what is it about LDS
lets leave the Dutchman out for a minute
what is it exactly that you disagree with about the LDS's, take your time and give a detailed analogy, not something generic like "their doctrine" break it down we have plenty of time
and please describe why your faith disagrees with it
what is it exactly that you disagree with about the LDS's, take your time and give a detailed analogy, not something generic like "their doctrine" break it down we have plenty of time
and please describe why your faith disagrees with it
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What little knowledege I have is very limited but anyways. They have their own prophet and many deciples. I could care less about that but anyways these past people and present ones control what the rest of the congergation does. One article says no strong drink thus to be at the highest level of a mormon and get higher up in heaven you do not drink coffee, tea, or any form of alcohol. Tip of the ice berg ya.
My faith is there is a god end of story. Moral system of mine most likely comes from my protestant family somthing that is conditioned in my head long ago that I had little control over.
Let me just say this I do not care for an organized religion I think there is a god and that is good enough for me.0 -
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Articles_of_Faith
for those that know nothing of their faith you can read here .
for myself, to each his own, i have fellowshiped with several and they did not try and sway my beliefs nor did i try and sway theirs. they were good people, all i have met.[;)]0 -
Becareful with that wiki stuff. It is not always very reliable. 0 -
Problems that I see with LDS:
(taken from: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm)
1. Source of Authority. Mormonism teaches that the canon of Scripture was not closed when the Bible was completed. They have three sources in addition to the Bible, all of which they believe contain God's revelations -- the Book of Mormon 2 (changed in more than 4,000 places since 1830), Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. However, Mormons follow the teachings of these three books even when they contradict the Bible. For example, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly." Then whenever a Mormon belief contradicts Scripture, the Mormons say that particular part of Scripture is translated incorrectly, and that the correct translation is in one of the Mormon scriptures (The Maze of Mormonism, p. 131). Thereby, the Bible is rejected as the infallible Word of God. [e.g. "The Bible is considered usable, but suspect due to its many errors and missing parts" (Articles of Faith No. 8, Ensign, January 1989, pp. 25, 27).
2. Trinity. Mormonism teaches polytheism (versus monotheism taught in the Bible), believing that the universe is inhabited by many gods who produce spirit children. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie spoke about the Godhead in this way, "Plurality of Gods: Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577).
3. God. In Mormon theology, the god of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self-effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth, and now has a physical, resurrected, glorified body. Mormonism teaches that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives," populate their own planets. (This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about.) Mormon theology, therefore, humanizes God and deifies man.3
4. Christ. Mormonism acknowledges the divinity of Christ, but as noted above, Mormon doctrine on what constitutes divinity falls seriously short of the Biblical standard. Mormonism teaches that Jesus, Lucifer, and all the demons, as well as all mankind, are actually all spirit brothers and sisters, born in the spirit world as spirit babies to our man-god Heavenly Father and his goddess wives. Mormon leaders have consistently taught that God the Father ("Adam-god") had sexual relations on earth with Mary (his own spirit daughter), to produce the physical body of Jesus. Early Mormon apostles also asserted that Christ was a polygamist, and that His wives included Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus) and Mary Magdalene.4
5. Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, a distinction is drawn between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. As LDS Apostle Marion G. Romney stated: "The Holy Ghost is a person, a spirit, the third member of the Godhead" (Ensign, May 1977, pp. 43-44). The sixth LDS prophet, Joseph F. Smith, explains that the Holy Spirit is not a person but rather an impersonal force: "You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God's intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe" (Mormon Doctrine, McConkie, pp. 752-753).
6. Sin. In Mormon theology, it is not quite clear how the first humans, Adam and Eve, came to live on this earth and received bodies, but somehow they did and began the process of human procreation, whereby bodies are produced for their spirit children. But at the very beginning of the process of human generation, sin entered necessarily. The earthly bodies of Adam and Eve were intended to be immortal tabernacles for their spirits, "but it was necessary for them to possess through mortality and be redeemed through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ that the fullness of life might come." Therefore, they disobeyed God's commands. Since the fall of man was necessary, it became necessary for men to disobey God in order to do His will. Adam's fall, thereby, was a fall "upward."5 Concerning the transmission of sin to Adam's posterity, Mormons take a negative position -- they believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Having rejected the doctrine of the imputation of the guilt of sin, Latter-Day Saints likewise repudiate the transmission of inherent corruption or original sin.
7. Salvation. Mormon theology teaches that the atonement of Christ was essential to our salvation and eternal life with God, but that it is not sufficient. Christ's shed blood on the cross provides for universal resurrection of all people, but does not pay for personal sins; according to Mormonism, only Christ's blood shed in the Garden of Gethsemane atones for personal sin. Besides faith in Christ, complete and permanent repentance of all sin as well as many good works are required.6 Mormonism also teaches that one must be baptized in water to be saved (baptismal regeneration), and that salvation will also be available in the next world for those "missing-out" in this one. Therefore, Mormons avidly pursue genealogy and practice baptism for the dead.7
8. Heaven and Hell. Mormonism teaches that there are three degrees of glory: Celestial (for good Mormons able to cease sinning in this lifetime -- see endnote #6 below), Terrestrial (for good people who do not comply with all the teachings of Mormonism), and Telestial (for those who have lived unclean earthly lives). (See also Mormon Doctrines, p. 348.) Mormonism teaches that there is a hell, but only for the "sons of perdition," a very small number of souls that cannot be redeemed. According to Mormonism, then, the vast majority of mankind will be "saved," though it should be obvious that no one will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. [Blacks used to be totally out of the equation: "Black people are black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence" (Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, p. 21); "The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is nothing compared with that greater handicap. He is not permitted to receive the priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (Elder George E. Richards). In 1978, however, the Mormon Church announced that God had lifted his curse from the African race.]
9. Temple Rituals. A typical temple ceremony would take place as follows: "The ritual began in a small cubicle where we had to strip completely. We then put on 'the shield,' a poncho with a hole for the head, but open on the sides (similar to a hospital gown). We went through a series of 'washings and anointings,' as various parts of our bodies were touched by elderly temple workers who mumbled appropriate incantations over them. Our Mormon underwear, 'the garments,' are said to have powers to protect us from 'the evil one.' It had occult markings, which were so 'sacred' that we were instructed to burn them when the garments wore out. The endowment ceremony mocked all doctrines held to by Biblical Christianity, and Christian pastors were portrayed as servants of Satan. We had to swear many blood oaths, promising we would forfeit our lives if we weren't faithful, or if we revealed any of the secrets revealed to us in the temple ceremonies. We were made to pretend by grotesque gestures to cut our throats, chests, and abdomens, indicating how we would lose our lives. We were never told who would kill us! The inference was, and history testifies to, that it would be the Mormon priesthood." (testimony of a former Mormon.) [Note: The blood oaths and portrayal of Christian pastors were removed in April of 1990, despite the fact that the ordinance was purported to have been given originally by a revelation and was never to be changed.]0 -
I personally don't care one way or the other what others do, but to briefly answer the question from my limited understanding of it......
A youngster in America has a "vision" and he ultimately creates a new religion/belief system, purportedly based on Christianity......Celestial gods by the millions(?), or billions(?) birthing baby spirits. Traveling to earth and other planets and converting or identifying the faithful and entering into a progressive journey to becoming a god themselves, then traveling to other planets and birthing spirit babies and on, and on, and on......
At least that is the general idea as I am aware.
The good part is that the "religion" preaches good moral values and turns out a phenomenal community oriented spirit, at least an LDS community spirit. Good people by and large.
To each his or her own.0 -
[url][/url]http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html
Allow me to also mention that we stand side by side with the Mormons when it comes to many social issues. As a Christian I have no antipathy towards Mormon people in any way. We just have differing understandings and we do not consider them a Christian faith.
C&P my post from the other thread.
I'll address this from a doctrinal position. Mormons believe in countless gods which are scattered throughout the universe and are presiding over many planets and making babies through intercourse with their Celestial Wives. They also believe that God was a mere Mormon man on another planet who achieved godhood through his Mormon piety, and then became the god of this planet. They believe that we are all potentially gods in the making, and that Christ is our brother, being born from the same father god. They believe that a good Mormon man can become the god of his own planet with many celestial brides if he lives life by the LDS standards.
This is one example of the differences is doctrine. Most everything they believe is contrary to what Christians believe. I listen to Glenn Beck during the day on talk radio, he insists that Mormons are Christians. I don't why they would want to be affiliated with us. It no longer lends any type of credence to their claims.
I won't "bash" Dutchman or any Mormon. They, as Americans who are free, have a right to their beliefs. And they do tend to be very nice people. But at the same time, when asked I won't pretend that they are a Christian church when their teaching is contrary to ours in almost every way. This is not just my standard, no Christian denomination officially recognizes Mormons as a Christian faith.0 -
oh so you you guys never read from the actual book of Mormons, and are going on Internet opinions that appear to be somewhat bias
mk 19 the site you quoted from is very questionable
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm
from his own site meet the author
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/about_th.htm
read what he has to say about other forms of cult/Christians, there is allot of well known religions in there, this guy would be right at home here his apparent hatred for any religion that is not his, seems to fit right in
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/
sav99 can you post from their doctrine these beliefs you speak of, here is a link to THEIR own church
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
we can ignore their claim to be followers of jesus for now
anyone else?, appears to be allot of negativity going on without much knowledge or facts to back it up, sorry but it sounds to me like allot of he said she said gossip with out any facts0 -
quote:mk 19 the site you quoted from is very questionable
That was just the first site that popped up on google, the facts are still the same.0 -
quote:Allow me to also mention that we stand side by side with the Mormons when it comes to many social issues. As a Christian I have no antipathy towards Mormon people in any way. We just have differing understandings and we do not consider them a Christian faith.
quote:I won't "bash" Dutchman or any Mormon. They, as Americans who are free, have a right to their beliefs. And they do tend to be very nice people. But at the same time, when asked I won't pretend that they are a Christian church when their teaching is contrary to ours in almost every way. This is not just my standard, no Christian denomination officially recognizes Mormons as a Christian faith.
Well said Sav...
Most Mormons that I've met have been good, moral people.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
lets leave the Dutchman out for a minute
what is it exactly that you disagree with about the LDS's, take your time and give a detailed analogy, not something generic like "their doctrine" break it down we have plenty of time
and please describe why your faith disagrees with it
I'm not an educated man, so reading the Bible was a lot of reading for me. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (The Mormons) have an extra book to read.0 -
Most Mormans don't know the inner workings of Mormanism. 0 -
LDS is an American religion with it's roots right here in the good old USA and was founded by a New York farm boy, not some city kid or foreigner. Because of this and their more or less offical preparations for a SHTF scenario I'm surprised Mormonisim it is not the offical Gun Broker choice for religion. 0 -
I do not have a problem at all with Mormon people and have Mormon friends.
That said here is Bible verse that could include Joseph Smith.
The Apostles said they could not preach anything other than the Gospel than what they had preached.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kristov
LDS is an American religion with it's roots right here in the good old USA and was founded by a New York farm boy, not some city kid or foreigner. Because of this and their more or less offical preparations for a SHTF scenario I'm surprised Mormonisim it is not the offical Gun Broker choice for religion.
What you say is true. Just too many books. [;)] [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
oh so you you guys never read from the actual book of Mormons, and are going on Internet opinions that appear to be somewhat bias
sav99 can you post from their doctrine these beliefs you speak of, here is a link to THEIR own church
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
1. Plan of Salvation
Premortal Life Before we were born on the earth, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father's other spirit children.
Gospel Library > Gospel Topics
You searched for celestial marriage in Gospel Topics.
1. Temples
Another temple ordinance is celestial marriage. See also Covenant; Family History Work and Genealogy; Marriage; Ordinances; Plan of Salvation -See True to the Faith (2004), 170-74
Gospel Library > Gospel Topics
They are somewhat vague in their doctrine at this point.0 -
Hit the nail right on the head, 1911a1. Contempt pryor to investigation hinders spiritual growth. Investigation is not "Because so-and-so says so."
There has been controversy since the Christian movement started in the South of France (about 300 years before Catholosism), yet the message remains the same. "Live as I have lived" Jesus taught, and lived, by example.
OK, I have one (or more) pet peeves. Anytime one of these "Religious" discussions start, I wait for someone to point out something specific in the Bible, hasn't happened yet. Bear with me.
When I get a new toy, say a computer, I read the instruction manual. When that manual repeats something over and over, I feel I should probably follow those instructions. Now, in the Bible Jesus says "You can do the things I do if you chose to live the life I lead." Said it 32 times, wonder if he was trying to tell us something.
A.C "Chuck" Ross looked them up, you'll have to see him to get it chapter and verse, I don't remember them (but you wont because he's an Indian)
There is a God you, ain't Him, I ain't Him. He didn't give either one of us the right to judge another human, kept that job to Himself.
I am open to Spiritual discussions all the time, BUT, when we start bashing someone, we're outta line. Spirituality is not religion, rligion is the focusing tool to learn to live a spiritul life. We don't have a secret password to get into Heaven, it doesn't matter what club you belong to, we must live the way He told us to. Period.
Yes, I will rock the boat at times. I would like everyone to think about their connection with the Creator, not your neighbors connection. Look within. If one person can gain a grain of Spiritual awareness from these discussions, it is worth the trip.
www.myspace.com/buffalodancer0 -
quote:Originally posted by raingauge
OK, I have one (or more) pet peeves. Anytime one of these "Religious" discussions start, I wait for someone to point out something specific in the Bible, hasn't happened yet. Bear with me.
awareness from these discussions, it is worth the trip.
www.myspace.com/buffalodancer
Wait no more[8D]
quote:Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
And I am not seeing the bashing that you refer to.
God did give humanity the Word and in the end that is what everyone will be judged by.0 -
Quotes from raingauge:
There has been controversy since the Christian movement started in the South of France (about 300 years before Catholicism)
This Christian movement in the South of France was around 97 A.D. then?
I was not aware of this movement in France in the year 97. Heck, I didn't know there was a France at that time. Indeed I do have more investigating to do.
MVP, you stole my verse that I was going to post. Thats O.K. I would of had to look it up. [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by 320090T
Most Mormans don't know the inner workings of Mormanism.
and most christians do not understand the full context of the teachings of christ. how many actually follow and keep his covenants by which he will know you and it will be a sign between you and him. how many even know what they are? they are in the bible, list them for me0 -
Bashing may have been a harsh word on my part. When Christians deny each other, it troubles me.
The Indians knew, and know, who Jesus is. His stories were not written down, just an oral history. We believe He is the Son of God, he taught the people how to live/worship. We hold with Rule no. 1, thou shalt put no other God before me. Hi son teaches that.
The phrase "Wakan Tanka" used by the Lakota, encompasses the Creator, his Son, and those spirits/angels with the Creator. It is interpreted as "The Great Mystery" Every year we have many people come to some of our sacred ceremonies to convert, or condemn. We didn't have a written word, so we don't measure up.
OK, maybe I'm venting in a place I shouldn't, but
I was raised Christian, When a "call" came to look at another "path" there are years of prayer, fasting and prayer, asking the Creator "What do you want me to do? As in, Thy Will be done. One thing a person learns, belief in Jesus is Paramount. Going to church no more makes a Christian than standing in the garage makes you a car. Our Faith, and how we live, makes a Christian. Not even being involved in a certain club ensures our return to God. Religion is of the mind, Spirituality is of the heart, the Written word is trying to teach us that. He will look into our hearts.
For fun, the Lakota still use the word spirit to refer to angels. Angel is a corruption of a Greek word that means spirit, but them Injuns don't know Greek0 -
And here are a few more....
"....and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS" Jude 3b.
If it wasn't part of the faith once delivered unto the saints, it isn't gospel. After all, it is God who determines what is, and what isn't. And the book of Mormon isn't.
And yeah, I've read it from cover to cover, and found it to be, uh, strange and at best, a poor attempt at trying to mimic biblical language (in New York? in the 1800's?) and syntax.
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto by His Son...." Hebrews 1:1-2a.
God spoke unto the fathers (of Israel) through and by the prophets. We find that codified in the Old testament. He speaks to us today through His Son, Jesus Christ. This is codified in the New testament. Jesus even prophesied of this forthcoming New testament and promised to guide the writers in their memories and experiences, in John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Jesus was intimately involved in bringing forth the New testament, and other gospels are explicitly denounced by Paul, in Galatians chapter one, as has been correctly noted.
And it is the word by which we will be judged, "And if any man hear not my words, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:47-48.
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46.
If you're Christian, you accept the Word of God. You don't add to it, for those who add to the prophecies will find the plagues written in the prophecies added to themselves, "....If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life...." Revelation 22:18b-19b
By the way, that is said in the last four verses in the entire bible.
Sahagan0 -
Would I lie ??
Doug0 -
Sidenote: was it wrong to deny Utah territory statehood until the Mormons abolished polygamy? Was the US out-of-line on this issue? Joe 0 -
Mormonism is a religion. Christianity is a relationship.
Religions practice doctrine and ceremonies.
A relationship with Christ is personal. Christians live as Christ lived.0 -
SAV99, I will have to dig out the historical resources on the Christian movement beginning in the south of France. The Church of England's roots come from that movement. Even the Catholics will admit the Church of England is far older than their way. Constantines Sword is a fair source of some of the beginnings of the Christian movement. Anyhow, all of the Christian factions today have their roots in one of those two paths.
France and England were not the names of those countries, but I'm still curious why the name became the Church of England.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer. I have found the study of religions fascinating, it has shaped most countries in one way , or another. I tend to look more for similarities in paths, than in the differences.
I suppose I am guilty of trying to get people to do more research, look into their hearts, learn more about His way.
When a person has come to know God, in their heart, you will know when others have come to know Him. You know, when you come out of a Church, and that pastor/preacher/bishop/whatever says "Do you believe?" You will know if he really does, and it's disturbing how many have it in their head, not the heart.0 -
quote:Mk 19:
That was just the first site that popped up on google, the facts are still the same.
THAT'S a silly thing to say - Dogpile definitely has better facts than Google.
... some of you guys are so simplistic about the more involved and intricate facts of thousands and thousands of years of world theology - Dogpile, Benjamin, Dogpile ... THAT'S the KEY to the FUTURE.
Even the guys on other gun forums know THAT!
[:D]0 -
quote:quote:
Mk 19:
That was just the first site that popped up on google, the facts are still the same.
THAT'S a silly thing to say - Dogpile definitely has better facts than Google.
... some of you guys are so simplistic about the more involved and intricate facts of thousands and thousands of years of world theology - Dogpile, Benjamin, Dogpile ... THAT'S the KEY to the FUTURE.
Even the guys on other gun forums know THAT!
Yes Scott, I now understand the error of my ways, it will be dogpile from now on0 -
i think and hope i made my point, i find it very unchristian like, and very distasteful to condemn another mans religion, especially when you are not as educated about as you think, and a even bigger lesson that this is coming from me A NON BELIEVER, as i stated many times in the past i respect every ones religion, and not just because it is in the constitution, i just wish more Christians did the same, but every religion ever known all know there is only one god and that is who ever THEY believe, and no one has a right to believe any diferent 0 -
I wouldn't pretend to know the legistics of the Mormon faith, but the Mormons I have known were very good people. To each his own. So long as they are not pushing their beliefs onto others, and not declaring Jihad against anyone, who cares what someone else believes spiritually. 0 -
After 2 minutes of consideration, I have just as much disagreement with the LDS as I do with the Roman Catholic Church. Give me a couple more minutes and I might have a bigger problem with the Pope than Joe Smith. 0
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