Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
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Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
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bert,,have 3 64's ,
md-64 deluxe ser.# 1582637,30W.C.F.,rec.drilled,chkrd.stl.wdows pk. butt
md 64dlx. ser.# 1761090,32 WIN. SPL.- rec-drld. same butt as above,
md.64 std. ser#1660965,32 W.S.-rec.drld. same butt,proof steel,no tang mark on all three,and all 3 are proof steel,
Hope this helps some,
rich0 -
quote:Originally posted by checkerman1
bert,,have 3 64's ,
md-64 deluxe ser.# 1582637,30W.C.F.,rec.drilled,chkrd.stl.wdows pk. butt
md 64dlx. ser.# 1761090,32 WIN. SPL.- rec-drld. same butt as above,
md.64 std. ser#1660965,32 W.S.-rec.drld. same butt,proof steel,no tang mark on all three,and all 3 are proof steel,
Hope this helps some,
rich
Hello Rich,
Thank you very for posting the information on your Model 64s, and Yes indeed, it helps a lot[:)]
1. Serial 1582637 is a 1949 vintage
2. Serial 1660965 is a 1950 vintage
3. Serial 1761090 is a 1951 vintage0 -
Bert, Have another 1894 here. This is my best one I just acquired. Came from the "B" collection recently sold. A high dollar gun. Ser# 287209 (letterable) Deer rifle, Deluxe, 26" full oct barrel, Double set triggers, Take down, Front site Lyman flip up hooded peep type, rear barrel site std marbles ramp type, Tang site Lyman #2 with the little flip out peep site, Cal 32W.S. Deluxe burl wood factory checkered stocks. Pistol grip, Finish 95% with 50% case color remaining in the lever. Finish all original triggers function perfect, bore very good or better. 0 -
Hello Kyle,
If you have not lettered it, you should. Please let me know what the received in warehouse date was whne you get the letter.0 -
Bert, I plan to. If I understand it correctly there were only 118 TD rifles made of the first 350,000. Is that correct? Kyle 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert, I plan to. If I understand it correctly there were only 118 TD rifles made of the first 350,000. Is that correct? Kyle
No, that is not correct. Please refer to my Sticky post about the Model 1894... nearly 27,000 Take Down Rifles were made in the first 353,999 Model 1894s manufactured. The (118) number is only those that are listed as having a second factory supplied barrel assembly.0 -
Model 94
1335063
94-32W.S.
Serrated steel
type 7
Not drilled
Milled band
Model 1894 sporting
286670
full Octagon
full magazine
32W.S.
Nickel steel Barrel
drilled for lyman's sight , marked Lyman's Pat.JUNE 25,95
rear sight missing
June0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrfixit65
Model 94
1335063
94-32W.S.
Serrated steel
type 7
Not drilled
Milled band
Model 1894 sporting
286670
full Octagon
full magazine
32W.S.
Nickel steel Barrel
drilled for lyman's sight , marked Lyman's Pat.JUNE 25,95
rear sight missing
June
Serial 1335063 is a May 1942 vintage gun, and it is completely standard.
Serial 286670 is a standard Sporting Rifle, manufactured in late 1905 (November).0 -
Bert, Regarding the 94 listed a few posts up.. Ser #287209 Friend was in Denver last week. He checked with the lady from Cody who was there. Had her laptop and found the following. Of course is not a factory letter but she did confirm the following. Ship date 1-15-08 and order # R&R on 11-8-15 and order # Confirms all of the special features Butt listed as SBR correct, barrel correct, double set correct, stock CS and PG correct, takedown correct. This little 94 is getting better FYI Finish org 95%+ Kyle 0 -
Hello Kyle,
It appears you have a true winner... all of those special order features add serious $$$ to the collector value. If you are able, I would appreciate seeing pictures of it sometime.0 -
Bert, I will work on it. I've never done that before. My son will help an old guy give it a go. Thanks Kyle 0 -
Bert in the mean time, Here is one that is in the middle where you are looking. Ser #1223251 Std carbine, 30 W.C.F., serrated butt plate, milled bands, no drilling, sites look std, I look at the post to give you the tang type. Blue book says 42 but I think you will say 39 DOM. My friend will be at the show in Cody in a few weeks. He will look for another "holder" for me. I want a "war" gun. Kyle 0 -
Opps, forgot It does have the W. Kyle 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert in the mean time, Here is one that is in the middle where you are looking. Ser #1223251 Std carbine, 30 W.C.F., serrated butt plate, milled bands, no drilling, sites look std, I look at the post to give you the tang type. Blue book says 42 but I think you will say 39 DOM. My friend will be at the show in Cody in a few weeks. He will look for another "holder" for me. I want a "war" gun. Kyle
Hello Kyle,
Thanks for the new data[:)]
Serial number 1223251 went through the Polishing room in March of 1940, and it should have the Type-7 upper tang stamp.
In order to have a "War" gun (I assume you mean WW II), you will need to find one in the 1303819 - 1352066 serial range (December 1st, 1941 - December 29th, 1945)0 -
Bert, First- Yes it has a type 7 tang mark. As far as the "War" guns go I have a couple from the WW1 years a couple from Korea and one from Vietnam years. Since WW2 generally is thought to have started on 8 Dec. 41 and ended on 9 Sept 45. I have kinda figured that the range would be from 1,305,000 to 1,345,000. Isn't 40,000 about the right number produced? And wasn't most of these made for the civilian guards- the one who watched our coasts for U boats and Japanese subs? I have read that these civilians were to shoot at any periscope spotted off the coast. I do know that the Japanese had big plans to launch chemical weapons on Washington DC and NYC. They had built several subs that carried 3 planes each the I-400 and I-401 were a couple of these. They were in route to the East coast when we bombed Japan. Kyle 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert, First- Yes it has a type 7 tang mark. As far as the "War" guns go I have a couple from the WW1 years a couple from Korea and one from Vietnam years. Since WW2 generally is thought to have started on 8 Dec. 41 and ended on 9 Sept 45. I have kinda figured that the range would be from 1,305,000 to 1,345,000. Isn't 40,000 about the right number produced? And wasn't most of these made for the civilian guards- the one who watched our coasts for U boats and Japanese subs? I have read that these civilians were to shoot at any periscope spotted off the coast. I do know that the Japanese had big plans to launch chemical weapons on Washington DC and NYC. They had built several subs that carried 3 planes each the I-400 and I-401 were a couple of these. They were in route to the East coast when we bombed Japan. Kyle
Hello Kyle,
Given the time period you specify, the serial range you want to search for is 1303818 - 1343510 (December 1st, 1942 - September 28th, 1945).
Yes, 40,000 is very close to the number made during WW II, but very few of them were made for, or used by, civilian guard units. The only known WW II Model 94s that were specifically made for such use were the 2,500 that were ordered and delivered to the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers (P.C.M.R.) in the Candian Province of British Columbia. Those guns were all made and delivered in 1942 (serial number range 1317167 - 1342533).
During the WW II years, the bulk of the 40,000 guns were made in 1942 (29,882). That said, 1943 was the only year in which there was a Zero production number. In 1944, just (13) were made, all in November. Regular production resumed in June of 1945 at serial number 1343197, and ended with serial number 1352066 on December 29th, 1945.0 -
i aquired 1 several years ago the serial# starts w a 5 i know for sure i think it is 7 digits i'll check when i get home. if it is do you still want the rest of the info or is it not usefull info to you 0 -
quote:Originally posted by rockscrambler
i aquired 1 several years ago the serial# starts w a 5 i know for sure i think it is 7 digits i'll check when i get home. if it is do you still want the rest of the info or is it not usefull info to you
Hello,
If the serial number is 5,000,000+, then no, it is not useful to my survey. Thanks for asking though.0 -
Bert, I have a new one in my lap that may interest you. Model 1894 32WS Ser# 107731. You have this gun listed in your "facts" list. According to the factory letter and other info this gun was the very first gun made in that cal. Ship date 10-5-01. This gun is a "test" gun. Is was "Taken to Mr Wheeler for excessive testing" R&R in 06 and again in 14. I know that by ser# you have 27,158 listed as the first but it was shipped almost 2 years later than this one. I have additional info. Tell me what you think. I would guess that you have layed your eyes on this gun before. Kyle 0 -
Hello Kyle,
Did you recently buy that rifle from Russ? I am in Cody, WY as I write this, and will be in the research office for several hours tomorrow (Thursday).
I would like any additional information available, and yes, I did see the rifle a few years ago.0 -
It came back from Cody last week. I was not there. The gun came to me from a friend who was there, Paul. I assume he got it from Russ in a complex 5 gun trade. Paul really just likes 30 WCF and he knows I like 32's. Kyle 0 -
Hey Bert , I looks like you posted a reply to my last post but it never showed up. Thanks Kyle 0 -
Hello Kyle,
I spoke with Russ, and he confirmed that Paul V. got the rifle for you.0 -
Bert, I'm going to look at another 94 that came from Cody. ser#400K has supposed factory engraved and matted barrel 3X wood. Paul said if it was letterable would be 6 fig apparently is that good. I'll let you know 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert, I'm going to look at another 94 that came from Cody. ser#400K has supposed factory engraved and matted barrel 3X wood. Paul said if it was letterable would be 6 fig apparently is that good. I'll let you know
Kyle,
I will need to see very clear close-up pictures of it to properly assess it.0 -
Hey Bert,
Nothing real pressing tonight so while on a cleaning mission I recorded all info pertinent to your inquiry.
Oldest first.
782769/ .30 W.C.F. / carbine style butt pl / type 4 / not drilled for Peep / 6. none marked
nickel steel / has saddle ring (and leather strap even)
1,633,154 / mod. 94 .30 W.C.F. / not known (customized) / none (customized) / not drilled
6. not mkd / proof steel / no saddle ring / milled bbl band
2,386,436 / mod. 94 30-30 Win. / chkd stl / no tang mkg / drilled for peep / prf stl / no saddle ring
2,474,484 / mod. 94 30-30 Win. / chkd stl / drilled for peep / prf stl / no saddle ring
2,558,376 / mod. 94 30-30 Win. / chkd stl / drilled for peep / prf stl / no saddle ring
Happy Trails0 -
quote:Originally posted by 53hawkeye
Hey Bert,
Nothing real pressing tonight so while on a cleaning mission I recorded all info pertinent to your inquiry.
Oldest first.
782769/ .30 W.C.F. / carbine style butt pl / type 4 / not drilled for Peep / 6. none marked
nickel steel / has saddle ring (and leather strap even)
1,633,154 / mod. 94 .30 W.C.F. / not known (customized) / none (customized) / not drilled
6. not mkd / proof steel / no saddle ring / milled bbl band
2,386,436 / mod. 94 30-30 Win. / chkd stl / no tang mkg / drilled for peep / prf stl / no saddle ring
2,474,484 / mod. 94 30-30 Win. / chkd stl / drilled for peep / prf stl / no saddle ring
2,558,376 / mod. 94 30-30 Win. / chkd stl / drilled for peep / prf stl / no saddle ring
Happy Trails
Hello Hawkeye,
Thank you very much for participating in my survey... every single one of them suveyed helps to fill in the giant puzzle.
1. Per the PRSRB, serial 782769 is a June 1915 vintage SRC.
2. Serial 1663154 is an early 1950 vintage standard Carbine. It would be very interesting to know if it has a "49" marked barrel or a "50" marked barrel.
3. Serial 2386436 is a late 1959 production Carbine
4. Serial 2474484 is a mid year 1961 production Carbine.
5. Serial 2558376 is a latter half of the year 1962 production Carbine.
I do not have verifiable records for the later made Model 94s, so the information I have given to you is my best estimate.0 -
Sir,
Where would I look for the 49 or 50 mark for carbine # 2? Hope it isn't engraved over.
Here are a couple pics of gun in question. My fil did the engraving. It was his personal '94. He was self taught. There wasn't much he didn't do. Engraving, scrimshaw, knifemaking, stockbuilding, ivory carving. He was an amazing person.
0 -
Hello 53hawkeye,
It appears that your father in-law was a talented fellow.
The 2-digit date stamp is on the bottom of the barrel (under the forend stock & magazine tube). It looks like this...0 -
Posted - 05/24/2010 : 2:27:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kylew
Bert, First- Yes it has a type 7 tang mark. As far as the "War" guns go I have a couple from the WW1 years a couple from Korea and one from Vietnam years. Since WW2 generally is thought to have started on 8 Dec. 41 and ended on 9 Sept 45. I have kinda figured that the range would be from 1,305,000 to 1,345,000. Isn't 40,000 about the right number produced? And wasn't most of these made for the civilian guards- the one who watched our coasts for U boats and Japanese subs? I have read that these civilians were to shoot at any periscope spotted off the coast. I do know that the Japanese had big plans to launch chemical weapons on Washington DC and NYC. They had built several subs that carried 3 planes each the I-400 and I-401 were a couple of these. They were in route to the East coast when we bombed Japan. Kyle
Hello Kyle,
Given the time period you specify, the serial range you want to search for is 1303818 - 1343510 (December 1st, 1942 - September 28th, 1945).
Yes, 40,000 is very close to the number made during WW II, but very few of them were made for, or used by, civilian guard units. The only known WW II Model 94s that were specifically made for such use were the 2,500 that were ordered and delivered to the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers (P.C.M.R.) in the Candian Province of British Columbia. Those guns were all made and delivered in 1942 (serial number range 1317167 - 1342533).
During the WW II years, the bulk of the 40,000 guns were made in 1942 (29,882). That said, 1943 was the only year in which there was a Zero production number. In 1944, just (13) were made, all in November. Regular production resumed in June of 1945 at serial number 1343197, and ended with serial number 1352066 on December 29th, 1945
i was reading this post and i just wanted to know what the serial # would have been for the 13 made in 1944
and is it possible to find 1 of the 13 or are they all own by collectors
p.s
really find all this info very interesting keep it up Bert
thanks0
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