Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
Pinned
Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
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quote:Originally posted by blackgun
I just traded for a model 55.25-35 caliber.ser no.1075526.nickel steel.crescent butt plate.any info appreciated.thanks.
Hello blackgun,
Serial number 1075526 was manufactured in May of 1931, and as such, it should be a solid frame Model 55 versus the more common Take Down. The crescent butt plate is extremely unusual, but it could be factory original. I have a few questions for you;
1. Can you post (or send me) pictures of the butt stock & butt plate?
2. Does it have the type 6 upper tang stamp?
3. Can you remove the forend stock & magazine tube, and verify the 2-digit year stamp on the bottom of the barrel?0 -
It is type 6 upper tang stamp.Has the 31 on bbl.as well as 25 6 and mns.will get a pic today if my camera is returned.the tang screws are a little boogered up,so maybe a replacement stock?guy i got it from says his uncle gave it to him when he turned 16 and that his uncle received it from his great uncle who bought it new. thanks 0 -
quote:Originally posted by blackgun
It is type 6 upper tang stamp.Has the 31 on bbl.as well as 25 6 and mns.will get a pic today if my camera is returned.the tang screws are a little boogered up,so maybe a replacement stock?guy i got it from says his uncle gave it to him when he turned 16 and that his uncle received it from his great uncle who bought it new. thanks
The "31" is the date stamp, and the "25" is the caliber. "MNS" is Midvale Nickel Steel.
I suspected that the butt stock may not be original, which is why I asked for the pictures. The pictures will enable me to answer that question.0 -
here is one I have
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
1413024
2. The exact caliber stamp marking (see the pictures below for examples).
MODEL 94 -30W.C.F.-
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole (see the pictures below).
Flat checkered steel
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank (see the pictures below).
blank
5. Is the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
no.
6. U.S. martial or PCMR marked guns?
7. Nickel Steel or Proof Steel marked barrel?
proof steel
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
no
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
flat band
Gordon0 -
quote:Originally posted by k7grc
here is one I have
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
1413024
2. The exact caliber stamp marking (see the pictures below for examples).
MODEL 94 -30W.C.F.-
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole (see the pictures below).
Flat checkered steel
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank (see the pictures below).
blank
5. Is the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
no.
6. U.S. martial or PCMR marked guns?
7. Nickel Steel or Proof Steel marked barrel?
proof steel
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
no
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
flat band
Gordon
Hello Gordon,
Thank you very much for participating in my survey.
Your Model 94 flat-band Carbine was manufactured very early in the year 1947. The underside of the barrel could be marked "46" or "47". If you are willing, please remove the forend stock and look at the bottom of the barrel (see the pictures below)
0 -
bert: i was able to find a correct 1961 range 94 using the number range you gave me a couple months back (2,466,xxx). i don't have it or the exact number in front of me but will send all info for the survey. what is the correct butt plate of a 1961 vintage? thanks, mike 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mikey888f
bert: i was able to find a correct 1961 range 94 using the number range you gave me a couple months back (2,466,xxx). i don't have it or the exact number in front of me but will send all info for the survey. what is the correct butt plate of a 1961 vintage? thanks, mike
The correct butt plate for a 1961 vintage gun is the flat checkered steel type. A composite type with the Winchester logo could be special ordered, and is frequently found on the guns with special order (deluxe) stocks.0 -
bert: for those of us with limited mechanical skills, could you list a few simple steps for removing the forearm to get a the year number stamped on the barrel (without damage!)? mike thanks! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mikey888f
bert: for those of us with limited mechanical skills, could you list a few simple steps for removing the forearm to get a the year number stamped on the barrel (without damage!)? mike thanks!
For starters, your 1961 vintage Carbine will not have a year number stamped on the bottom of the barrel... Winchester stopped stamping them in early 1955.
As for removing the forend stock, the most important advice I can give anyone, is to use a properly fitting hollow-ground screwdriver. Never use the standard garden variety screwdriver on any gun, let alone an old Winchester.
The first step is to remove the screws from both of the barrel bands. If they are tight (or do not want to turn easily), do not force then. Use a drop or two of Kroil on each end of the screw, and let it soak overnight. Make sure that you do not leave any Kriol on the wood.
Before attempting to remove (move) either barrel band, lubricate the front section of the forend stock (forward of the barrel band) with some furniture oil (I like to stand the gun on its butt and drizzle a small amount of the furniture oil onto the front edge of the barrel band and let it sit for about 30-minutes. For the front barrel band, I use a small amount of Kroil.
After letting it sit for awhile, gently tap the forend stock barrel band forward towards the muzzle (a piece of wood dowel works well). Once the band starts to move, carefully slide it forward until it clears the stock. Pull the forend stock forward until it clears the receiver frame channel. Next, gently tap the front barrel band to the rear until it slides freely to the rear. Then, pull the magazine tube forward until it clears the recessed hole in the receiver frame.
At this point you really do not need to go any further to see the date, but at this point, it may be evident that there is some crud that needs cleaning. If so, carefully slide the magazine tube all the way forward until it clears the forend stock channel and the rear barrel band (both of which will then drop freely into your hand), then continue to pull forward until the mag tube clears the front barrel band. Slip the front band up and over the front sight, and you are now ready to inspect and clean as necessary. Note that the magazine tube as two grooves in it that correspond to where the barrel band screws pass through... you will need to realign those grooves when you reassemble it.0 -
Hi Bert,
I just inherited a model 94 from my father that I am trying to learn more about.
Here is the information, specific to your survey.
1 Serial # 1393442
2 Caliber marking- Model 94 -30 W.C.F.-
3 It has the checkered steel butt plate
4 the upper tang is blank
5 Not drilled or tapped for sights
6 ? the only markings I see are an oval with a W over a P, or P over W depending on interpretation. There is one of these on the barrel near the receiver, and one on the top of the receiver near the barrel. There is also a stamp on the bottom of the rifle right in front of the trigger that reads BZ
7 Barrel is marked Winchester Proof Steel
8 No saddle ring
9 N/A
10 N/A
11 It has the flat band
12 N/A
13 N/A
14 N/A
I am interested in any information about this rifle, specifically the WP, and the BZ stamps. The date of manufacture, etc.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Troy0 -
Hello Troy,
Your Flat-band Carbine was made sometime near the middle part of the year 1946.
The marking on the barrel and frame ring is Winchester's definitive proof mark, and it is a superposed "WP" (Winchester Proof).
The "BZ" on the bottom of the frame is an inspectors stamp (final fit, finish, and function).
Thank you for participating in my survey[:)]0 -
bert: could you please give me the serial # range for 1954? thanks, mike 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mikey888f
bert: could you please give me the serial # range for 1954? thanks, mike
Hello Mike,
I have that information posted in this topic post - http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=245213
2045001 - 2100500 (this is my best guess estimate at this time)0 -
Hey Bert,
This is great stuff, and your work is appreciated.
I have a mdl 94 I inherited from my dad; great shooter that still takes deer. Here's the info as best I can relate it:
1-Serial# 1619785
2-caliber stamp 32 W.S.
3-checkered butt plate
4-no upper tang markings
5-not drilled for peep sight
6-proof steel
7-no saddle ring
The DOM would be appreciated any further info needed by you?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Broke Hoss
Hey Bert,
This is great stuff, and your work is appreciated.
I have a mdl 94 I inherited from my dad; great shooter that still takes deer. Here's the info as best I can relate it:
1-Serial# 1619785
2-caliber stamp 32 W.S.
3-checkered butt plate
4-no upper tang markings
5-not drilled for peep sight
6-proof steel
7-no saddle ring
The DOM would be appreciated any further info needed by you?
Hello Broke Hoss,
Your Model 94 was manufactured mid year 1949, and it is a standard Carbine. It should have the long style forend stock. If you are so inclined, please verify the 2-digit year number stamp on the bottom of the barrel.
Thank you very much for participating in my survey[:)]0 -
Is this a Model 94?
Caliber:38-55
Serial #: 7223
Carbine Butt Plate
Winchester markings on barrel forward of rear sight
Markings on Tang:
Model 1894
-Winchester-
Pat.Aug.21 1894.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Zaphodb17
Is this a Model 94?
Caliber:38-55
Serial #: 7223
Carbine Butt Plate
Winchester markings on barrel forward of rear sight
Markings on Tang:
Model 1894
-Winchester-
Pat.Aug.21 1894.
Actually, it is a Model "1894", and it is a very early production one at that. The serial number indicates mid year 1895 as the manufacture date.0 -
Thanks Bert. I'm beginning to find these things out and I appreciate both your help and the info on this website. I'm trying to research a couple of rifles left by my father's passing. There's another Model 1894, ID'd in the 22nd edition of Gun Trader's Guide, as a Carbine, Cal. 38-55, serial# 424956, and a Model 1873 Rifle, Cal. 32-20, serial# 1928555B. Any clue what the "B" suffix was for? Also, I guess, the Model 1894, serial# 7223 in the previous post is a takedown rifle. My goal is to establish a value for these and sell them for my mom's benefit. Thanks again for the reply above. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Zaphodb17
Thanks Bert. I'm beginning to find these things out and I appreciate both your help and the info on this website. I'm trying to research a couple of rifles left by my father's passing. There's another Model 1894, ID'd in the 22nd edition of Gun Trader's Guide, as a Carbine, Cal. 38-55, serial# 424956, and a Model 1873 Rifle, Cal. 32-20, serial# 1928555B. Any clue what the "B" suffix was for? Also, I guess, the Model 1894, serial# 7223 in the previous post is a takedown rifle. My goal is to establish a value for these and sell them for my mom's benefit. Thanks again for the reply above.
You are quite welcome.
Being that the first Model 1894 (serial 7223) is a Take Down Sporting Rifle, it is very important to determine the exact configuration and the graded condition before a value estimate can be determined. In order to do that via the internet, I will need to see a series of clear well illuminated pictures. This rifle is potentially worth several thousand dollars.
Model 1894 serial number was manufactured mid November, 1905. If it is a Carbine, it should have a saddle ring on the left rear side of the receiver frame. It too is potentially valuable, but again, I will need to see pictures of the gun.
Model 1873 serial number 1928555 was manufactured sometime in the early 1880s. The "B" is not actually part of the serial number, and it indicates that it is a Third Model, and that it was manufactured with the latest changes (improvements) to the receiver/frame.0 -
My 94 is #2039529 milled barrel bandsw, factory drilled for peep, checked butt plate _32 WIN. SPL._ 0 -
Hi Bert,I was given a Mod.94 yesterday. Receiver is cracked so it is a parts gun I guess. Ser.# 1839560--- blank tang---marked 30-30 win---no receiver sight holes---no marks on receiver by ser. #---check butt---milled band--- short forearm---- receiver ring is cracked on the right side about in line with the edge of the bolt. Hope this helps,Swanie 0 -
quote:Originally posted by wilmamae
Hi Bert,I was given a Mod.94 yesterday. Receiver is cracked so it is a parts gun I guess. Ser.# 1839560--- blank tang---marked 30-30 win---no receiver sight holes---no marks on receiver by ser. #---check butt---milled band--- short forearm---- receiver ring is cracked on the right side about in line with the edge of the bolt. Hope this helps,Swanie
Hello and thank you... yes, every single serial number helps[:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by elglide
My 94 is #2039529 milled barrel bandsw, factory drilled for peep, checked butt plate _32 WIN. SPL._
Thank you very much for sharing the information[:)]0 -
Hi Bert, I have a 32-40 Winchester MODEL 1894, serial #234428 2. Says simply 32-40 on top of the barrel. 3. It has a carbine butt. 4. reads:
MODEL 1894
--WINCHESTER--
TRADEMARK
This correlates to the second Style but the serial # corresponds to your third style. 5. No. 6.huh... 7.? 8. no.
The magazine tube extends 4" beyond the grip. 26" round barrel, That's about it. Hope this is helpful. Ted0 -
quote:Originally posted by unclecharlie
Hi Bert, I have a 32-40 Winchester MODEL 1894, serial #234428 2. Says simply 32-40 on top of the barrel. 3. It has a carbine butt. 4. reads:
MODEL 1894
--WINCHESTER--
TRADEMARK
This correlates to the second Style but the serial # corresponds to your third style. 5. No. 6.huh... 7.? 8. no.
The magazine tube extends 4" beyond the grip. 26" round barrel, That's about it. Hope this is helpful. Ted
Hello Ted, and thank you for posting the information on your Model 1894.
I revised my original post with updated information (from my survey) concerning the serial number ranges for the various types of upper tang stamps. Please review it again.
Your Model 1894 is not in the exact serial range that I am most interested in (which is why the questions I posted are not making much sense in regards to your gun). The questions I have asked are specifically geared towards those Model 94s that are in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 range.0 -
Hi Bert, I found one more for sale here. Mod 94 Ser # 1216355.Marked 30WCF. Tang drilled and marked with type 7 script. No side holes in receiver. W mark on receiver bottom by ser #.Milled band. Long fore arm. Good luck, Swanie 0 -
quote:Originally posted by wilmamae
Hi Bert, I found one more for sale here. Mod 94 Ser # 1216355.Marked 30WCF. Tang drilled and marked with type 7 script. No side holes in receiver. W mark on receiver bottom by ser #.Milled band. Long fore arm. Good luck, Swanie
Thanks for the information[:)]0 -
Bert, I have two 94's
1. ser #1618059, 20" carbine, upper tang no markings only one large screw at end of tang, no mount holes in receiver for site, barrel marking MODEL 94-32 W.S.- winchester proof steel, rounded milled bands, full length mag, flat checkered steel butt plate, forearm is 9 3/16" long.
2. (out of range just fyi) 26" rifle ser#485345, oct barrel, full length mag, barrel mark ---nickel steel barrel--- especially for smokeless powder, cal 32 W.S. upper tang marks model 1894 -WINCHESTER-
trade mark reg in us pat off, two screw holes one for site, no extra holes in receiver, marbles ramp rear site, forearm 10 3/8" long with end cap.
3. FYI also have a marlin 336a in same cal.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kylew
Bert, I have two 94's
1. ser #1618059, 20" carbine, upper tang no markings only one large screw at end of tang, no mount holes in receiver for site, barrel marking MODEL 94-32 W.S.- winchester proof steel, rounded milled bands, full length mag, flat checkered steel butt plate, forearm is 9 3/16" long.
2. (out of range just fyi) 26" rifle ser#485345, oct barrel, full length mag, barrel mark ---nickel steel barrel--- especially for smokeless powder, cal 32 W.S. upper tang marks model 1894 -WINCHESTER-
trade mark reg in us pat off, two screw holes one for site, no extra holes in receiver, marbles ramp rear site, forearm 10 3/8" long with end cap.
3. FYI also have a marlin 336a in same cal.
Hello Kyle,
Thanks for sharing the information on your Winchesters[:)].
Serial 1618059 was manufactured mid year 1949, and it appears to be a standard production Carbine.
Serial 485345 was manufactured in February of the year 1911, and it appears to be a standard Sporting Rifle.
Of the two, the older Sporting Rifle is the more valuable.0 -
survey input ....
mdl 94 s/n: 1571465
caliber marking: 30 W.C.F.
butt plate: flat checkered steel
tang marking: blank
factory drilled for peep sight: no
US martial or PCMR: unknown--how to tell?
Proof steel marking: yes
saddle ring: no
barrel band: milled0
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