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Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update

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  • pruss
    Hi Bert, I'm new here and not sure if your survey is still active but here goes.
    Model 94-32 WIN.-SPL. S/N 2339316 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.

    Model-94-30-30 WIN- S/N 2308582 Standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.

    Model-94-30-30- WIN S/N 2538455 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by pruss
    Hi Bert, I'm new here and not sure if your survey is still active but here goes.
    Model 94-32 WIN.-SPL. S/N 2339316 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.

    Model-94-30-30 WIN- S/N 2308582 Standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.

    Model-94-30-30- WIN S/N 2538455 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.


    Hello,

    Yes, my survey is still ongoing (I suspect that I will continue it for quite some time). I have sent all of my data to Robert Renneberg for the revised edition to his reference book, but I am still collecting data to refine what I already know and have.

    1. Serial 2308582 is a late 1958 production gun.

    2. Serial 2339316 is an early 1959 production gun.

    3. Serial 2538455 is an early 1962 production gun.

    Thank you very much for participating in the survey[^]
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  • AlanP
    Bert,

    Don't know if this helps, but I have a 94 with the "W" marked aft of the serial number. SN 124895X. Is that a 1941 DOM?
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by AlanP
    Bert,

    Don't know if this helps, but I have a 94 with the "W" marked aft of the serial number. SN 124895X. Is that a 1941 DOM?


    Hello Alan,

    It was manufactured in late October of 1940. If you do not mind, please answer the following;

    1. Caliber
    2. Butt plate type (it should be the serrated style)
    3. The complete serial number

    If you prefer, you can email the information to me at Win1885@msn.com
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  • AlanP
    Bert,

    Thank you, sir.

    Caliber is 30 wcf. Yes, the buttplate is serrated. 1248953

    How many different styles of elevators for the rear sight were there, and are there dates for which styles were used when? I have a feeling the elevator on mine is a newer replacement.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by AlanP
    Bert,

    Thank you, sir.

    Caliber is 30 wcf. Yes, the buttplate is serrated. 1248953

    How many different styles of elevators for the rear sight were there, and are there dates for which styles were used when? I have a feeling the elevator on mine is a newer replacement.


    Hello Alan,

    You are quite welcome, and thank you for the added information.

    During the timeframe when your Carbine was made, Winchester used several different types of rear sights, each with its own specific elevator. Without knowing which type of rear sight you have, I can not deteremine which elevator your Carbine should have. Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight and the elevator?
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  • AlanP
    PICT1363.jpg

    Does this angle show what you need?



    PICT1369.jpg
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  • Bert H.
    Hello Alan,

    Close, but the lighting is not so good. If possible, please take the exact same picture shots outdoors in natural lighting (indirect sunlight).
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  • AlanP
    Will these work?

    PICT1370.jpg
    PICT1371.jpg
    PICT1372.jpg
    PICT1373.jpg
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  • Bert H.
    Hello Alan,

    The last set of pictures were perfect, and you do indeed have the correct rear sight and elevator. It appears to be a very nice condition pre-war carbine[^]
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  • AlanP
    Thank you, sir.

    In looking at different sight elevators, (and keeping the very limited scope of my knowledge in mind) it seems like there is the "1C" sight elevator, and the "3C" sight elevator. Were there different versions of each, and were both types used all through production? Or were the 1C elevators an old version, while the 3Cs were used on newer manufactures? In other words, are there correct elevators for DOM?
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by AlanP
    Thank you, sir.

    In looking at different sight elevators, (and keeping the very limited scope of my knowledge in mind) it seems like there is the "1C" sight elevator, and the "3C" sight elevator. Were there different versions of each, and were both types used all through production? Or were the 1C elevators an old version, while the 3Cs were used on newer manufactures? In other words, are there correct elevators for DOM?


    I can not get into any great detail at this time (I loaned all of my old catalogs/reference material to a friend of mine in another state), and I need to refer to it to fully answer your question.

    What I can tell you, is that Winchester used the 1B/1C series sight elevators on all of the early Model 1894s with the 24 series rear sights, and later on the Carbines with the rear sight dovetail slot that was cut approximately 5-inches from the frame ring. The 3C elevator was used on the 26 series sights, and when the rear sight dovetail cut was closer to the frame ring.

    There are no hard set rules concering what type of rear sight was used based on DOMs. Winchester would install just about any type of sight a customer wanted, and they installed several variations on their own volition.
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  • VirgilCaine
    pix322389562.jpg
    pix322390125-1.jpg
    pix322390031.jpg
    pix322390250.jpg
    pix322390859.jpg
    pix322391218.jpg
    pix322391390.jpg
    pix322391687.jpg
    pix322391609.jpg
    pix322391796.jpg
    pix322391937.jpg

    A 64, made in 53 I think.
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  • Bert H.
    Hello Virgil,

    Very nice Model 64 Deer Rifle[^]. Based on my research, it is a very late 1952 production gun. If you get the urge to verify it, remove the forend stock and the magazine tube, and look for the 2-digit year stamped on the bottom of the barrel right next to where it screws into the receiver frame... my bet is that it has "52" stamped on it.

    Thank you very much for posting the great pictures of it[^].
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  • chw
    i have win model 94 serial # 1364701 30wcf. round barrel band one looks like an L checked flat steel butt plate.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by chw
    i have win model 94 serial # 1364701 30wcf. round barrel band one looks like an L checked flat steel butt plate.


    Your Model 94 Sporting Carbine was manufactured in the first half of the year 1946 (April/May). Is the upper tang marked?
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  • chw
    the tang is not marked. the hammer is a checkered panel. the rear sight adjustment has the serrated adjustment handle at the rear of the sight cw
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by chw
    the tang is not marked. the hammer is a checkered panel. the rear sight adjustment has the serrated adjustment handle at the rear of the sight cw


    Thank you for the added information[:)]
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  • Carla
    Hello, Bert,

    I'm checking in with the only two of my rifles which are within your survey parameters.

    the first is a model 94 carbine, S/N 1303197.

    The barrel marking is "Winchester Proof Steel" and "30 W.C.F."

    It has the type 7 tang marking. The tang does have the tapped/plugged hole for tang sight.

    It has the milled band, and serrated shotgun type butt-plate.

    The first "1" character in the S/N appears to be a common or standard type numeral, with crossbar at the bottom of the vertical portion, and down-slanted angular marking to the left at the top, and no "W" or other letter mark below the S/N.

    The hammer spur has small square checkered area, not the later cross-serrated type.

    The left side of the receiver does not have tapped holes for Lyman/Redfield type sight.

    This carbine has the same type of sight elevator pictured earlier in this thread with carbine #16479XX. The centre of the rear sight dovetail in the barrel is 3.050 from the forward face of the receiver. (the distance from the receiver face reads 2.862 to the after corner of the sight dovetail, as read with a dial caliper. Adding .188, as half of a standard 3/8" dovetail, gives the 3.050 dimension)

    I have owned this carbine for approx twenty years. It was in "nearly as new" condition when I got it, with no evidence of repair or alteration, so I believe it to be "as original". The screws appear to have never been turned, or, if ever turned, turned very carefully with a correctly fitting screw driver.

    The second is a Model 64 "Deer", S/N 1634720, 24" barrel, with what appears to be the original 1" leather sling, with Q/D swivels.

    The barrel marking is "Winchester Proof Steel" and "30 W. C. F."

    The top tang is unmarked, and does not have tapped hole for tang sight.

    The hammer spur is the usual post-war cross-serrated type.

    The receiver has the tapped holes for Lyman/Redfield type receiver sight. It does not have the bolt cut for a Winchester bolt sight.

    The butt-plate is the checkered/pointed-top type, same as a Model 70.

    I would note that the "font" or "style" of the numerals in the S/N is of a later, less "serifed" or "more simple" character than the S/N numerals on the earlier carbine.

    It would be an item of minor interest to find the S/N range at which the numeral character "font" shapes were changed, and whether there was an "over-lap" indicating character stamp changes in the different stamping machines/fixtures over some length of time.

    I'm the second owner of this rifle, which was carefully preserved in "as new" condition by the original purchaser, until he passed away, and I purchased the rifle from his family.

    I got two boxes of 30-30 rounds with the rifle, of which ten had been fired. The boxes/rounds appeared to be of 1950-ish vintage. It may....and I'd stress *may*... be that this rifle has fired only ten rounds in its life, going by the complete lack of wear marks on the moving parts.

    The deceased owner was known to have used a Model 70 for hunting, for many years, so its possible that he may have purchased the M64, carried it hunting for one season, decided he preferred a bolt rifle, and simply stored the M64 away in the closet where the family found it. We'll never know, of course.

    I now feel rather a fool for having bought this one, as I can't bring myself to actually use it, for fear of accidental scratches, or whatever, to one this well preserved.

    Bert, may I ask a minor favour of you?

    Recently, I found a 94 for sale locally, and a friend of mine purchased it. This one is in the 1.8 million S/N range, I didn't note the number. It has the usual post-war characteristics, "30-30" barrel marking, serrated hammer, but not drilled/tapped for receiver sight, so presumably 1951-52 approximate vintage.

    This carbine is in reasonably good condition, showing some use, and is original except for the butt-plate being missing. A previous owner had fitted a "brand X' recoil pad, presumably to lengthen the pull to his preference, as the stock was not cut. Fortunately, he drilled the pad for the original screw locations instead of drilling into the stock, so it will be a simple matter to replace the butt-plate, if one can be found.

    Could you recommend any source where I might be able to find a correct original checkered butt-plate for a 94? If so, please e-mail me, carla.satra@earthlink.net
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  • Bert H.
    Hello Carla,

    Your Model 94 Carbine is an October 1941 vintage Winchester. All of the features you describe are exactly as they should be for a late pre-war Carbine.

    Your Model 64 Deer Rifle is a late 1949 vintage Winchester. In the condition you describe, it could easily be a $2K+ collector grade gun.

    A model 94 Carbine in the 1.8 million serial range has the very common flat checkered steel butt plate. Try Numrich (e-gunparts)

    Thanks for adding the information on your Winchesters to this post and my survey. If you have any additional questions, please let me know.
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  • Carla
    Hello again, Bert,

    Firstly, just for the record, I'm a "Carla"....my father and grandfather were both "Carl", so.....well, you get the idea.... : )

    I'd already tried Numrich, and a couple other internet sites of firms advertising parts for older Winchesters, for the early '50's M94 butt-plate.....no joy..... : (

    Could you recommend any other possible source?

    Thank you for the date of mfg information on my Winchesters.

    The little M94 has been an especial "pet" for many years now. I serve as rangemaster, part-timey, of a couple of ranges here in the S. F. bay area, and teach basic firearms safety/proficiency for "newbies".

    The M94 has seen somewhere around 3 to 4 thousand rounds (I really should have kept some count) of "familiarisation fire" for new shooters, and has performed reliably with only ordinary cleaning/oiling maintenence.

    With hand loads developed for it, somewhat less powerful than factory ammunition, it has done just under 1 moa 5 shot groups at 100 yards. (but I'll admit that was over sand-bags, on a windless day, and with the barrel allowed to cool between shots.)

    cheers

    Carla

    (NRA life, Secretary of the Santa Clara Valley Rifle Club)
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  • Bert H.
    Hello Carla (and I apologize for the mistake on the last reply to you[:I]).

    Art Pirkle has a lot of Winchester lever-action parts, and he usually has a table at the November Big Reno show (which is just a hop & a skip for you). Please consider attending the November show, as it is also the WACA sponsored show.
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  • spurrat
    Hi Bert, this is a very interesting post.

    My Winchester is 1548853
    Stamped 94-32W.S.-
    Checkered steel buttplate
    No upper tang marking
    Not drilled or tapped
    Standard carbine
    Milled band

    Hope this info is of use.

    Jason
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by spurrat
    Hi Bert, this is a very interesting post.

    My Winchester is 1548853
    Stamped 94-32W.S.-
    Checkered steel buttplate
    No upper tang marking
    Not drilled or tapped
    Standard carbine
    Milled band

    Hope this info is of use.

    Jason


    Hello Jason,

    Yes it is, and thank you for participating in this survey. Your Carbine was manufactured in the latter part of the year 1948.
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  • AFB
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    Hello all.

    I am attempting to research all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please either post your information here, or send it directly to me at Win1885@msn.com.

    Edit: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...

    1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
    2. The exact caliber stamp marking (see the pictures below for examples).
    3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole (see the pictures below).
    4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank (see the pictures below).
    5. Is the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
    6. U.S. martial or PCMR marked guns?
    7. Nickel Steel or Proof Steel marked barrel?
    8. Does it have a saddle ring?
    9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
    10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,310,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
    11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
    12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
    13. If a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
    14. If a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?

    More specifically, I am trying to determine the approximate serial number transition point for...

    (1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,

    Model94-30W.C.F.-1385707.jpg
    Model94--30-30WIN.--1948763.jpg

    (2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."

    Model94-32W.S.-1462074.jpg
    Model94-32WIN.SPL.-.jpg

    (3) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.

    Carbine butt plate used only on the Model 94...
    Buttplate-Carbine1015072-2.jpg

    Serrated steel butt plate used on both the Model 94 and 55...
    Buttplate-Serratedsteel.jpg

    Checkered steel butt plate used only on the Model 94...
    Buttplate-Checkeredsteel.jpg

    Checkered steel with widows peak butt plate used almost exclusively on the Model 64... (this type of butt plate was first introduced for the Model 1887 and 1897 shotguns)
    Buttplate-M702186021.jpg

    (4) Upper Tang roll stamp types.

    Type 5
    Type5tangstamp1015072.jpg

    Type 6
    Type6tangstamp1082497.jpg

    Type 7
    Type7tangstamp1255031.jpg

    (5) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).

    Drilledtappedreceiver1677530.jpg

    (6) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band

    Milled Band...
    Milledband1156742-1.jpg
    Milledband1156742-2.jpg
    Milledband1156742-3.jpg

    Flat-Band...
    FlatBand1465867.jpg
    FlatBand1465867-1.jpg

    (7) The exact Serial range for the "W" stamped guns...

    Serial1226499W.JPG

    (8) The exact Serial range for the "L" stamped guns...

    Serial1302674.jpg


    And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.

    If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.

    Thanks in advance to all who respond & participate[:)].

    Bert H.
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  • AFB
    Hello Bert, Here are the stats on my Mod.94.
    1. Ser.# 1468136
    2. Model 94-32 W.S.-
    3. Flat checkered steel buttplate
    4. No upper tang markings.
    5. Not drilled or tapped.
    6. No U.S. martial or PCMR marks.
    7. Proof steel marked barrel.
    8. No saddle ring. [Eastern carbine?]
    11.Flat-band barrel band.

    I have a question about my Mod.94. When it was shipped did it have a front-sight shroud or was that an extra? Also, what was the purpose of switching to the flat-band barrel band? I heard it was a cost cutting measure due to WW2. Thanks.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by AFB
    Hello Bert, Here are the stats on my Mod.94.
    1. Ser.# 1468136
    2. Model 94-32 W.S.-
    3. Flat checkered steel buttplate
    4. No upper tang markings.
    5. Not drilled or tapped.
    6. No U.S. martial or PCMR marks.
    7. Proof steel marked barrel.
    8. No saddle ring. [Eastern carbine?]
    11.Flat-band barrel band.

    I have a question about my Mod.94. When it was shipped did it have a front-sight shroud or was that an extra? Also, what was the purpose of switching to the flat-band barrel band? I heard it was a cost cutting measure due to WW2. Thanks.


    Yes, it was shipped with a front sight shroud.

    The switch to the flat-band occurred after WW II, and was therefore not a cost cutting measure related to the war. Why exactly the change was made is not known, but Winchester continually made changes to nearly all of their various models in an effort to cut costs, and to simplify and speed up the production process.

    Edit: Your Model 94 is a standard "Sporting Carbine" versus an "Eastern Carbine". Eastern Carbines were made prior to the year 1932.
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  • AFB
    Bert, I forgot to ask if you knew the DOM of my Mod.94. Ser.#1468136.
    I also own another Mod.94# 4371936 and would be interested to know the DOM. Thanks
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by AFB
    Bert, I forgot to ask if you knew the DOM of my Mod.94. Ser.#1468136.
    I also own another Mod.94# 4371936 and would be interested to know the DOM. Thanks


    I forgot to add it to my first reply (I usually provide that information). Serial 1468136 was manufactured in the late months of 1947. If you remove the forend stock and magzine tube, you will find a "47" stamped on the bottom of the barrel.

    I do not have specific information for the post-1963 production Model 94s, but my guess is that serial 4371936 is a mid 1970s production gun.
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  • blackgun
    I just traded for a model 55.25-35 caliber.ser no.1075526.nickel steel.crescent butt plate.any info appreciated.thanks.
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