Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
Pinned
Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
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quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert, Have one more. Ser# 2034413, -MODEL-94-30-30-WIN, Proof steel, checkered butt plate, receiver drilled for peep site, No tang marking, Milled bands, short forearm, hooded front site, std 20" carbine, full length tube, finish 85% some pitting, bore good. Have a good day. Kyle
Hello Kyle,
It is a standard Carbine, and it was manufactured late in the year 1953.
Thank you very much for posting the information[:)].0 -
Bert, An unusual one Ser.# 457660, take down rifle, 30 W.C.F., nickel steel, 19" oct barrel,type 3 tang markings, crescent butt stock, deluxe wood, good bore and tight action, a short barrel but I think it was special ordered this way, no evidence of any changes except one tragic one. It was re blued some time ago as the hammer, trigger, and lever are also blue instead of case color. Keep up the good work. Kyle 0 -
Bert, PS I am trying to get a hold of a few more. Will keep you in the loop. Kyle 0 -
Hello Kyle,
Serial 457660 went through the Polishing Room very late in the month of May, 1910.
I personally would be very suspicious of a 19-inch octagon barrel.0 -
Bert, You may be correct about the 19" barrel. I did compare it to another take down and the two dove tails are the correct distance from the muzzle. It would have to been cut off more than 4" to remove the old dove tails. Anyway I did not pay big bucks for it because of the refinish. Either way it's a neat gun and I liked it. I'm still learning. Thanks for your input. Kyle 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert, You may be correct about the 19" barrel. I did compare it to another take down and the two dove tails are the correct distance from the muzzle. It would have to been cut off more than 4" to remove the old dove tails. Anyway I did not pay big bucks for it because of the refinish. Either way it's a neat gun and I liked it. I'm still learning. Thanks for your input. Kyle
You are very welcome[:)].0 -
I dont know much about these guns but yesterday I picked this one up for $10 figured even if I cant do anything with it so what it was only $10! haha the SN is 1188700 its in pretty bad shape as you can see. Just wondering what year it was made and if it would be worth fixing. thanks for your time.
p.s. im not interested in fixing it up to sell just wondering how much it might cost to make shootable
And yes i got it from a tweeker!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by zagman_420
I dont know much about these guns but yesterday I picked this one up for $10 figured even if I cant do anything with it so what it was only $10! haha the SN is 1188700 its in pretty bad shape as you can see. Just wondering what year it was made and if it would be worth fixing. thanks for your time.
p.s. im not interested in fixing it up to sell just wondering how much it might cost to make shootable
And yes i got it from a tweeker!!!
The serial number tells me that it was made in late August of 1938.
The condition is extremely poor, and I very much doubt that it could ever be resurrected into a "safe" to fire gun again. It is simply a curio now.0 -
That's about what I figured. Thanks again 0 -
survey input ....
mdl 94 s/n: 1595339
caliber marking: 30 W.C.F.
butt plate: flat checkered steel
tang marking: blank
factory drilled for peep sight: no
US martial or PCMR: no
Proof steel marking: yes
saddle ring: no
barrel band: milled
Question: I have a model 12 made in 1940 (serial 824389) that has the "W" stamp below the serial number. Do you think it means the same thing as on the model 94 (factory refinish)?0 -
quote:Originally posted by rec0546
survey input ....
mdl 94 s/n: 1595339
caliber marking: 30 W.C.F.
butt plate: flat checkered steel
tang marking: blank
factory drilled for peep sight: no
US martial or PCMR: no
Proof steel marking: yes
saddle ring: no
barrel band: milled
Question: I have a model 12 made in 1940 (serial 824389) that has the "W" stamp below the serial number. Do you think it means the same thing as on the model 94 (factory refinish)?
Your Model 94 is a 1949 (early part of the year) production carbine, and is completely standard for its vintage.
In regards to your question about the "W" on your 1940 vintage Model 12, Yes, the "W" means the same thing. I have seen the same "W" stamp on Model 12s, 97s, 64s, 65s, and 94s, and I am sure there are a few more models that might have it as well.0 -
Hi everybody My uncle left me his model 64 30wcf. I think its from the mid 1950's. Is there anything I can do about rust and minor pitting? How can I find out if is the deluxe? This rifle means a lot to me and I want to bring it back to it's former glory. Thanks for your help SN 1371217 before i forget on the barrel above the factory mark there is a little "post" with the word "marble" on it. What is this for? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ih8chrome
Hi everybody My uncle left me his model 64 30wcf. I think its from the mid 1950's. Is there anything I can do about rust and minor pitting? How can I find out if is the deluxe? This rifle means a lot to me and I want to bring it back to it's former glory. Thanks for your help SN 1371217 before i forget on the barrel above the factory mark there is a little "post" with the word "marble" on it. What is this for?
Hello,
The serial number on your Model 64 indicates that it is a 1946 vintage gun. If you can post (or send me) pictures of it, I can very quickly identify which variation it is, and also answer any other questions you may have about it.0 -
Hi Bert,
I have a Model 94 30 WCF carbine that has the nickle barrel and saddle ring. The serial number is #8998xx. The butt plate is the steel one. Would you tell me when this rifle was built?
Also, the rear site is not original. Do you know of a source that would have the correct site available? The stock is a dark color and it appears that someone tried an amateur job of refinishing. I'm not in the market to sell it, so the stock is not a big deal to me as far as ruining the resale value. I would like to get it back to the original as far as the sight goes though.
Thanks for any info you have.
Tom0 -
quote:Originally posted by Tom Lee A
Hi Bert,
I have a Model 94 30 WCF carbine that has the nickle barrel and saddle ring. The serial number is #8998xx. The butt plate is the steel one. Would you tell me when this rifle was built?
Also, the rear site is not original. Do you know of a source that would have the correct site available? The stock is a dark color and it appears that someone tried an amateur job of refinishing. I'm not in the market to sell it, so the stock is not a big deal to me as far as ruining the resale value. I would like to get it back to the original as far as the sight goes though.
Thanks for any info you have.
Tom
Early in the month of May, 1920. The correct sight is the Carbine (ladder style). If you can not find one here on Gunbroker, give these guys a call - http://www.tapaderaswinchesters.com/0 -
Got one for ya, Bert,
I know it wasn't sent this way but here she goes;
Ser # 26721 (the 2nd 2 is upside down, same style)
BBL is octogon 21 3/4"
3/4 mag
long rifle type forend w/tip
folding sight with slide bar
no saddle ring
30 WCF, marked on top flat infront of receiver
Only markings under barrel are- .NS. VP (in oval) 94 and a star.
Tang is marked-
Model 1894
-WINCHESTER-
PAT AUG 21, 1894
Lance0 -
quote:Originally posted by zink
Got one for ya, Bert,
I know it wasn't sent this way but here she goes;
Ser # 26721 (the 2nd 2 is upside down, same style)
BBL is octogon 21 3/4"
3/4 mag
long rifle type forend w/tip
folding sight with slide bar
no saddle ring
30 WCF, marked on top flat infront of receiver
Only markings under barrel are- .NS. VP (in oval) 94 and a star.
Tang is marked-
Model 1894
-WINCHESTER-
PAT AUG 21, 1894
Lance
Can you send me a picture of the serial number?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by zink
Got one for ya, Bert,
I know it wasn't sent this way but here she goes;
Ser # 26721 (the 2nd 2 is upside down, same style)
BBL is octogon 21 3/4"
3/4 mag
long rifle type forend w/tip
folding sight with slide bar
no saddle ring
30 WCF, marked on top flat infront of receiver
Only markings under barrel are- .NS. VP (in oval) 94 and a star.
Tang is marked-
Model 1894
-WINCHESTER-
PAT AUG 21, 1894
Lance
Can you send me a picture of the serial number?
It is at work. I will try to get it to you Saturday.
Lance0 -
Bert
I sent an email to your MSN account with pics. Are you the one That looked at my gun last night through a collector site0 -
quote:Originally posted by scout32flc
Bert
I sent an email to your MSN account with pics. Are you the one That looked at my gun last night through a collector site
Do you own the Model 55 that was your great grandfather's?0 -
1. 1,117,214
2. Mine is stamped from left to right
-"winchester (over) proof steel"- MODEL 94- WINCHESTER (over) -trade mark--30 w.c.f
3. Serrated steel butt plate as seen in your picture
4. Type 7
5. No
6. No
7. Yes "proof steel"
8. No
9-14 N/A
Although there is an "A" stamped on the bottom of the receiver inside the trigger guard/loop just in front of the trigger
Mine also has a milled barrel band as seen in your pictures
Bert Any Idea of date of manuf and approximate value?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
1. 1,117,214
2. Mine is stamped from left to right
-"winchester (over) proof steel"- MODEL 94- WINCHESTER (over) -trade mark--30 w.c.f
3. Serrated steel butt plate as seen in your picture
4. Type 7
5. No
6. No
7. Yes "proof steel"
8. No
9-14 N/A
Although there is an "A" stamped on the bottom of the receiver inside the trigger guard/loop just in front of the trigger
Mine also has a milled barrel band as seen in your pictures
Bert Any Idea of date of manuf and approximate value?
The date of manufacture is easy... October 1936. You listed it as having a Type-7 upper tang stamp, but that is not possible (based on when it was manufactured). It should have the Type-6 marking (with the dashes preceeding and following the text on the second and third lines).
As for the value, I really need to see the gun (or good quality pictures of it). If possible, please start a new topic on the Experts forum, and post the pictures there. Or, you can send pictures to me directly at Win1885@msn.com0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
It should have the Type-6 marking (with the dashes preceeding and following the text on the second and third lines).
WHEN I GET SOME BETTER PICTURES I WILL START A NEW THREAD
THANKS
CLINT0 -
OK, I see what the issus is... you originally listed the serial number as "1117214" when in fact it is "1177214"... that 60,000 difference makes a big difference[:0].
Serial 1177214 was manufactured in May of 1938, and it is correct with the Type-7 tang stamp.
It appears that there is no finish remaining on the receiver frame, but the rest of the gun looks very good.0 -
Bert,
My grandfather passed along this Model 94, .30 W.C.F. and I figured I would see what info I could find out about it.
1. 205357
2. .30 W.C.F.
3 Carbine Butt Plate
4. Based on the pictures I think it's a Type 5
Not sure about the rest except that there is no saddle ring. Thanks0 -
quote:Originally posted by foooootz
Bert,
My grandfather passed along this Model 94, .30 W.C.F. and I figured I would see what info I could find out about it.
1. 205357
2. .30 W.C.F.
3 Carbine Butt Plate
4. Based on the pictures I think it's a Type 5
Not sure about the rest except that there is no saddle ring. Thanks
Something is not correct... serial number 205357 was manufactured very early in the year 1904, and as such, it should have a Type-1A tang stamp. It should also be a saddle ring carbine. Can you post a few pictures of it?0 -
0
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OK, I mistakenly assumed that you had a Carbine... instead, it is a Sporting Rifle. A few questions for you;
1. What is the barrel length? (standard was 26")
2. Can you post a picture of the rear sight?0 -
See you've been on this interesting project awhile.Don't know if you need more data, but here's a Mod 64 for your list.
1554358
-MODEL 64-32W.S.-
Butt: Checkered steel(widows peak same as 70 and 71)
Blank tang
factory drilled-yes
N/A No martial or PCMR marking
-WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL-
N/A No ring
band N/A
Deer Rifle w/checker, detach swivels etc
DV stamp just forward of trigger0 -
quote:Originally posted by drl50
See you've been on this interesting project awhile.Don't know if you need more data, but here's a Mod 64 for your list.
1554358
-MODEL 64-32W.S.-
Butt: Checkered steel(widows peak same as 70 and 71)
Blank tang
factory drilled-yes
N/A No martial or PCMR marking
-WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL-
N/A No ring
band N/A
Deer Rifle w/checker, detach swivels etc
DV stamp just forward of trigger
Hello drl50,
Yes, it is an interesting project, and YES, I still very much need more data[:p].
Based on the information that I have compiled thus far, this is what I can tell you about your Model 64;
(1) It was manufactured very late in the year 1948 (most likely in November). It will have a "48" date marked on the bottom of the barrel (under the forend stock).
(2) It is the 354th Model 64 I have surveyed thus far, and the 80th one that is a Deer Rifle.
(3) It is the 90th Model 64 in caliber 32 W.S. that I have surveyed (slightly more than 25% were made in this caliber).
If you (or anyone else) has additional questions or information they would like to contribute, please let me know.0
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