to handle dangerous situations.
The only one funnier than this guy are the suckers who don't understand what they're being fed. It's other's work just put into his words. He's a professional student/writer/presenter who happens to hold a reserve cop commission.
http://www.granthamnh.net/police_department.htm0
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