Winchester factory engraving and bbl. inscriptions
Thought I would post a common misconception regarding Winchester factory engraving. Alot of people seem to be under the impression that a gun engraved in the factory always had the bbl. inscriptions rolled on in such a manner as to leave room for the scrollwork. This was true for guns that were put together with the intention of being engraved from the start. However that is not always the case with factory engraved guns. Many guns that were done in the factory were guns that were sent in to be upgraded where the bbl. inscription was too near the reciever to allow for the complete scrollwork. In a case like this the inscription was not struck off and rerolled the scrollwork was engraved in the manner where it came up to the lettering and continued on the other side. Many people seem to think that this was only done on guns by outside engravers but that is not always the case. Many people sent in guns to be upgraded and the Custom Shop was happy to oblige.
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Pauline, is this factory engraving? 
Comments?0 -
Sorry, not done by anyone in the factory. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p.muerrle
Sorry, not done by anyone in the factory.
Pauline, how would you characterize the quality of the engraving?0 -
The scrollwork and gold aren't to bad but the game scene, especially the background is kind of simplistic. There is a lack of grass or bushes which throws the whole thing off balance considering how elaborate the scrollwork is. 0 -
First Thank You for sharing your vast knowledge of these great firearms.
I picked up a 1981 Winchester Model 94 with some great looking engraving on it.
I was "told" it was done by one of the Winchester engravers up in Montana over the winter for something to do.
The name provided was Nevel, Neble, Noble or something to that effect.
Anyway, Thanks for any information you're able to provide.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 12thcav
First Thank You for sharing your vast knowledge of these great firearms.
I picked up a 1981 Winchester Model 94 with some great looking engraving on it.
I was "told" it was done by one of the Winchester engravers up in Montana over the winter for something to do.
The name provided was Nevel, Neble, Noble or something to that effect.
Anyway, Thanks for any information you're able to provide.
Hey, Murph..Welcome to the forums! Can you get the photos to appear larger? They're kinda small for a positive look-see. Thanks, Joe0 -
Murph,
Here you go:0 -
You guys are great.
Thanks for the help, first post.0 -
None of the Winchester factory engravers lived in Montana. In 1981 Nick Kusmit, Joe Crowley and myself were all working in the Custom Shop. The only former engraver, Jasper Salerno, that was still doing work on the outside (which was not factory contracted) was retired at this point and he was living in Ct. That engraving was not done by anyone in the factory. 0 -
Pauline,
I'm a novice in the world of engraving.
Could you share some insight as to the style and quality of this work?
Thanks for your knowledgeable insight.
Murph0 -
The design is laid out nicely but alot of the scrolls have flat spots. What I mean is, look at the two bigger scrolls towards the front of the receiver. In stead of having a line that is a round spiral, it starts out round and then has several flat spots in it. 0 -
I just joined on to do a little research and I found this topic. It just so happens that the gun you all refference to is mine. http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=155874701
FYI, Cabellas offered just below what I am asking to put this rifle in their museum. was not interested at the time. This gun was sent to CODY and due to the papers being destroyed they could not letter the gun. 1 out of every so many of these were sent to the custom shop and due to that number is where CODY came up with 12 to 14 ever had the factory engraving. No fake here. No rebluing, no sanding, all original. It is amazing how you can tell so much from a photograph. As you can see from my other auctions, I only deal in the best Winchesters I can get my hands on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jkeen579
I just joined on to do a little research and I found this topic. It just so happens that the gun you all refference to is mine. http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=155874701
FYI, Cabellas offered just below what I am asking to put this rifle in their museum. was not interested at the time. This gun was sent to CODY and due to the papers being destroyed they could not letter the gun. 1 out of every so many of these were sent to the custom shop and due to that number is where CODY came up with 12 to 14 ever had the factory engraving. No fake here. No rebluing, no sanding, all original. It is amazing how you can tell so much from a photograph. As you can see from my other auctions, I only deal in the best Winchesters I can get my hands on.
When was it "sent" to Cody, and who specifically gave you your information concerning how many were engraved? As a heads up, I work as a volunteer in the Research Office for several weeks each each year, and I am very well acquainted with all of the regular staff, and more importantly, what the policies are on providing information for any firearm for which no factory ledger data exists.
As for Pauline's comments about the engraving on your Model 1892... she is the person who would know if it is original work or not, as she was one of the last Winchester engravers[:0]. In comparison to her concerning this topic, I am almost a rookie, and even I can tell with just a simple glance that the engraving is not factory work.0 -
No rebluing or sanding? How come the scrollwork on the bbls. looks like it is almost worn right off? If this gun had been factory engraved it would have been done by one of the Ulrichs. The quality of the scrollwork on the bbl. and the receiver is completely inferior to anything they would have done. 0 -
It has been years sent cody or cabellas looked at this. The fact that came out of all of that is that it is all original. Also, there are many things that are overlooked when evaluating guns like this. True, it is an 1892 Winchester. Then you put the other facts together about the pistol grip stock, the caliber, and the fact that it was engraved between 1917 and 1918 and this is where you can see how rare this gun is, in this configuration. I have only seen one other in this configuration and the serial numbers were approx. 20,000 apart. The engraving was comparitively the same all of the way down to the ram's details. It is hard to appreciate the detail of this gun until you physically look at it. Trust me, this gun has been examined by some of the best Winchester people out there and they love this gun. This gun follows me to every gun show I go to, from OK to PA, and they all have to examine it. I don't know who the engraver was that did this but, like I say, it was done in 1917 or 1918. 0 -
I don't care who these supposed experts were. None of the Winchester factory engravers worked on this gun. 0 -
Not to offend and not to get in an online argument, but I believe you have met your match on this one. You tell me what good photographs you would need and in what area and I'll get the best pics I can. Like I said before, this is confirmed an original. Just tell me what pics might help you decide. 0 -
I can see all I need to from your photos but for the benefit of others post clear, close up pix of each side of receiver and also scrolls on bbl. Everyone is still waiting to hear who the "experts" were that confirmed this. Make sure to post that also. 0 -
I am in complete agreement with Pauline... that gun most definitely was not factory engraved, and I am not exactly "chopped liver" as it applies to my personal knowledge of Winchester firearms. Additionally, I am personally acquainted with most of the "Winchester experts" still living. 0 -
For my benfit, I hope to prove you wrong. On the other hand, if I am wrong, I will deffinately admit. I will post some better pics anyway but the contacts may take a while. I will inform you if I am right or wrong. I have to admit, it aint looking good for me if you all are as good as you say. 0 -
OK. Now comes the time when I have to suck up and come clean. First, I speak in "FIRST PERSON" about these guns because it is easier for me to do so than to explain some of the details. I actually sell these Winchesters, and just a few other of these guns, for a really good friend of mine. I have never had any reason to dispute his word on anything until now. I do go to the gun shows with him and I ask a lot of questions before listing a gun for him. When I confronted him about this gun yesterday, all he would say is "I have probably owned more engraved guns than she has seen. I wouldn't take her word for it no matter what". When I explained who "SHE" is, he still never backed down. "It doesn't matter because I know what I have is factory. I have seen friends drop 100,000.00 dollars on Winchesters and these are the guys that I have look at my guns". I asked about the "CODY" thing, which he told me is who said it was original, he would just say that because of the year this was built, they would not letter the gun because the papers were distroyed. I hope that, at least, is true. Second, I have the gun listed in my name on GB and now I am worried that if he makes a deal with someone on here that sees it, it will be sold in my name. I don't want anyone coming to me, after the fact, and say that I falsely represented the gun to sell it. So, in that respect, I will be changing the discription of the gun. I tried to convince him to let me take some more pictures and all he would say is that he was not interested in anything "SHE" had to say. I explained who Pauline Muerrle is, but to no evail. I would be crazy to dispute the word of a factory engraver and I will not. I do, although, have this thing in the back of my mind that says this still may be factory. But that piece of my mind is not worth someone sending their lawyer to me wanting their money back. I wish he would let me find out for a "fact-of-the-matter", but it doesn't look like it is going to happen. I am now wandering why Cabellas would offer that kind of money, in excess of 30,000.00, for this gun. I would think, if this did happen, their museum experts would be able to tell. There again, I don't know. So there you have it. The whole truth. All I know and nothing left out. Now I will wait for the chastising to commence. This friend of mine is actually a very good guy and I do feel that he really believes that this is a factory engraved gun. Now I will wait for your comments. Please don't be too hard on me. I work with a bunch of grease monkeys and I don't want them to see me cry when I catch the flack I think I am going to get. 0 -
O.K. here it goes. To put it bluntly, this gun was put together with the intent to deceive.Your friend is laughable. I have seen this scenario to many times to count over the last many years I have been I.D.ing Winchester factory engraving for folks. It works this way: A gun shows up that has phony engraving. The owner swears this is not the case either by some hokey story about a widow or grandfather owning it, or they tell you that it was confirmed by experts. When you confront them directly they suddenly can't recall if this is 100% true because they acquired it quite some time ago. Suddenly they can't remember the names of the experts and take offense to anyone inspecting the gun further. They question other's credentials, try to come up with a few more excuses and then basically fade away with their tail between their legs. I personally would love to know what their experts credentials are in this matter. I worked in Winchester as an engraver. I had to learn all the former engravers styles from scrollwork all the way down to how each engraver did animals eyes. This was required of all engravers in case they had to touch up a gun sent in for restoration. Just looking at a bunch of supposed factory engraved guns does not make anyone close to being any kind of expert. As far as questioning the experts ability on this forum, that probably was a big mistake for two reasons. First, the people on the "ask the experts" section are there for a reason. Everyone has their own area of expertise. People such as Bert have been known in their fields for many years and did not just pop up out of nowhere. Second, I hope your friend realizes by insisting his fake is real but not being able to back this up or to fool anyone here, all he accomplished was to bring more attention to the fact that it is a phony. Is he aware of how many people visit this sight? 0 -
No chastising will be forth coming from me, but I will tender this comment... your "friend" is an apparent blowhard, and if nothing else, he is being deceitful to both you and to himself. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by jkeen579
It has been years sent cody or cabellas looked at this. The fact that came out of all of that is that it is all original. Also, there are many things that are overlooked when evaluating guns like this. True, it is an 1892 Winchester. Then you put the other facts together about the pistol grip stock, the caliber, and the fact that it was engraved between 1917 and 1918 and this is where you can see how rare this gun is, in this configuration. I have only seen one other in this configuration and the serial numbers were approx. 20,000 apart. The engraving was comparitively the same all of the way down to the ram's details. It is hard to appreciate the detail of this gun until you physically look at it. Trust me, this gun has been examined by some of the best Winchester people out there and they love this gun. This gun follows me to every gun show I go to, from OK to PA, and they all have to examine it. I don't know who the engraver was that did this but, like I say, it was done in 1917 or 1918.
When ever someone says to me "trust me" "Believe me" or "honest to God" they are usually full of crap. You seem like an upstanding guy, but the company of experts that you keep has alot to be desired. If you want to learn, stick around here and read.[;)]0 -
Hi Pauline, it's been a while since we talked, you probably don't remember me lol....
My views on this matter is the owner of the gun is shaking in his boots, realizing that a factory expert turned down his gun to be factory original.He must have paid a mint for it, and wants his money back,well we all must live and learn,I have been burnt before lol,although not to that degree I'm sure....
Well I just got back on the forums,have'nt been here for a while when I saw your name,and just had to say hi............[:)]
Michael Guzzetti Gunbuff
BTW,to all of you,Pauline is an excellent engraver,she did a remarkable job on the winchesters I sent to her to engrave.
Pauline is the very last original winchester engraver.............0 -
Actually, he bought the gun years ago for 6800.00. I am not sure what it is actually worth and of course it is no sweat off my back. He is convinced, even after I tried to talk to him about it, that this is a factory engraved gun. I'll leave that decision making up to him and the buyer. If the buyer pays that kind of money and does not have some sort of authenticity papers, I am like you guys, I think he may be foolish. 0 -
Your "friend" is a fool, and he really got burned big time when he paid $6800 for it.
The reality is this... on a good day and in today's market, it is worth less than 25% of what he paid for it. Trying to peddle it for the ridiculously high price he has on it is both extremely greedy and foolish, and it borders on being criminal.
As has been stated in previous posts, there are a lot of Winchester collectors who tune in to this forum on a daily basis, and they are fully aware that at least two different "experts" have positively identified that gun as a fake.0 -
Hi Pauline,
What do you think of this engraving?
Thanks in advance,
Ed
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Now that is nice engraving! I love the way the pattern is laid out. I like engraving that tells a story. The use of the gold to me is just enough to set the rest of the pattern off. 0 -
Thanks Pauline. It is done by AA White. From what I've been able to find out it was done somewhere betweeen 1957-1966 and is an exact copy of a Kornbrath engraved 1873 from about 1932-33 for Winchester exhibitions and such. Wilsons book of Winchester Engravings First Edition page 313 shows the Kornbrath rifle. I'm told AA White didn't usually copy other engravers work but Kornbrath was his favorite.
I would sure like to find out more information! The woodwork is also nothing short of magnificent.
Have a good day,
Ed0
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