Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
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Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
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Hello Lance,
Actually, I do need it... along with any other serial number that is in the 1,000,000 to 2,700,000 range.
Thanks for posting the information[:)]0 -
Forgot, checkered steel butt plate, no ring.
Lance0 -
Hi Bert. I am new to 94's and to Forum's as well. I hope I am doing this correctly. I also Emailed you the following information but after reading all the other posts, I thought others might find the information useful, (or not..LOL)
My "new to me" gun is:
S/N 1394209
94-30 W.C.F.-
Checkered steel butt plate
Blank top plate, only one screw at/near the tip
Not drilled for peep site
No PCMR or Martial
Proof Steel
NO saddle ring
Flat band
I hope this informatiuon is useful to you and perhaps to others who may be researching their own firearm
Tim G.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tgellatly
Hi Bert. I am new to 94's and to Forum's as well. I hope I am doing this correctly. I also Emailed you the following information but after reading all the other posts, I thought others might find the information useful, (or not..LOL)
My "new to me" gun is:
S/N 1394209
94-30 W.C.F.-
Checkered steel butt plate
Blank top plate, only one screw at/near the tip
Not drilled for peep site
No PCMR or Martial
Proof Steel
NO saddle ring
Flat band
I hope this informatiuon is useful to you and perhaps to others who may be researching their own firearm
Tim G.
Hello Tim,
Yes indeed, it is quite useful, and thank you very much for posting it[:)].
Based on the serial number, your Model 94 was manufactured in the late months of the year 1946 (most likely October). It should be a "flat-band" carbine, and based on your desription, it is a standard catalog gun.0 -
BERT,
Here is the info on the rifle that I am thinking about buying from my friend.
1. 1610299
2. 30 W.C.F.
3. After market Pachmayr
4. No tang markings
5. Yes, Factory Drilled, missing screws
6. No markings
7. "Winchester Proof Steel"
8. No saddle ring
9. N/A
10. N/A
11. N/A, milled band
12. N/A 9-1/8" forend
It also has a stamp on the bottom of the receiver just in front of the trigger which reads BF. The B is very clear but the F is somewhat of a guess.
I would like to send you pics for evaluation but not sure how to attach them.
I want to be up front with my friend and pay a fair price that both of us are comfortable with. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you for your efforts in this survey.
Kelly0 -
quote:Originally posted by tommix2
BERT,
Here is the info on the rifle that I am thinking about buying from my friend.
1. 1610299
2. 30 W.C.F.
3. After market Pachmayr
4. No tang markings
5. Yes, Factory Drilled, missing screws
6. No markings
7. "Winchester Proof Steel"
8. No saddle ring
9. N/A
10. N/A
11. N/A, milled band
12. N/A 9-1/8" forend
It also has a stamp on the bottom of the receiver just in front of the trigger which reads BF. The B is very clear but the F is somewhat of a guess.
I would like to send you pics for evaluation but not sure how to attach them.
I want to be up front with my friend and pay a fair price that both of us are comfortable with. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you for your efforts in this survey.
Kelly
Hello Kelly,
Your friend has a mid-year 1949 vintage Model 94. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that the drilled & tapped holes in the receiver are factory original, or that the Pachmayr recoil pad is original.
The "BF" near the trigger is an inspection stamp that was stamped on the gun during the assembly and fitting process.
Because of the probable non-factory alterations, it forever relegates that old Model 94 to being a "shooter" grade gun, and the value is most likely in the $250 - $300 range.0 -
Thank you Bert for your feedback. Good luck with the continuing survey.
Kelly0 -
quote:Originally posted by tommix2
Thank you Bert for your feedback. Good luck with the continuing survey.
Kelly
Thank you as well[:)].0 -
I have a 30 SRC, # 931306. carbine butt, unfired I believe, 30wcf 0 -
quote:Originally posted by adkjaq
I have a 30 SRC, # 931306. carbine butt, unfired I believe, 30wcf
Your SRC was manufactured in early August of 1921, and there is no such thing as an "unfired" Winchester. Winchester fired the gun at least twice with proof loads, and then another 6-8 shots to set the sights.0 -
Another 30 WCF, SRC 1013904 0 -
quote:Originally posted by adkjaq
Another 30 WCF, SRC 1013904
Hello, and thanks for the information. The serial number indicates that it was manufactured in January of 1928.
I assume that it has the standard style carbine butt plate, but which type of upper tang stamp does it have? It could be either a Type-5 or a Type-6.0 -
Hi Bert.
Model 94
#1491059
25-35 W.C.F.
Not martial marked
Flat Band
standard sights
recvr not drilled/tapped
flat checked buttplate
blank top tang, single screw
straight cut serrated hammer
have not checked date on bottom of barrel
I am interesting in knowing if the factory changed bluing solution or application methods pre-War, during or post War. I ask this because there seems to be nice blue retention on pre War band/magazine tubes while the flat band period seem to have more brown/plum flat bands/magazine tubes.
Thanks for all your work and information here.
Lee0 -
quote:Originally posted by middlefork
Hi Bert.
Model 94
#1491059
25-35 W.C.F.
Not martial marked
Flat Band
standard sights
recvr not drilled/tapped
flat checked buttplate
blank top tang, single screw
straight cut serrated hammer
have not checked date on bottom of barrel
I am interesting in knowing if the factory changed bluing solution or application methods pre-War, during or post War. I ask this because there seems to be nice blue retention on pre War band/magazine tubes while the flat band period seem to have more brown/plum flat bands/magazine tubes.
Thanks for all your work and information here.
Lee
Hello Lee,
Serial number 1491059 was manufactured in the Spring of 1948. It should have a "48" marked barrel.
Winchester changed the bluing formula circa 1939.0 -
I went to see a 94 today at a pawn shop. The owner said it is a pre WW2, but after researching the serial number turns out to be 1942.
Serial number 1207204
Carbine
Milled Band
Type 6 tang stamp, two screws
.32 Win Special
No saddle ring
Can't say about proof marks,
Question. Are tang marks not indicative of older models than 1942?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mahely4.5
I went to see a 94 today at a pawn shop. The owner said it is a pre WW2, but after researching the serial number turns out to be 1942.
Serial number 1207204
Carbine
Milled Band
Type 6 tang stamp, two screws
.32 Win Special
No saddle ring
Can't say about proof marks,
Question. Are tang marks not indicative of older models than 1942?
The owner is correct... serial number 1207204 is indeed a Pre-War manufactured gun... April 1939 to be exact. This is another case where Madis' serial number listing is out-to-lunch.
Thanks for posting the information[:)].
Edit: In reviewing my data, that Carbine should have a Type-7 upper tang stamp (the one without the dashes), and it quite possibly has a "W" below the serial number... can you please confirm both for me?0 -
Hello again. I will check that out tomorrow if it is still there. Big question though. If I end up buying the gun, I would love to know where to confirm the data that says it is indeed a pre-war model? Upon resale (if ever) people will probably go to the blue book of gun values and the serial number will still say 1942! I would need some better source. Owner also claims the barrel has the manufacture date and it states 1939 on it (although it requires dissassembly and I did not make him do it).
Thanks again0 -
In the not so distant future, I will publish a new (corrected) Winchester serialization book. Hopefully, other sources (like the Blue Book) will correct the information they have falsely published at that time. In the mean time, you can always refer someone to this forum (or to me), and I will confirm the DOM. 0 -
I went back today and checked it out. Yes, indeed, type 7 tang inscription (without the lines) and also a W underneath the serial number. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mahely4.5
I went back today and checked it out. Yes, indeed, type 7 tang inscription (without the lines) and also a W underneath the serial number.
Just as I suspected... thanks for the follow-up information[:)].0 -
I sent info earlier on a 1946 ser. no. 94. I thought I would include an earlier one just for info. ser. no. 910800 saddle ring carbine with ladder sight and lyman tang sight 30wfc. 90 plus percent no marks on wood bluing wear on reciver almost plumb color now. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by chw
I sent info earlier on a 1946 ser. no. 94. I thought I would include an earlier one just for info. ser. no. 910800 saddle ring carbine with ladder sight and lyman tang sight 30wfc. 90 plus percent no marks on wood bluing wear on reciver almost plumb color now.
It is an August 1920 vintage SRC. The tang sight was most likely added after the fact, but that does not hurt anything. It sounds like a good one[^].0 -
OK here goes
1. 537095
2. 30 W.C.F no model 94 preceeding it
3. concave steel
4. type 5 but no &FGN after
5. not drilled and tapped
6. not martially marked
7. nickle steel barrel
8. no saddle ring
1. 1388364
2.model 94 - 30 W.C.F. -
3. checkered steel
4. blank tang
5. not drilled for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
9. no W
11. flat band
1. 1142465
2. model 94 - winchester trademark - 30 W.C.F. -
3. serrated steel
4. type 6
5. not drilled for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
1. 1107790
2. winchester trademark - 30 W.C.F. -
3. carbine steel
4. type 6
5. not drilled for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
1. 2469226
2. winchester trademark - model - 94 - 32 win spl -
3. checkered steel
4. blank tang
5. drilled and tapped for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
Very interesting stuff. Please comment on anything of note with these guns.0 -
Please see my comments in blue, and thank you very much for posting the information[:)]
quote:Originally posted by yellowdog52
OK here goes
1. 537095 (manufactured January 1912)
2. 30 W.C.F no model 94 preceeding it
3. concave steel (most likely it is a crescent "rifle" butt)
4. type 5 but no &FGN after (it is a Type-3 upper tang marking)
5. not drilled and tapped
6. not martially marked
7. nickle steel barrel
8. no saddle ring (because it most likely is a Sporting Rifle versus a Carbine)
1. 1388364 (manufactured in the second half of the year 1946)
2.model 94 - 30 W.C.F. -
3. checkered steel
4. blank tang
5. not drilled for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
9. no W
11. flat band
Completely standard for its vintage
1. 1142465 (manufactured in September of 1937)
2. model 94 - winchester trademark - 30 W.C.F. -
3. serrated steel
4. type 6
5. not drilled for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
Completely standard for its vintage
1. 1107790 (manufactured in May of 1936)
2. winchester trademark - 30 W.C.F. -
3. carbine steel
4. type 6
5. not drilled for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
Completely standard for its vintage
1. 2469226 [blue](manufactured in early 1961)
2. winchester trademark - model - 94 - 32 win spl -
3. checkered steel
4. blank tang
5. drilled and tapped for peep
6. not martially marked
7. proof steel
8. no saddle ring
Completely standard for its vintage[/blue]
Very interesting stuff. Please comment on anything of note with these guns.0 -
hi bert i have a mod94 win in 32 special ser#2353690..it is drilled for a peep sight it had a recoil pad on that i removed hope to find the correct metal butt plate at agun show,it has md stamped in front of the trigger .32 win spl on the barrel winchester proof steel also ..thanx for a very interesting site 0 -
quote:Originally posted by heywood
hi bert i have a mod94 win in 32 special ser#2353690..it is drilled for a peep sight it had a recoil pad on that i removed hope to find the correct metal butt plate at agun show,it has md stamped in front of the trigger .32 win spl on the barrel winchester proof steel also ..thanx for a very interesting site
Thank you for posting the information on your mid-year 1959 vintage Model 94, and good luck in finding a replacement butt plate for it[:)].0 -
I have a plate 0 -
would you like to sell it 0 -
quote:Originally posted by heywood
would you like to sell it
Please take this off the forum... offers to sell or buy are verbotin on the forums.0 -
Bert, Have one more. Ser# 2034413, -MODEL-94-30-30-WIN, Proof steel, checkered butt plate, receiver drilled for peep site, No tang marking, Milled bands, short forearm, hooded front site, std 20" carbine, full length tube, finish 85% some pitting, bore good. Have a good day. Kyle 0
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