Islam
And now a few words from Admiral Lyons (retired)
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We have some big problems with some Islamic groups.
Still, I cannot bring myself to believe that Islam, in its pure form, is evil.
I believe that most Muslims are decent folks. I believe that they do their religious thing just like Lutherans do and just like Mormons do. I'm not there with any of them, but they're not harming me.
There are some totally effed up Islamic groups out there and they have managed to dominate the world stage for the last decade or so.
And where are the moderate, reasonable Muslims? I don't know, and that's a very good question. They're effing up by being quiet. They need to stand up and make their claim about what they represent. I don't see how the West doesn't launch an "anti-jihad" unless the moderate Muslims speak up.
Some will tell me that the moderate Muslims aren't speaking up because the moderate Muslims don't exist. I have no data to refute that claim. I find it hard to believe, but I cannot refute it.
How did Christians and Muslims manage to co-exist on this planet for 2000 years, and why do we now have such difficulty co-existing?
I predict a twenty-year diffuse war between the Muslim extremists and the west (i.e. those of Christian heritage, if not religion), and then we'll find a way to co-exist again.
We could just turn Iraq and Afganistan into glass parking lots, but all that would do would be to mobilize the muslims in NY and elsewhere.0 -
Let me know when the Lutherans and the Mormons start blowing up in crowded markets. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Let me know when the Lutherans and the Mormons start blowing up in crowded markets.
I think the radical Islamic minority has your attention.0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Let me know when the Lutherans and the Mormons start blowing up in crowded markets.
I think the radical Islamic minority has your attention.
Do you have evidence that they are the minority?
quote: Some will tell me that the moderate Muslims aren't speaking up because the moderate Muslims don't exist. I have no data to refute that claim. I find it hard to believe, but I cannot refute it.
Guess not. [;)] Only joking. Seriously though I don't see other religions going to such extremes all the time. In my opinion that is a twisted and sick religion.0 -
When we were fighting the japanese we interned them and we didnt have any problems with them here in america. And whether they are radical or not matters not to me. Im so sick of this Islam is peaceful BS. We are at war. It makes me feel better to generalize them all as security risks. Im not going to lie, when i see them in public, they make me angry. And its not because i dont understand them, ive read plenty to understand them. America has been in a steady decline over the years with all this touchy feely "Im ok, Your ok" BS. The way they are perceived in america is entirely their fault. They had Saddam, Ahmedinejead, Hassan Nasrallah how are we supposed to perceive them? 0 -
spurgemaster,
To answer your question about where all the moderate Muslims are, ask yourself this:
Where all the moderate Americans?
Now before anyone jumps on me for comparing Americans to jihadis. hear me out:
Most Americans have some very strong convictions. Very few of us are "kind of" pro-gun. You will very rarely come across someone who says, for exapmle, "I believe revolvers are good enough. Leave the semiautos for the police."
But whereas we Americans can hold strong beliefs in this nation without resorting to gunplay, Muslims, by and large, inhabit a part of the world were dissent is not tolerated. Hell, most people live in the real world where dissent is not tolerated. Take a look at how Northern Ireland and the Balkans turned out. Take a look at Southeast Asia. Take a look at Africa.
Now throw into the mix a lack of education and some loudmouthed religious schnooks who claim to speak for God and you've got a real problem on your hands.
And then throw on top of that a deep seated, almost genetically-engrained sense of cultural humilation and you have what we see now.
The moderates, where they do exist, seem weak and cowardly. Take a look at how those who advocate dialogue are viewed here in the U.S. Were we in more dire economic and educational straits, these inividuals would be shot at, make no mistake of that.
This war will last until someone wins. And this is not, or should not be, a war between the West and Islam. On a more fundamental basis, it is an Islamic civil war and the radicals are trying to win it by drawing us in, the better to rally patriotic support for their most decidedly unpatriotic cause.
We should be encouraging democracy in the Middle East not by supporting wars against Iraq and Lebanon or sheltering terrorists in Kurdistan, but by encouraging investment and exchanges, both civilian and military, with nations we know we can trust and who trust us.
Unfortunately, going on seven years of demagoguery may have destroyed those chances for good, so gun up and hope for the best.0 -
quote: The moderates, where they do exist, seem weak and cowardly. Take a look at how those who advocate dialogue are viewed here in the U.S. Were we in more dire economic and educational straits, these inividuals would be shot at, make no mistake of that.
Disagree with you there. Even here alot are loud and pushing their beliefs on others. Here in Katy Texas they were getting riled up about someone that had pigs by some property they happened to own. Putting foot washs in airports. The list goes on.
If they are going to put foot washs in airports they need to put confesionals in them also and accomadate every damn religion out there. SuburbanNoize is correct about all the touchy feely crap needs to go. This country is sick with this garbage and it's destorying us. [:(!][:(!][:(!]
The bleening hippy culture in the late 60's wrecked this bleening country and it's been going downhill ever since in my opinion.0 -
Kodiakk,
I'm not saying i approve of Arabic culture or Islamic culture, I'm only explaining it.
And the folks in Katy, Texas? Read the whole story - the Muslims there didn't have a problem - it was a humongous misunderstanding that even their Christian neighbor admitted to!
The problem is that too many people on either side of the debate are so hardnosed in their opinions and beliefs that it makes it all but impossible for moderation to thrive.0 -
quote: And the folks in Katy, Texas? Read the whole story - the Muslims there didn't have a problem - it was a humongous misunderstanding that even their Christian neighbor admitted to!
Watched it in the local news almost every night for awhile. "Baker claims the Muslim group told him to pack up and move and that's when he started thinking about the pig races. But the group adamantly denies the charge and Allam said if someone let that slip out it was a mistake and they certainly did not mean to run Baker off his land."
http://blogs.chron.com/insidekaty/archives/2006/12/katy_pig_chase_3.html
The muslims did have a problem, otherwise why would it gain NATIONAL attention not to mention attention in the 4th largest city in the country for days on end. On the news they said they were offended by the races, I watched it. I'll bet money they tried to fun him off according to their statements and that is why the pig races were even started. He is a typical Texan that won't be pushed around.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
spurgemaster,
...Take a look at how Northern Ireland and the Balkans turned out. Take a look at Southeast Asia. Take a look at Africa.
Northern Ireland appears to me, finally to be coming to a peaceful resolution. I'm not so up on SE Asia, but I do know that the problems in Africa (where national boundaries do not coincide at all with tribal boundaries) will take many, many years to resolve.0 -
in its "pure form"?
ha like you would tell christians what the "pure form of their religion is.
Muhammed was a pirate, and wanted to conquer the world. It is really not disputable
In strict adherance to islamic dogma, there are only 3 things you are allowed to do to a infidel.
geuss what they are0 -
also muslims have fought with whoever they are in contact with for 2000 years. there has never been peace.
Matter of fact, they might have ruled the world by now if they would quit fighting amonst themselves0 -
quote:And where are the moderate, reasonable Muslims? I don't know, and that's a very good question. They're effing up by being quiet.
Been waiting for some to show up, starting to think there aren't any....0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
We have some big problems with some Islamic groups.
Still, I cannot bring myself to believe that Islam, in its pure form, is evil.
I believe that most Muslims are decent folks. I believe that they do their religious thing just like Lutherans do and just like Mormons do. I'm not there with any of them, but they're not harming me.
There are some totally effed up Islamic groups out there and they have managed to dominate the world stage for the last decade or so.
And where are the moderate, reasonable Muslims? I don't know, and that's a very good question. They're effing up by being quiet. They need to stand up and make their claim about what they represent. I don't see how the West doesn't launch an "anti-jihad" unless the moderate Muslims speak up.
Some will tell me that the moderate Muslims aren't speaking up because the moderate Muslims don't exist. I have no data to refute that claim. I find it hard to believe, but I cannot refute it.
How did Christians and Muslims manage to co-exist on this planet for 2000 years, and why do we now have such difficulty co-existing?
I predict a twenty-year diffuse war between the Muslim extremists and the west (i.e. those of Christian heritage, if not religion), and then we'll find a way to co-exist again.
We could just turn Iraq and Afganistan into glass parking lots, but all that would do would be to mobilize the muslims in NY and elsewhere.
In red above. Pretty simple really. If someone who hates you has to take the time and effort to walk a thousand miles, he will rarely, if ever, come to just punch you in the nose. However, if he now "lives next door", by modern world standards, he may try to punch you often.0 -
quote:We have some big problems with some Islamic groups.
I'd say it's THEM who have some big problems with US!
... our only problem is that we are too lazy to do much about
about anything ... as we give our country away to the Third
World.
... if the radical Muslims had an ounce of brains ... they'd sit
back and wait a while until we destroyed ourselves ... and
the convert the Spanish speakers - problem solved![:o)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
spurgemaster,
...Take a look at how Northern Ireland and the Balkans turned out. Take a look at Southeast Asia. Take a look at Africa.
Northern Ireland appears to me, finally to be coming to a peaceful resolution. I'm not so up on SE Asia, but I do know that the problems in Africa (where national boundaries do not coincide at all with tribal boundaries) will take many, many years to resolve.
Yes, Hell froze over when Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley were in the same room, and neither man tried to pop a cap in each other's ass[;)]
Seriously, there is hope for Northern Ireland. Again, another example or religion causing more greif than its worth.
SE Asia seems fairly stable today, unless you were referring to the Vietnam War/Cambodian killing fields of the '70's. Not much going on there war/revolution wise anymore.
Africa is screwed. Unless a country has mineral/oil resources, no Western nation will intervene to stop the genocide. What's in it for them? Nothing, so thousands if not millions will die.0 -
Mohamed (sp?) himself, was convinced he was demon possesed while writing the Koran. He attempted suicide several times and his wife stopped him and convinced him that he was a messenger of god...This alone should convince anyone that the religion is evil...as a matter of fact it is one of Satan's best lies. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Let me know when the Lutherans and the Mormons start blowing up in crowded markets.
Hitler was a "good" Lutheran.
Terik Azziz (Sadaam's foriegn minitster) is(or was) also Lutheran.0 -
yeah, but we aged total war on hitler, didn't we 0 -
The problem is if you stopped the average Muslim in the street, whether in America or in the middle east they would agree with the Path that the radical Muslims are on. They would agree that all other religions cannot coexist with Islam.
That is the difference between the Islamic believers and our diverse group of every kind of believers and non-believers. Islam believes they need to clean up our thinking.
You rarely ever see any Muslims stand up and denounce the acts of the Radical Muslims, even after 9-11. That should be proof enough to close the door on this discussion.[:0][:0]
The world will fight a major war with the followers of Islam at some point in the future! Not a doubt in my mind. If we bail out of Iraq we will fight this war sooner rather than later and It will be with Nukes!!!0 -
A major difference in the mindset of a Muslim, versus, a Christian, that I have noticed,..........they lump themselves together, as a religion, not by race, or by mother country. The religion is almost a "race".
An example in my area,...........a prominent cardiologist, that is a Pakistani by birth, and has lived the majority of his life in this country. He is a full citizen, worth millions, and does a lot in local organizations,...........also a seemingly, very nice man,......I have met him. Speaks perfect English also.
During the latest skirmish between Israel, and Lebanon,........caused by rockets being launched into northern Israel, out of Lebanon. This fellow took out a full page ad in the paper, calling for the stopping of the massacre, of innocent Lebanese civilians. He conveniently forgot to mention the deaths of innocent Israeli citizens,..........it was all about the Muslims. He is totally "Americanized", and should have no personal concern about Lebanon whatsoever,..........but he took a very large risk to his professional reputation, by pulling that ad, and signing he and his wifes name to it,........she is a pediatrician here too.
That would be like me as a Christian, being willing to ruin myself, because of the murders of the black Christian population in Darfur, or some comparable situation.
This is all to point out, that even the "nicest" of them, live by the idea of being a Muslim, before all else. They are not Americans, nor a Pakistani,..........they are a Muslim. That is why I say it has gone from a religion, to a race!0 -
quote:Originally posted by sig232
If we bail out of Iraq we will fight this war sooner rather than later and It will be with Nukes!!![/b]
Well, so be it. Something more drastic than what's happening now is going to have to happen. To be honest with you, I'd only feel sorry for the wildlife.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
A major difference in the mindset of a Muslim, versus, a Christian, that I have noticed,..........they lump themselves together, as a religion, not by race, or by mother country. The religion is almost a "race".
An example in my area,...........a prominent cardiologist, that is a Pakistani by birth, and has lived the majority of his life in this country. He is a full citizen, worth millions, and does a lot in local organizations,...........also a seemingly, very nice man,......I have met him. Speaks perfect English also.
During the latest skirmish between Israel, and Lebanon,........caused by rockets being launched into northern Israel, out of Lebanon. This fellow took out a full page ad in the paper, calling for the stopping of the massacre, of innocent Lebanese civilians. He conveniently forgot to mention the deaths of innocent Israeli citizens,..........it was all about the Muslims. He is totally "Americanized", and should have no personal concern about Lebanon whatsoever,..........but he took a very large risk to his professional reputation, by pulling that ad, and signing he and his wifes name to it,........she is a pediatrician here too.
That would be like me as a Christian, being willing to ruin myself, because of the murders of the black Christian population in Darfur, or some comparable situation.
This is all to point out, that even the "nicest" of them, live by the idea of being a Muslim, before all else. They are not Americans, nor a Pakistani,..........they are a Muslim. That is why I say it has gone from a religion, to a race!
You know, I have kinda noticed that for awhile. It seems like being a Muslim has become like being a member of a race. A race that doesn't very much like outsiders. A race that, as Sig232 mentioned seems to think that is has the right and needs to convert the Western World.
When one or two members of a large family commit a criminal act, it is wrong to immediately condemn the entire family. Just as when Tim McVeigh, a white Christian, murdered those people and children in OK city in 1998. It would have been unreasonable to expect white and/or Christians to feel responsible for McVeigh's actions and feel a need to speak out in public regarding any misguided thought of associated guilt. But if thousands of Tim McVeighs, on a daily basis and all over the world, continued their evil murdering, then at some point I would expect people like me to speak out and condemn the killers.
But in private or in public I have almost never known of any Muslim harshly speaking out against their murdering cousins.0 -
Trfox, McVeigh did not commit his act in the name of Jesus Christ. He was a killer who happened to be called a Christian because it makes left-wingers feel good about justifying the actions of heathen Muslims.
There are no "moderate" Muslims. They all go by the same book, worship the same false god. Just like any other insects, their members have different jobs - leaders, workers, soldiers. The soldiers kill perceived enemies, the workers aid and abet the soldiers. The leaders teach the hate, starting with the children, and co-ordinate the activities of all.
They infiltrate civilized nations, put on the "peaceful shopkeeper" costumes, and build their mosques to teach their hate in. As soon as they reach large enough numbers, they start to force their distorted, twisted, so-called "law" on the entire population. If anyone has the temerity to question them, school buses full of children start to explode.
ECC hit the nail on the head. A religion that teaches its adherents that their god wants them to murder any non-believers and forces its dogma on people under penalty of death is definitely of satan.0 -
I don't think that Christians and muslims got along OK for 2,000 years.
Do de word "Crusades" strike a familiar note ??
Doug0 -
quote:Do de word "Crusades" strike a familiar note ??
Hey Doug,.........I never knew you were Italian, or from Jersey![;)]0 -
Aha, you caught my attempt at an ethnic reference!
Just another test - you passed.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote: And the folks in Katy, Texas? Read the whole story - the Muslims there didn't have a problem - it was a humongous misunderstanding that even their Christian neighbor admitted to!
Watched it in the local news almost every night for awhile. "Baker claims the Muslim group told him to pack up and move and that's when he started thinking about the pig races. But the group adamantly denies the charge and Allam said if someone let that slip out it was a mistake and they certainly did not mean to run Baker off his land."
http://blogs.chron.com/insidekaty/archives/2006/12/katy_pig_chase_3.html
The muslims did have a problem, otherwise why would it gain NATIONAL attention not to mention attention in the 4th largest city in the country for days on end. On the news they said they were offended by the races, I watched it. I'll bet money they tried to fun him off according to their statements and that is why the pig races were even started. He is a typical Texan that won't be pushed around.
Kodiakk,
Craig Baker admitted that it was a misunderstanding between him and the mosque. They had asked him to remove a fence he had on land they had purchased and he took that to mean they were telling him to pack it up and leave.
Craig Baker, last I heard, was still holding pig races because he didn't want to look totally foolish and besides, he enjoys the sport.
Baker was man enough to admit that he overreacted and blew the entire thing out of proportion. And that's something you won't hear in the mainstream media.[;)]0 -
islam sucks and so do muslims. i'm not "pc" and i'm not stupid either. america doesnt need muslims and i hope they all leave. 0 -
Please give a link or some kind of proof to your claim that he admitted it being a misunderstanding.
quote: But the group adamantly denies the charge and Allam said if someone let that slip out it was a mistake and they certainly did not mean to run Baker off his land
In bold above sounds EXTREMELY fishy to me. Not admitting it, but why would you say that unless you know you did infact say that? I know I sure wouldn't.
I think he did blow it up and out of proportion, however I do also beleive they have a interest in his property considering their plans of expanding. Sometimes a knife has a double edge. You can act friendly upfront, but your words have duel meaning.
Craig Bakers own words taken from his website.
quote: While I was walking these men out, I offered to give them some granite fill, free of charge for their new driveway that they had planned. Then Mr. Fotough said that it was probably a good idea for me to start thinking about packing up my business, along with my family and moving somewhere further out in the country. They felt that a mosque and a marble shop did not go well together. He told me he was from Egypt and his partner was from Pakistan, and that they were bringing many new families in from as far as 5,000 miles away. He went on to say that many of these new people that they would be bringing in would be unfamiliar with many of the local customs, and/or ways of doing things, and that most would not be able to speak English at first.
quote: Kornhauser made the demand that I remove my pigs from my land immediately. Should I fail to do so his client will contact the appropriate authorities and take what ever measures necessary to protect their interest
http://www.americanpigrace.com/Stand.php
Read his site. It stays pretty close to what I saw on the news, and we all know how much the news likes to cater to minorities of race or religion. That is part of the reason why his story is sounding more true to me.0
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