Winchester factory engraving and bbl. inscriptions
Thought I would post a common misconception regarding Winchester factory engraving. Alot of people seem to be under the impression that a gun engraved in the factory always had the bbl. inscriptions rolled on in such a manner as to leave room for the scrollwork. This was true for guns that were put together with the intention of being engraved from the start. However that is not always the case with factory engraved guns. Many guns that were done in the factory were guns that were sent in to be upgraded where the bbl. inscription was too near the reciever to allow for the complete scrollwork. In a case like this the inscription was not struck off and rerolled the scrollwork was engraved in the manner where it came up to the lettering and continued on the other side. Many people seem to think that this was only done on guns by outside engravers but that is not always the case. Many people sent in guns to be upgraded and the Custom Shop was happy to oblige.
0
-
Thank you, Pauline. Please post more of these very interesting tidbits as you have time! [:)] 0 -
Thanks again for your time. to give us this very useful information. Karl 0 -
Pauline,
Thank you for sharing your information with us. As an inspiring collector of Winchester arms, it is great to know that some people like you and Bert are looking out for us.
Only My Best,
Tim0 -
The Custom Shop kept records of any gun that passed through there for up grade, repair, or whatever. 0 -
Wonderful stuff, so Cartod's next questions are, do those records still exist, Are they accessable and will they be preserved? Thanks! 0 -
QUESTION FOR P. MUERRLE:
CAN YOU, OR IS THERE ANYONE YOU KNOW OF WHO WOULD BE ABLE TO AUTHENTCATE THE ENGRAVINGS OF EITHER OF THE KUSMITS?0 -
I can authenticate any of the factory engravers. We had to learn all of their styles in case we had to duplicate engraving on a refinished previously engraved gun. I especially would know the Kusmits engraving as I worked under Nick when I started at Winchester and was also a personal friend of John who was already retired at the time I started my employment. Beware however as most of the guns that I have looked at are not always what they are represented as. 0 -
Like this? [:)] 
0 -
You got it. 0 -
Link to winchester 63 engraving question:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=393378
Do you think this is a factory engraved rifle or after market engraving??
Thanks in advance for any and all comments0 -
p.muerrle's response to the Model 63 question:
"That engraving was not done by any of the Winchester factory engravers. It is an engraving that seems to be very loosely based on a factory No. 8 pattern"0 -
Link to Winchester 21 engraving question:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=392084
Exerpted pics and P.muerrle's evaluation from the same link. Best, Joe
"The Model 21 you are refering to is incidentally one of the few legit guns I've seen for a while. I checked my Model 21 records and it is in there. I also checked Jasper Salerno's personal engraving records and found the following: Jasper started work on this gun on June 21, 1971. It was commissioned through the Ft. Buckner Gun club and sent to Winchester Asia Inc. for John Wheat. All the specs listed are accurate according to Jasper's books and other 21 records I have. Considering the percentage of Model 21s that I have seen misrepresented the last few years this gun would be an excellent investment for someone. Hope this answers your questions".0 -
Seller claims all original......???
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=395006
This gun has been engraved with a factory "style" No. 6. While the pictures aren't the greatest I can see that none of the Ulrichs did this. The scrollwork in places is crooked and has flat spots. We refered to these as square scrolls in the Custom Shop. This is especially true on the bbl. The Ulrichs were also known for their meticulous detail in the landscape of animal scenes which is also not present here. The other thing to look at on the bbl. is the wear on the engraving. It looks to be from an over polish job not natural handling wear.
p. muerrle0 -
Winchester pigeons and pigeon grades
Here is some info on pigeons and pigeon grade Model 12s and 42s that should straighten out some misconceptions.
Winchester pigeons were Marked on bbl. extensions using a special brass template to insure size and positioning was consistent. Once the pigeon was traced out it was cut in by hand. The number of lines underneath the pigeon, despite what a lot of people think was not consistent. It ranged between three up to five. On M42s it was sometimes just one applied with a liner tool or again it could be several. What is important to look for is the two bands on the wing and the matting on the head and neck area. Winchester engravers had special matting tools they made for this.
Pigeon grade M12s and M42s need to have exceptional grain in the stock and forearm. They were either embellished with a pigeon grade checkering pattern, A carved or B carved.
Pigeon grades, besides the pigeon could be engraved with any of the five patterns or not engraved at all.
The bolt and carrier were jeweled on pigeon grade guns.
Finally, all pigeon grades had hand polished internal parts. If you are looking at a supposed new in the box or a "near mint" pigeon grade and the action isn't as smooth as silk, beware.
There will always be an exception to the rule but they are extremely far and few between.0 -
Thanks, dear lady! Especially for the enlightenment on the use of 'matting tools'! Best, Joe 0 -
Hello Pauline,
Do you recognize this work? The gun is an early 1963 vintage Model 94 Carbine. The quality of the work suggests that it may have been Winchester.
Thank you in advance for looking and your inputs.0 -
Hi Bert,
The engraving was not done by the factory. At the time you say it was made it would have been done by Nick or John Kusmit. This is not their work. Winchester also did not do silver inlays which this appears to be. The wood would have been done by Eddy Kaik at this time. Again, this is not Eddy's work. Another red flag for me which I warn people all the time about is fancy carved wood with little or no fancy grain in the wood itself. I have inspected numerous guns for people that have outstanding carving done on plain grain wood. Anything that came out of Winchester would have had exceptional grain if the carving was ordered fancy.0 -
quote:Originally posted by p.muerrle
Hi Bert,
The engraving was not done by the factory. At the time you say it was made it would have been done by Nick or John Kusmit. This is not their work. Winchester also did not do silver inlays which this appears to be. The wood would have been done by Eddy Kaik at this time. Again, this is not Eddy's work. Another red flag for me which I warn people all the time about is fancy carved wood with little or no fancy grain in the wood itself. I have inspected numerous guns for people that have outstanding carving done on plain grain wood. Anything that came out of Winchester would have had exceptional grain if the carving was ordered fancy.
Pauline,
Thank you kindly for the reply and the information. This particular Winchester was worked on by somebody with a considerable amount of talent & skill... whomever it was.0 -
Have you ever seen a 94 centennial with a engraved nickel receiver and gold inlay saying centennial anniversary edition ,1 of 100 and have a horse and rider on the right side ? It is a grade 1 with 26" half octagon barrel.Thanks http://sports.webshots.com/album/575077113LoZUwo 0 -
I have an Winchester 1890 and I do not know if this is factory engraving it is very detailed and of a high quality.
I called the Winchester Museum and they stated that the gun was pulled from stock on 11/09/1906, It was a 22 short Rifle that shipped on 11/10/1906. from order number 81522. That is all the information that they had on this gun. It is known that on the 1890 some of the records were not complete Pryor to 1908. This gun has a 1911 patent date barrel. this gun is marked 1890. It has the deluxe frame and the lower frame (tang) and the receiver do match in serial number. This gun has the most beautiful wood I have seen it must be of presentation grade, the fore arm is not grooved like the standard Deluxe. The proof mark on the top of the receiver is engraved into the metal - not stamped. Is it Factory?? Is it factory engraved?? was it sent back for upgrades?? these questions may never be answered but it a breath taking example of old world craftsmanship.
Can you help me at all? It is listed on Gunbroker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142535054
O. K. Welty II www.rockriveroutfitter.com0 -
I have never seen a Model 94 like this. The horse and rider looks like is from the Marlin logo. 0 -
The 1890 you have does not have clear enough pictures, ( too much glare ) to tell if it was done by one of the factory engravers. I can tell you this much, if it was done by a factory engraver it is very close to John or Nick Kusmits style. Neither were employed at the time your letter states. The gun has been refinished, wood and metal, so there is a possibility that one of them could have upgraded this gun on the outside of the plant at a later date. I just can't make out enough detail in these pictures to tell you for sure that one of them did it. 0 -
Another note on your 1890, proof marks were never engraved on guns. They were always stamped on. 0 -
Have you ever heard of winchester selling there comemrative rifles with out their engraving to someone else for custom work.The ser# and box identify the rifle as a grade 1,centennial,but the finish,stock and engraving is wrong,plus the 1 of 100 bit.http://sports.webshots.com/album/575077113LoZUwo 0 -
To my knowledge they did not do this with commemoratives. 0 -
But they did do it with "special edition" Model 94s (e.g. the Dodge, Cheverolet, Coco Cola, Ducks Unlimited, etc giveaway/raffle guns) 0 -
Great thread! I have 32 Winchester levers dated from 1873 thru 1912 (all 73's, 76's, 86's and 92's) plus other model 90's (4), 52, 62, 97, 52 and 70. Got them all in the early '80's when you could get them cheap (compared to today). Unfortunately, none have engraving.
Great learning thread.0 -
Moved to this string by yours truly (Color added for emphasis). Thanks, Pauline!
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 9:51:42 PM
Pigeon Model 12s did not have to be engraved. The wood should either have pigeon grade checkering or A or B carving.
p. muerrle
Further Model 12 Information taken from Pauline's response:
That is not a factory pigeon. The checkering pattern on stock and forearm is not pigeon grade checkering. From what I can see of the forearm it appears to be one large diamond on the bottom. It should have three diamonds, the ones on the ends checkered and the one in the middle plain. The checkering on the stock doesn't have the small checkered "tail" protruding from it as the correct pigeon grade checkering pattern would have had. The engraved pigeon was not done by a factory engraver. The shading, and also the lines underneath the pigeon are done incorrectly.0 -
I have an Winchester rifle with engraving and was wondering if it is factory. I can not find any trace of refinishing on this rifle. The Cody winchester has no information on this model.
Listed under triggertripper are photos. I could not add photos to this forum.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153718702
O. K. Welty Oregon Illinois0 -
This engraving is loosely based on a factory No. 8 pattern. While it is a nice engraving job it was not done by anyone who worked in the factory. 0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
69 comments