Touchy Subject, Argument With Aunt
So last night we had a family dinner at my grandmas house like we do at least twice a week. I have a big family and we usually discuss politics and stuff like that. Well last night my aunt brought up the pregnancy of Jamie Lynn Spears who is 16 and unmarried. My aunts opinion was that this girl is a "s*lut" and her parents were "horribly negligant". My opinion was that may very well be true but that the only different between Jamie Lynn and many girls her age is that she chose to give birth and not have an abortion like so many girls her age do. My aunt said that was utterly not true, that "very few" girls in that age group get pregnant and much less have abortions.
I argued that the statistics say otherwise. I was pretty sure from what I had read that almost 40% of females in America will have an abortion by the time they are 35. At this point my aunt almost started to yell at me and became very angry at me. I had a good suspicion why. My aunt has 3 daughters. They are all in their 30's now but I remember very clearly when we were younger they all partied alot, did some drugs and had a reputation for "sleeping around". They were VERY attractive in high school. I love my cousins but statistically speaking that would put them in a catagory of "very likely" to have had an abortion.
So I did some checking. I looked up abortion statistics in America. According to my research 47% of American women have had an abortion by the time they are 40 years old. When you factor in some common sense you see that it is highly likely that if you had 3 daughters then one of them had an abortion.
I know for many of you this might be a touch subject, and it is. I just dont like the fact that in America we have to critize everyone else and at the same time deny or ignore the skeletons in our own closet.
If my pointing out some statistics about abortion makes you want to direct anger at me, let me point out I have never had an abortion, my daughters have never had an abortion (too young) and I have never been the cause of an abortion.
Before you pass judgement on Jamie Lynn Spears, can you honestly say the same thing about yourself ?
I argued that the statistics say otherwise. I was pretty sure from what I had read that almost 40% of females in America will have an abortion by the time they are 35. At this point my aunt almost started to yell at me and became very angry at me. I had a good suspicion why. My aunt has 3 daughters. They are all in their 30's now but I remember very clearly when we were younger they all partied alot, did some drugs and had a reputation for "sleeping around". They were VERY attractive in high school. I love my cousins but statistically speaking that would put them in a catagory of "very likely" to have had an abortion.
So I did some checking. I looked up abortion statistics in America. According to my research 47% of American women have had an abortion by the time they are 40 years old. When you factor in some common sense you see that it is highly likely that if you had 3 daughters then one of them had an abortion.
I know for many of you this might be a touch subject, and it is. I just dont like the fact that in America we have to critize everyone else and at the same time deny or ignore the skeletons in our own closet.
If my pointing out some statistics about abortion makes you want to direct anger at me, let me point out I have never had an abortion, my daughters have never had an abortion (too young) and I have never been the cause of an abortion.
Before you pass judgement on Jamie Lynn Spears, can you honestly say the same thing about yourself ?
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47% seems a little high to me.
Jon0 -
You do realize that the term "abortion" includes miscarriages, right? 0 -
quote:You do realize that the term "abortion" includes miscarriages, right?
Wasn't even aware of that until I just started looking at the statistics. That would explain where a good chunk of that 47% comes from.
Jon0 -
It really isn't at the top of my list of concerns,........Spears, or abortion.
Hard to believe from a conservative, but the truth nonetheless.
I believe that is a personal issue.
You choose to do it, you live with it, if it is against your beliefs.
Until the folks that want to make it illegal come up with a solution for what will be done with all of the unwanted children,........I stand by what I said.
My personal feeling is to be offended by it, but I have no solution.
That is why I don't make it into a "political" issue.
I live down the road from a HUGE Catholic church that always has folks out with the blood and guts pictures on signs.
If they would all volunteer to adopt several "crack" babies themselves, I may have a different outlook on it.
I still say it is a personal decision, no matter how repugnant I may feel that it is.0 -
95% of all statistics are made up on the spot I'm told.
It's just political polls and Global Warming. What the stats say depends on who gathered them and what they WANTED them to say.0 -
As far as your Aunt is concerned, (1) you probably nailed it (2) being correct will never mean you are right (3) You cannot die to take every hill. Figure out which hill is worth dying for. Is this particular hill worth it? Since I have no stake in the rep of the Spears girls OR their parents, would tend to say something like"Yes, it certainly is a shame. Say, did Uncle Frank take you to that restaurant you like so much?" Some issues have such a high emotional content they do not permit the use of logical argument. Sounds like you happened upon one of those. 0 -
what ethnic group? i'll bet 46% of those arent american pie. 0 -
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion...
As far as Jamie Spears goes, she isn't the first 16 year old to become pregnant, and she will not be the last.
It is an interesting point though. While I would not want my own daughter , nor would I advise any young girl to become pregnant at that age in this date in time, you also have to remember that once upon a time as recent as the beginning of the last century, girls were often married at that age (my own grandmother for one, at 14) and having children. I'de wager to bet that some of our fine members' own mothers or grandmothers, or great grandmothers were also married off at such an age.
So what changed? Why, in this post-Industrial Revolution, post Depression era, post WWII, etc.. supposedly more progressive and liberal society is 16 considered an improper age to have a child? Of course, the importance of secondary and post-secondary education, economic reasons, and the social changes brough on by the women's liberation movement...
Surely American society has changed, and so has her values. As a society that claims a "longing for traditional family values," why the about-face in this matter?
Back to Jamie Lynn, she is a public figure, and due I'm sure in no small part to her sister's escapades, people enjoy tearing their idols down from the pedistal more that they enjoy putting them up.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion...
As far as Jamie Spears goes, she isn't the first 16 year old to become pregnant, and she will not be the last.
It is an interesting point though. While I would not want my own daughter , nor would I advise any young girl to become pregnant at that age in this date in time, you also have to remember that once upon a time as recent as the beginning of the last century, girls were often married at that age (my own grandmother for one, at 14) and having children. I'de wager to bet that some of our fine members' own mothers or grandmothers, or great grandmothers were also married off at such an age.
So what changed? Why, in this post-Industrial Revolution, post Depression era, post WWII, etc.. supposedly more progressive and liberal society is 16 considered an improper age to have a child? Of course, the importance of secondary and post-secondary education, economic reasons, and the social changes brough on by the women's liberation movement...
Surely American society has changed, and so has her values. As a society that claims a "longing for traditional family values," why the about-face in this matter?
Back to Jamie Lynn, she is a public figure, and due I'm sure in no small part to her sister's escapades, people enjoy tearing their idols down from the pedistal more that they enjoy putting them up.
I actually agree with most of what you have to say this time![:D]
It was true in the past,........nobody in my family that I am aware of the history of, but I am sure somewhere way back there, one exists.
I also could care less about "Spears",.......at least they have the money to pay for everything that is needed.
Back in the day you are referring to,........there were no welfare programs.
The church, and first of all families took care of one another.
I don't care if folks get married at 16, or necessarily have babies, if that is what they wish to do.
My concern lies in the part that HAS changed,.........I don't want to pay for them!0 -
quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion...
As far as Jamie Spears goes, she isn't the first 16 year old to become pregnant, and she will not be the last.
It is an interesting point though. While I would not want my own daughter , nor would I advise any young girl to become pregnant at that age in this date in time, you also have to remember that once upon a time as recent as the beginning of the last century, girls were often married at that age (my own grandmother for one, at 14) and having children. I'de wager to bet that some of our fine members' own mothers or grandmothers, or great grandmothers were also married off at such an age.
So what changed? Why, in this post-Industrial Revolution, post Depression era, post WWII, etc.. supposedly more progressive and liberal society is 16 considered an improper age to have a child? Of course, the importance of secondary and post-secondary education, economic reasons, and the social changes brough on by the women's liberation movement...
Surely American society has changed, and so has her values. As a society that claims a "longing for traditional family values," why the about-face in this matter?
Back to Jamie Lynn, she is a public figure, and due I'm sure in no small part to her sister's escapades, people enjoy tearing their idols down from the pedistal more that they enjoy putting them up.
You drink coffee black don't you. Don0 -
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion...
As far as Jamie Spears goes, she isn't the first 16 year old to become pregnant, and she will not be the last.
It is an interesting point though. While I would not want my own daughter , nor would I advise any young girl to become pregnant at that age in this date in time, you also have to remember that once upon a time as recent as the beginning of the last century, girls were often married at that age (my own grandmother for one, at 14) and having children. I'de wager to bet that some of our fine members' own mothers or grandmothers, or great grandmothers were also married off at such an age.
So what changed? Why, in this post-Industrial Revolution, post Depression era, post WWII, etc.. supposedly more progressive and liberal society is 16 considered an improper age to have a child? Of course, the importance of secondary and post-secondary education, economic reasons, and the social changes brough on by the women's liberation movement...
Surely American society has changed, and so has her values. As a society that claims a "longing for traditional family values," why the about-face in this matter?
Back to Jamie Lynn, she is a public figure, and due I'm sure in no small part to her sister's escapades, people enjoy tearing their idols down from the pedistal more that they enjoy putting them up.
You drink coffee black don't you. Don
No, usually cream, 2 sugars....0 -
Also back in days you are referencing,......lifespans were far shorter than now.
Another reason for earlier marriage, and childbirth.
It was a totally different world,.......in "many" ways.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
Also back in days you are referencing,......lifespans were far shorter than now.
Another reason for earlier marriage, and childbirth.
It was a totally different world,.......in "many" ways.
Absolutely, plus, in an agrarian society, a woman of childbearing age needed to produce as many children as she possibly could while she was still able to do so...More kids to work the farm, support the family...0 -
I wouldn't know Brittany Spears if she sat on my lap wearing a name tag.
Depending on the jurisdiction, I'm thinking that there is a male somewhere who could be worried about statuatory rape.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
You do realize that the term "abortion" includes miscarriages, right?
Depends on who you are talking to. Federal law concering the collection of data on abortions in America states that medical officials must distinguish between elected induced abortions and cases where the medical safety of mother or fetus resulted in a miscarrage.
According to all medical data the number of NON health related abortions amount to about 99% of all abortions performed.
Therefore, anyone who would try to qualify numbers of abortions performed under the guise of a "miscarrage" would be disingenious and most likely factually inccorect.0 -
I dont understand how any one arguing for gun rights can call for a ban on abortion. Banning abortion is the ULTIMATE control, when a system can tell you what to do with your body, thats too much. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by SuburbanNoize
I dont understand how any one arguing for gun rights can call for a ban on abortion. Banning abortion is the ULTIMATE control, when a system can tell you what to do with your body, thats too much.
Right on!0 -
quote:Originally posted by SuburbanNoize
I dont understand how any one arguing for gun rights can call for a ban on abortion. Banning abortion is the ULTIMATE control, when a system can tell you what to do with your body, thats too much.
Those that argue for the banning of abortion see the unborn child as an individual. Having two children of my own, and one "fetus" due in June, I can't say when life actually starts, but I've seen enough sonograms to know that there's a tiny kid in there before the second trimester even starts. You can see hands and feet by like 12 weeks. It's awesome.
Anyway, what's wrong with just not having sex with people you don't want kids with? It's worked pretty well for me so far.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SuburbanNoize
I dont understand how any one arguing for gun rights can call for a ban on abortion. Banning abortion is the ULTIMATE control, when a system can tell you what to do with your body, thats too much.
Really? Too much you say? What about the life inside that body?
And besides, the abortion issue tends to be one sided, in the womans favor. Where are the FATHERS right to STOP said murder? There are none. YET if the WOMAN chooses to keep said child, the FATHER is forced to PAY for HER decision.
Setting aside religious issues, LET us ponder this one moment.
IF a woman chooses to NOT be a mother, you HAVE NO SAY, even if YOU want to raise the child YOURSELF.
IF the WOMAN CHOOSES to raise said child, the FATHER has no choice but to FUND HER decision.
Women are given unfair,unmoral, and unrealistic POWER, which they don't deserve. The FATHER aught to have a SAY in the matter TOO. What the "F" ever happened to parenting being a SHARED responsibility?0 -
quote:Originally posted by woodshermit
I wouldn't know Brittany Spears if she sat on my lap wearing a name tag.
Depending on the jurisdiction, I'm thinking that there is a male somewhere who could be worried about statuatory rape.
Good point...wasn't there a recent case in Georgia where the boyfriend was 18 or 19 but the girlfriend was 16(?), and he ended up in the slammer even though the sex was consensual?
The same ages apply here...what state are these kids in?
As for the Jamie Lynn Spears pregnancy thing, well, I guess I admire her for not taking the easy way out.
OTOH, what an idiot to get pregnant in the 1st place. Literally throwing away a good money-making job down the toilet0 -
quote:Originally posted by cce1302
quote:Originally posted by SuburbanNoize
I dont understand how any one arguing for gun rights can call for a ban on abortion. Banning abortion is the ULTIMATE control, when a system can tell you what to do with your body, thats too much.
Those that argue for the banning of abortion see the unborn child as an individual. Having two children of my own, and one "fetus" due in June, I can't say when life actually starts, but I've seen enough sonograms to know that there's a tiny kid in there before the second trimester even starts. You can see hands and feet by like 12 weeks. It's awesome.
Anyway, what's wrong with just not having sex with people you don't want kids with? It's worked pretty well for me so far.
Nothing wrong with that at all..just make damn sure she's safe or you are. Bang away[:)]0 -
European Women really got into the Abortion Thing.
Soon there will be no European Culture.
Magna Carta
Shakespeare
Beethoven
Bible
Empire
Literature
Rights
Due to the shortage of European Humans, they will soon be a Muslim Culture with Submarines and Nukes. With their History erased.
What traditional rights do you think will remain?
There are more practicing Muslims in France than there are attending Catholics.0 -
Arguing with a woman - is like trying to blow out a lightbulb..... 0 -
Why is it that you can't claim an unborn child on taxes, but you will get charged with a double murder if you kill a pregnant woman? Seems our govt. has double standards. [?][?][?][?][?] 0 -
Ahhh... I think you might want to look at your statistics again. The figure you cite "almost 40% of females in America..." is there, but not with regard to those who "will have an abortion by the time they are 35." The 40% figure is 40% of those who have an abortion are less than 35 years old. There's just a little difference there. Other statistics that you might find interesting -- as of the year 2000 56.6% of abortions were white and 36.3% were black with the remainder being "other." Best of luck -- Steve 0 -
quote:According to my research 47% of American women have had an abortion by the time they are 40 years old.
Almost half????
Total BS.0 -
quote:Civil Rights:
... from what I had read that almost 40% of females in America will have an abortion by the time they are 35.
I believe the hypocrisy frequency on GB is much higher than that (40%) - so why sweat it?
Life is what it is.
[:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by forkliftking
Why is it that you can't claim an unborn child on taxes, but you will get charged with a double murder if you kill a pregnant woman? Seems our govt. has double standards. [?][?][?][?][?]
You don't say........ [;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Warpig883
quote:According to my research 47% of American women have had an abortion by the time they are 40 years old.
Almost half????
Total BS.
sounds pretty high to me too. but thats what the stats say.
here are some rough facts....
avg number of abortions performed per year is about 1.3 million
female population of america is about 150,000,000
subtract the number of females under the age of 11 in america (22 mil)
subtract the number of females over the age of 65 (10 mil)
you could even subtract females over the age of 45 since they account for 1 % of all abortions
you are now left with about 105,000,000 females approx
that would mean that roughly 10% of women in america between 12-45 get an abortion every year.
then when you consider the span of a womens life where she can get an abortion is 33 years approx it might make sense the figure of 47% of all women.
it still sounds high to me but the most important thing to remmeber is....how would one know how many women are getting abortions ? do they tell you ? do they tell everyone ? abortions are a secret thing, and i only know one girl who had an abortion. however, i know at least 15 guys who have said "i knocked a girl up and she got an abortion"0 -
In my little personal world, the government has no standing with regard to abortions.
It is a decision that should be made by the people affected, and there should be no government involvement in it - OF ANY KIND.
The child's father should be involved in the decision, should he so desire, if there are to be laws about it.
Doug0
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