Wildcat 12GA From Hell.--
I just got a super shotgun done,that shoots the real
fast sabots I mentioned in the sabot thread below..
We used a Savage 210 bolt action with heavy barrel and
stock.Brass cases are real long and we made them by putting
12ga size rims on BMG brass and straightening cases.Here is
picture of our case next to regular 12ga plastic.And our
chamber will also fire thw regular shells.Ed
fast sabots I mentioned in the sabot thread below..
We used a Savage 210 bolt action with heavy barrel and
stock.Brass cases are real long and we made them by putting
12ga size rims on BMG brass and straightening cases.Here is
picture of our case next to regular 12ga plastic.And our
chamber will also fire thw regular shells.Ed
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Mr.Hubel you are now on my hero list. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by hubel458
We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed
Umm I would not do that if I were you. The 1887 was not ment for high powered rounds, even if this is a copy and better metal. But if you want to blow away $500, around about price for the 1887, have at it but next time give me the money instead.[:D]0 -
The replica 87 was tested at White Labs at 43,000 psi,
with fast shotgun powder.Our slower powder 4759 loads at
much lower pressures won't harm it in plastic.
Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed0 -
Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.0 -
I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed0 -
We are making a big falling block
action by scaling up a nice looking one.
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.0 -
Dear God Hubel...superimpressive! I do, however, have some trepidation as regards the 1887, even with your case cut back by half?!?! Is that thing original? I would approach with caution as that is not the strongest action JMB ever devised! Either way, I really like what you are dooing there...tres impressive! 0 -
Sorry about that...I replied at the end of the FIRST page and missed all the technical datum you presented. I am really impressed, for whatever that is worth. Do you guys work on Marlin 1895 GG's? I would like to beef mine up and keep it chambered in 45/70 so that I might use some of the bolt action level loads I have seen for Mausers. I know of the conversions in 450 Alaskan and 510 Kodiak, but would just like a "Super" 45-70 lever gun. 0 -
Haven't worked on those guns. Maybe you
could do a longer version like 45-90.
Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed0 -
Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed0 -
Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.0 -
Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed0 -
hubel458, just curious to what kind of thumbhole stock is on that H&R. I've been looking for something styled that way. Thanks. 0 -
That stock is nothing you can buy for NEF
It is an early State Arms 50cal stock that I
cut apart and reworked and drilled a
stock bolt hole to fit NEF.You can buy
butt stock blanks on ebay and carve
one like that. Only put the thumbhole alittle
lower and the bottom of stock more horizontal
to the pistol grip part of thumbhole
for more strength.Ed0 -
Here is pic of the first finished model
breech block for scaleup model. You
hammer and trigger in the back of
the block. Ed0 -
Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed0 -
Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed0 -
Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed0 -
Man, there are some really talented and knowledgeable people on this board. What the heck am I doing here?????? Very impressive! 0 -
Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.0 -
Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed0 -
Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition like the 4759.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed0 -
Found another slower than shotgun powder that ignites
perfectly in 12ga plastic with small primers. It is
IMR 7383 surplus at $3 a lb. Starting loads 100 gr.
Full load with 600gr slug ia 140gr, gives 1800 plus
in NEF with 24" barrel. Used different 3" cases.
tested 730g with 7383. Perfect ignition.Extracts easy.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps in 3" plastic.
tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed0 -
tested 870gr hard slug with 7383 in 3"
plastic. Over 1500 fps in NEF short barrel.
I wish it had a longer 32" barrel..........
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed0 -
Ed,
Could you please straighten me out on the NEF. If I understand correctly, you are still using the factory barrel only rechambered to accept the 12GA FH (50BMG) brass at 3.75". You have adapted the hammer spring to strick hard enough to fire the 50BMG primers. You installed the thumbhole stock with additional weight, and that's it.
Did I miss anything?
Are there any down sides to haveing RMC make the 3.75" 12ga FH brass?
Would it be possible for them to set them up for large rifle primers?
I wish David White of the formally known "precision rifle works" was still out there. He was doing a lot of H&R/NEF barrel stubbing. I hope he pops up again. He rechambered some H&R barrels for me and put a nice break on a 500S&W handi rifle barrel. They had their own barrel catch blocks lined out and were going to start offering total custom H&R handi rifles. I don't really know what stopped them.
Looking forward to getting my hands on the brass you'll send.
Hope your doing well, thanks again!
Respectfully,
Jason Kophazy0 -
Jason,
David White is still around and doing some pretty neat things on encore/contender platform in addition to the H&R/NEF rifles. His website is www.dandtcustomgunworks.com and his prices are pretty good and work is top notch from what I hear.
Robert
quote:Originally posted by jkophazy
Ed,
Could you please straighten me out on the NEF. If I understand correctly, you are still using the factory barrel only rechambered to accept the 12GA FH (50BMG) brass at 3.75". You have adapted the hammer spring to strick hard enough to fire the 50BMG primers. You installed the thumbhole stock with additional weight, and that's it.
Did I miss anything?
Are there any down sides to haveing RMC make the 3.75" 12ga FH brass?
Would it be possible for them to set them up for large rifle primers?
I wish David White of the formally known "precision rifle works" was still out there. He was doing a lot of H&R/NEF barrel stubbing. I hope he pops up again. He rechambered some H&R barrels for me and put a nice break on a 500S&W handi rifle barrel. They had their own barrel catch blocks lined out and were going to start offering total custom H&R handi rifles. I don't really know what stopped them.
Looking forward to getting my hands on the brass you'll send.
Hope your doing well, thanks again!
Respectfully,
Jason Kophazy0 -
Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases, w/600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759.
Powders slower than shotgun type, that ignite
properly with small primers(shotgun-lg rifle);
we found 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that also works
with real heavy slugs Ed0 -
ED,
Where can you find the 7383?
The large rifle primers are used up to the 600NE. That's as far as my Handbook of cartridge conversions goes. Are large rifle primers rated for a higher pressure than the 209's?
Jason0 -
The 209 is a battary cup design, and normal shotgun shells only go up to around 15000LUP (lead units pressure).
Large rifle primers are usable up to 60000CUP (copper units pressure).0 -
Thanks for the info. What you think ED?
Jason0
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