Gunfight at the OK corral.
Friday Oct.26 will be the anniversary of the famous 30 second gunfight at the OK corral.
On a related note. Doc Holiday who participated in the gunfight, had a big mouthed, big nosed, trouble making girlfriend called "Big Nosed Kate".
In modern times we'd call her Barbara Strisand.
On a related note. Doc Holiday who participated in the gunfight, had a big mouthed, big nosed, trouble making girlfriend called "Big Nosed Kate".
In modern times we'd call her Barbara Strisand.
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Wyatt Earp is a myth.
Doug0 -
Wyatt was not well known during his lifetime.
Did not become "famous" until a book was written
about him in the 1930's IIRC...0 -
Doug,
Some maybe, but not all of it. I'm sure Wyatt embellished his own side of events. Most books, dime store novels, TV and movie accounts, though, go beyond the truths into myths or outright untruths in order to glamorize him or the gunfighters he may or may not have killed. His character has remained over the years with many of the myths intact as well as having some new myths created for sensationalism. There were many eye witness accounts of his Killing Curly Bill.
Hardin sure wasn't a myth, and nether was Wild Bill Hickok. Legend has it that when two gamblers Ben Thompson and Phil Coe painted a rather vulgar picture of a bull as an advertisement for their establishment The "Bull's Head Tavern", in Abilene Kansas, citizens of the town complained to Abilene's Marshal "Wild Bill" Hickok. When Thompson and Coe refused to take down the bull, Hickok altered it himself. Infuriated, Thompson exclaimed to Hardin, "He's a damn Yankee. Picks on Rebels, especially Texans, to kill." Hardin simply replied, "If Wild Bill needs killin', why don't you kill him yourself?".
By all accounts, despite Hardin's having been a dangerous man, he seemed to have, at the very least, respected Hickok. Later that night, Hardin was confronted by Hickok, who told Hardin to hand over his guns, which Hardin did. Hickok did not arrest Hardin, for reasons unknown, and it was later claimed that Hickok had no knowledge that Hardin was wanted. Hickok did advise him to avoid problems while in Abilene. Phil Coe was later killed by Hickok during a street brawl, during which Hickok also accidentally killed his own deputy. Thompson did not confront Hickok over the Coe shooting, allegedly believing that Hickok had been justified in the event.
Trinity +++0 -
Okay, Trinity, where does the road-agent-spin have its basis? Check ya later, got some errands to run. 0 -
Kimi,
Which individual are you referring to? We have mentioned so many.
Trinity +++0 -
I think kimi is referring to the deceptive maneuver (road-agent-spin) where you seem to be surrendering your handgun potentially to a peace officer, which calms the other person, then a quick maneuver to rotate the handgun to an armed position and potentially shoot the unsuspecting officer; like depicted by Curley Bill in Tombstone. 0 -
Is it not "Huckle bearer " ... 0 -
Old Colt,
You are referring to Curly Bill's killing of Marshal White, of which he got off with a slap on the hand.
It is also known as the "Stagecoach shift" aka (the Road Agent Spin). It is an interesting technique where one presents the handle of a handgun forward and then at the right time spins it around pointing the muzzle towards the unsuspecting person. It is a cool technique, but not one that would work if the victim already has knowledge of it. John Wesley Hardin was rumored to have once used it jokingly on Wild Bill Hickok like a student testing the master, but it couldn't be confirmed. Hardin wrote about it in 1895 the year of his death, and Hickok had been long dead since then.
I thought Kimi was speaking of the Road Agents who along with the train robbers of their time would stop and hijack Stagecoaches. The area around Tombstone was crowded with silver mines. The miners had to have a way to ship their booty out of the area, and business had to also send their payroll via Stagecoaches. They were easy pickings for the Road Agents back then. In fact Doc Holiday was accused of being a Road Agent when in Tombstone.
Trinity +++0 -
Shortly before White died he stated he felt "Curly Bill" shot him
by accident. Most likely the reason he walked.
White is shown in the movies as an older man when in fact
he died young (30's) leaving a wife and young child.0 -
MFI,
That has been discussed here on GB many times. I also once thought Doc was saying Huckle Bearer, but I was sent the movie script, and it clearly says "Huckle Berry".
Here is some more trivia for ya.
If you try hard enough you can tie almost all the Old West characters together in one way or another.
Selman who killed Hardin was killed in a shootout several months later by US Marshal George Scarborough.
A good friend of Hardin's, Selman & Scarborough's was an outlaw named Jim Miller. At the time of Hardin's death he was carrying a gun Miller gave him. Miller was married to a cousin of John Wesley Hardin.
It is rumored that Miller was the actual killer of Sheriff Pat Garrett who claimed to have killed Billy the Kid. There is some disagreement about who actually shot Pat Garrett. Most historians believe Jesse Wayne Brazel, who confessed to the shooting and was tried for first degree murder, did in fact commit the crime. However, the outlaw Jim Miller was a known killer for hire and cousin of a fellow named Carl Adamson, who along with enemies of Garrett wanted Garrett killed. Carl Adamson, who was married to a cousin of Miller's wife, was also with Garrett when he was killed, which most likely led to the rumors that Miller was involved. But mostly this is believed to be a rumor because Adamson was kin to Miller, and Miller is believed to have been in Oklahoma at the time. A fellow named Oliver Lee was also alleged to have taken part in a conspiracy to kill Garrett, made up of businessmen and outlaws who disliked the former lawman.
Trinity +++0 -
Sorry Kimi, but it is just not true that Hardin was the fastest. The fastest gun in the west was a fellow named Doug Wilson who was born at an early age. So fast that he was out of Tombstone 30 minutes before the OK Corral rumble, it was one of the few fights he was almost a part of. It is true that he shot 7 dwarfs working a mine in Nevada, and 2 borax wagon drivers in Death Valley in 1863. While some have said that he bushwhacked them all, others have written that all were killed in fair fights. This may very well be true of the two men he killed in Montana at the Missoula County fair in 1918 near the end of his gunfighter days. In any event it is a little known fact that he outdrew Rod Redwing in the 1950's when Redwing was widely believed to have been the fastest draw alive. He did not, as has sometimes been alleged kill Redwing however, because Redwing recovered. It is true also that Doug was the first gunfighter to use the .17 caliber rimfire in a shoot out, switching to .45 Colt subsequent to his convalescence. Finally, he did not, as has been stated, shoot to death Howard Hughs, though it is true that the Spruce Goose is in his personal collection. For the price he paid for what he thought would be a working plane for a bush pilot (his career after he retired from gunfighting), he certainly should have shot Hughs. The final talley on his shootouts may never be completely known, but it is well documented if little known that he faced and killed more than 80 men, some of them intentionally. It is also true that Doug Wilson is still alive today in Orygun, a fact that is none the less disputed by most who know him. 0 -
Trinity:
John Wesley Hardin was supposed to be a fast draw artist with either hand. Hardin, being ambidextrous, was known to wear two six guns at times. In his book, I think, he was to have claimed that he used a trick that was to become known as the road agent's spin in one of his meetings with Hickcock, like Old-Colts mentioned, in that Hardin handed his two guns over butt first, only to spin them so fast that Hickcock could not react safely enough to protect himself, before both of Hardins cocked guns were trained on him at very close range.
Some people, for whatever reason(s), do not see this as ever happening. In my opinion, Hardin was known to be dead serious, no pun intended, and he was probably called many things, but I have never read where anyone ever called John Wesley Hardin a BS'er - meaning that "if" he said he got the drop on Hickcock with this trick, he more than likely did just that. I think, too, that many historians might credit John Wesley Hardin with developing this maneuver that can be executed with lightning speed.0 -
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
Sorry Kimi, but that is just not true. The fastest gun in the west was a fellow named Doug Wilson who was born at an early age. So fast that he was out of Tombstone 30 minutes before the OK Corral rumble, it was one of the few fights he was almost a part of. It is true that he shot 7 dwarfs working a mine in Nevada, and 2 borax wagon drivers in Death Valley in 1863. While some have said that he bushwhacked them all, others have written that all were killed in fair fights. This may very well be true of the two men he killed in Montana at the Missoula County fair in 1918 near the end of his gunfighter days. In any event it is a little known fact that he outdrew Rod Redwing in the 1950's when Redwing was widely believed to have been the fastest draw alive. He did not, as has sometimes been alleged kill Redwing however, because Redwing recovered. It is true also that Doug was the first gunfighter to use the .17 caliber rimfire in a shoot out, switching to .45 Colt subsequent to his convalescence. Finally, he did not, as has been stated, shoot to death Howard Hughs, though it is true that the Spruce Goose is in his personal collection. For the price he paid for what he thought would be a working plane for a bush pilot (his career after he retired from gunfighting), he certainly should have shot Hughs. The final talley on his shootouts may never be completely known, but it is well documented if little known that he faced and killed more than 80 men, some of them intentionally. It is also ture that Doug Wilson is still alive today in Orygun, a fact that is none the less disputed by most who know him.
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Wyatt Earp is a myth.
Doug
Then who stole James Keys' horses on 28 March 1871?0 -
I have to say that was a very good reading thread.
lots of really good information.[:)]0 -
Kimi,
Your right, and I think I mentioned Hardin doing the spin on Hickok in an above post.
I believe it was a Texas Ranger who after Hardin's death was quoted as saying this.
"If Hardin was shot in the front it was good marksmanship. If he was shot in the back it was a wise decision".
Talking about Earp myths, I have always felt his being giving a Colt Buttline Special has never been proven. Ned Buttline says he gave him one, but the gun has never been located, and I don't recall if Wyatt ever claimed to have received one. In my opinion if it did exist it would no doubt be the most valuable handgun ever.
Trinity +++0 -
This was some interesting reading! Certainly one of the "better threads" in my humble opinion.
I'd like to read more about Doug Wilson the gunfighter/bush pilot. I had always heard he carried a cannon with him wherever he went.After his bush pilot career, I heard he was a stunt man in the adult movies. I think it would be alot easier to follow the career of Doug Wilson with illustrations by the famous artist, Wallie.[:D]0 -
As to Hardin being the "fastest gun in the west", when he was in jail once, the jailors gave him his two pocket vest to put on, and his two Colt .41 double action Thunderers, and asked him to perform. Unloaded, of course, they weren't insane. They said it was so quick that the it was dificult for the eye to follow it, and the clicking of the triggers sounded like a rattlesnake.
However; in the book by Ed McGivern of Lewiston, Montana, whose feats of draw, fire and hit have never been excelled, he uses the example of Harvey Logan (aka Kid Curry) of the Wild Bunch. You can see his picture in the photograph taken in Fort Worth of the five desperados. Logan was said to be able to do the "silver dollar trick", where you extend your arm at 90 degrees to your body, palm down, lay a silver dollar on the back of your hand and draw before the coin hits the ground. Not only that but fire the gun three times. Some say four. Since there were no ways of timing that event, we have to take the statements of those that witnessed as probably correct.0 -
Check this sight out. It is from a 1967 Gun Digest artical.
http://www.darkcanyon.net/gunfighters_of_the_old_west.htm
It also mentions what may have happened to Earps 45LC Butline. However, I found it odd that they left out any mention of the famed gunfighter Doug (The wild man) Wilson.[:D]
Trinity +++0 -
quote:Originally posted by TrinityScrimshaw
Kimi,
Your right, and I think I mentioned Hardin doing the spin on Hickok in an above post.
I believe it was a Texas Ranger who after Hardin's death was quoted as saying this.
"If Hardin was shot in the front it was good marksmanship. If he was shot in the back it was a wise decision".
Talking about Earp myths, I have always felt his being giving a Colt Buttline Special has never been proven. Ned Buttline says he gave him one, but the gun has never been located, and I don't recall if Wyatt ever claimed to have received one. In my opinion if it did exist it would no doubt be the most valuable handgun ever.
Trinity +++
I must have missed the comment you made about the border-roll.
The Texas Ranger comment, if true or not, makes perfectly good sense to me.
I've never given much thought to the old story about Ned Buntline giving Wyatt Earp a buntline-special. I got a lot of kicks out of it though back in my Cowboy and Indian days with some of my barefoot neighbors. [:)] Anyway, I would imagine that such a long barreled Colt with the right condition would draw an astronomical sum of money at auction.0 -
If any of you folks ever go through Waco on I-35, pull off and visit the Texas Ranger Museum which is next to it - you'll be glad you did. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
I've never given much thought to the old story about Ned Buntline giving Wyatt Earp a buntline-special.
I would imagine that such a long barreled Colt with the right condition would draw an astronomical sum of money at auction.
The buntline-special story has to be true! I saw Hugh O'brian carrying it in the old TV series![:D] He used it to whack people on the head![:D]
Your are absolutely correct, original lettered 1st generation Colt Single Actions with barrel lengths greater than 7 1/2 inches command very high prices![:0]0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
If any of you folks ever go through Waco on I-35, pull off and visit the Texas Ranger Museum which is next to it - you'll be glad you did.
I visit the museum every chance I get. Never get tired of it!0 -
quote:The buntline-special story has to be true! I saw Hugh O'brian carrying it in the old TV series! He used it to whack people on the head!
Was that to enhance its accuracy?[:(]0 -
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
quote:The buntline-special story has to be true! I saw Hugh O'brian carrying it in the old TV series! He used it to whack people on the head!
Was that to enhance its accuracy?[:(]
No, the barrel was sooooooo long that when he pulled the Colt, generally in a saloon, there wasn't enough room to point and shoot, so he just hit them in the head![:D]0 -
The web sight I included a few post back stated that in 1909 Wyatt had loaned his Butline Special to a friend, who lost it in the Yukon when his boat capsized during a storm. I wonder if the water there is to cold & deep to dive in?[8D]
Trinity +++0 -
quote:I wonder if the water there is to cold & deep to dive in?
No surprise you are not CEO of Microsoft.[}:)][:p]0 -
Hey they found the Titanic didn't they?[:D]
Trinity +++0 -
Since the subject came up, here is a little information about Colt Single Actions called Buntline Specials:
The name Buntline is obviously based on its alleged association with Edward Zane Carrol Judson, who's pen name was Ned Buntline. Buntline was purported to have presented such single actions to famous western lawmen including Wyatt Earp, Bill Tilghman, Bat Masterson, Charley Basset, and Neal Brown. The validity of this association is still debated today.
Some collectors associate the term Buntline Special with any Colt Single Action with a barrel longer than 7 ? inches. However, true Buntline Specials had a flattop frame with a special leaf sight and an extra long barrel up to 16 inches in length, which was termed a carbine length barrel. The generally accepted serial number range for Buntline single actions is in the 28,800 to 28,830 range. Colt's shipping records document standard frame single action shipments with extra long barrel lengths including 8, 8 ?, 9, 9 ?, and 10 ? inches, but these would not be classified as Buntlines.
The majority of this information is contained in Graham, Kopec, and Moore's reference work "A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver".0 -
quote:Originally posted by Old-Colts
Since the subject came up, here is a little information about Colt Single Actions called Buntline Specials:
The name Buntline is obviously based on its alleged association with Edward Zane Carrol Judson, who's pen name was Ned Buntline. Buntline was purported to have presented such single actions to famous western lawmen including Wyatt Earp, Bill Tilghman, Bat Masterson, Charley Basset, and Neal Brown. The validity of this association is still debated today.
Some collectors associate the term Buntline Special with any Colt Single Action with a barrel longer than 7 ? inches. However, true Buntline Specials had a flattop frame with a special leaf sight and an extra long barrel up to 16 inches in length, which was termed a carbine length barrel. The generally accepted serial number range for Buntline single actions is in the 28,800 to 28,830 range. Colt's shipping records document standard frame single action shipments with extra long barrel lengths including 8, 8 ?, 9, 9 ?, and 10 ? inches, but these would not be classified as Buntlines.
The majority of this information is contained in Graham, Kopec, and Moore's reference work "A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver".
Good post Old-Colts.0
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