Online gun sale controversy
I recently won an auction for a Kimber TLE RL that is brand new. I mailed of payment today and everything was going smooth until I spoke with the FFL I use. Now first off I must say that I am still new to this and have only used him for one previous transaction. I spoke with him and told him of my situation and he began to arrange the paperwork. As I was filling out the paperwork I told him what firearm I had purchased and he pulled the paper work out of my hand. He stated that he was a Kimber dealer and he wasnt going to slit his own throat by accepting delivery of another Kimber sellers business. As I said before I am new to this, and honestly never even thought about his conflict of interest, nor did I know he was a Kimber dealer. So I asked what his pricing would be of the firearm. He stated that it would be $979 and I asked if he did any type of price matching, to which he stated no. I explained that the seller was able to offer it shipped and insured for $944. I also explained to him that I didnt even think of this, and would perfer my money to go to local business (which is why I use his local gun store instead of a much bigger one further away). I apologized and left the store. I later went to the much bigger store and asked them to do the same transaction (I have given this store a lot of business before I knew about the smaller local store. Buying my shotgun, ammo, accessories, range time,....etc.) They stated the same thing, I asked them if they would price match being $100 more expensive than the online sale and they stated no. My question to you all is this, what is more important, to stretch your hard earned money as far as it can go, or to support local business? And should that local business have taken the transaction anyway since they would still be able to collect the FFL transfer fee?
I figured this one might be a good debate for the site.
-Brian
I figured this one might be a good debate for the site.
-Brian
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that the transfer fee is $25. The price of the gun online was $929 and $15 to ship it insured. The first gun stores price was $979 before tax and the second was $1029 before tax. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Raupleminze
Sorry, I forgot to mention that the transfer fee is $25. The price of the gun online was $929 and $15 to ship it insured. The first gun stores price was $979 before tax and the second was $1029 before tax.
so you would save 114.00 give or take a buck Im sorry folks but 100 bucks is a lot of money to some of us around here and if the guy gets ticked at a customer tring to save money then Id say piss off
I use a local dealer for my xfer and if they cant get me the gun for the same price then Ill buy it off line but they know they still will male money as allways from the xfer and the ammo I buy to go along with it. they make money and I save money all is well with both of us.
Taz0 -
quote:Originally posted by Raupleminze
Sorry, I forgot to mention that the transfer fee is $25. The price of the gun online was $929 and $15 to ship it insured. The first gun stores price was $979 before tax and the second was $1029 before tax.
I'm certain that the gun store owners won't like this comment, but I also figure sales tax into the equation. I've never been charged sales tax when buying a gun shipped in from out of state. I'm always charged sales tax buying a gun from a store. In general, the sales tax costs about as much as the shipping and transfer fee. So, including sales tax (6% here in PA), the price for the online gun would be $969 including shipping and the transfer fee. The price at the two stores would be $1,038 and $1,091. Is $69 enough to add the hassle of sending money, sending the FFL copy, waiting for shipment, uncertainty of what you're getting, etc.? I guess that's for everyone to decide for themselves.
What would I do? At the prices mentioned, I'd probably buy it from my local store owner at the lower price, UNLESS I got bad attitude or lousy service while shopping. I've found it more common to be able to save at least $100, even on a $500 gun. My local stores all charge a lot more than stores online or some gunbroker sellers.0 -
Local dealer I help with computer stuff loves transfers almost as much as he loves custom orders (actual cost + 10%, paid in full before ordering) - quick $25 for some paperwork, and who can leave a shop with a new toy without buying a few boxes of ammo, maybe a case/rug, etc. 0 -
I have no qualms about buying stuff at a discount if this means not buying from local sellers all the better, local sellers have to charge sales tax state+city in some cases. Its not that I don't want to support my local businesses its that I don't want to support the tax hungry politicians.
I do most of my shopping online because even after shipping 90% of the time I am saving money, if a business is an ass I won't do business with them again.0 -
Call Northern Ill Shooters Supply in Island Lake.
My advice, In the future try the local dealer first for modern firearms. It's worth the extra few dollars, and after shipping and tranfers it usually works out about the same. We all need to support the local independent gun stores or they won't be around for us.
Good luck0 -
its none of his business what you paid for the gun or what model it is.
he's being paid to transfer the gun.
youre hiring him to do paperwork, not sell you a gun.
personally, id tell him to pack sand and that youll be looking forward to his cleareance sales when he closes his doors for not willing to do e-deals for people. regardless of sales, the TRAFFIC in and out of his store is more VALUABLE than a gun sale. if hes smart he'd known this and set up his store to feed the retail market accordingly.
i/e: if his gun deals are down, pump up e-transfers and stock his shelves with accessories, push ammo, or holsters when an e-deal comes thru. guy pickes up gun, he says, "will we need some ammo for that today?" or, "extra mags sir?"
it doesnt take a rocket scientist to read the writing on the wall. e-gun deals are a reality and gun stores best face it and join the crowd.0 -
quote:Frankly, if all I was saving on a new gun was $30 I'd rather buy from a local guy because I get better service.
This is certainly not true for me. I get MUCH better prices on line even considering transfer fees, if it is not if C&R, and shipping. The transfer ffl I use encourages buying on line if it is not something he can easily match the price on.0 -
"BTW- No FFL is required to do transfers and many don't because it's a fairly low profit deal for them. There's more involved than "5 minutes" as some think. He has to participate in ordering the gun, he has to receive the gun, log it into his book, store it, and then transfer it to you. The FFL earns that transfer fee and such a small amount can't be a main source of income for a stocking dealer."
Well, I agree and disagree with this statement. On one hand I see your point, but on the other hand, when I've ordered things, the dealer did NOT order it, I did- he just received it. I picked it up the same day he got it every time. It seems to me that his 'work' really WAS just signing for the UPS delivery, setting it behind the counter on the floor for a few hours, calling in the background check, entering it in his book, and handing me the gun- whereupon I handed him $20. To me, that is pretty light work for $20. I truly would like to know what I'm missing.
Also, on every one of the transfers, and there have been about 6 in total, I asked him if he could match prices and he always said no, so I bought online instead. Because he's a nice guy he not only is ok with this, he agrees, he'd do the same as a consumer. Perhaps he's just more amenable as I've bought several used guns in his store?
Anyhow, any businessman worth his salt knows that having you IN THE STORE and HAPPY is job number one. Yeah, he might only make $20 on THIS gun but you might come back 10 times for more transfers, or to buy directly from him. Telling you to pi$$ off is just bad business sense.0 -
I worked at a boat shop and I learned this selling outboard motors. If you lower your price with one customer he'll tell all of his friends and you end up haggling and lowering your prices with every customer. So we made good, set prices and never lowered them. Another thing about internet sales they basically take sales away from local dealers by out of the area dealers. because of this the profit margin can be very low. Its gravy money that the out of area dealer would never normally get. These same out of the area dealers would never sell the item out there front doors at that low price. Theirs no excuse for being rude to a customer. If he treated you badly dont go back. 0 -
Yes indeed , this guy is a JERK at best , we do several transfers weekly , and We Do Not Care what (as long as its legal) the transfer is for , we do try and price match and or make a 'deal' when we can , but we still do the SERVICE of doing transfers PERIOD , we also charge a flat fee of $20.00 for each firearm (transfer), its good easy money for the shop ....Guys like this is part of whats wrong with the gun business today ...
Good Luck !!!
d.a.stearns
Gunsmith / LEO
Niota , Tn
P.S. Just find a new 'dealer' to do your transfers (one who wants your business)and keep him busy !!!!!!0 -
I like my gun guy.
His new gun prices are as good as I've seen from anyone but the high volume dealers. If it's a used gun that he doesn't have, he cheerfully does the paperwork and gets his money.
And his front door is half a block from the front door of my office.
That is my situation, your mileage may vary.
The thing about my gun guy (or gun shop, more accurately) is that it's also an old-time store, where the graybeards gather to gossip and swap stories. I've picked up more great advice in that store than I'll ever get from a big volume store.0 -
Thanks for your insight and opinions everybody. I was able to go a town over today and find an FFL who is doing the transfer. I guess I know where I will be going from now on. 0 -
If someone runs a small business, that deals in retail sales of ANY product, the customer is king. You rely on the customer, and you hopefully sell a satisfactory product, that is in demand, and have good service to ensure your customers come back to you, and also spread the word to their friends, drumming up even more business by word of mouth.
If you are a jackass, and think that the customer is there to serve you, and that said customer should shut up, pay out, and be grateful for you giving them the opportunity to shop at your establishment, good luck with your next business venture, because you wont go far in this one.
If he has a "policy" that he follows, it should be conspicuosly posted, so as to avoid problems such as this. He wants your business, you have choices, and would be stupid to not shop around for the best deal, so he has to win you over with either prices, service, superior product, or hopefully, a combination of all 3.
I would write a letter to him, polite of course, detailing the situation as a reminder for him, and then expressing how you felt. Tell him you would like to continue to use him for your firearm needs (ammo, targets, maintenance) but are unsure about continuing to do so after the service you recieved. Give him a chance to apologize and make it up to you. Be the bigger person, be polite and respectful. You're both adults, and hopefully, if you respond as one, professionally, he'll respond in kind. If not, then you are better off going somewhere else, period.0 -
I have watched this post for a few days and I think the guy should have done the transfer.
He could have metioned that he was a Kimber dealer and would be happy to try to work with you to get your business on any new Kimbers in the future.
If he had done transfers for you in the 'recent" past, it seems reasonable to think he would do another. I usually call my FFL and check with him before closing a deal, but it would not prevent me from taking advantage of what I thought was a bargain if I got the chance.
I think he hurt his business more by refusing you. He can set his rules anyway he likes. He can do a pecentage like 5 percent of sale with a $20 minimum or something like that or just charge a flat rate fee like most others do. An expensive gun is no more work for him than a cheap one, but if he is losing sales, he could raise his fee. There is still the possibility that if it gets too expensive, you will go somewhere else even for the tranfer.
I just think if you have bought there in the past, he would have wanted to keep you happy. The small gun shops around here often don't have much of a selection and the closest "bigger" shop is about 40 miles or more away from here.
In my opinion, he lost a lot more than the $20 bucks he would have made on the trasfer, he lost a customer.
I seldom pass a gun shop that sells used guns without stopping in to peek at their racks but I hardly ever buy a new gun unless it is something I have been looking for and is on sale or a "markdown". But most of the shops around here know I won't waste their time. If I make an offer on a gun and they accept, I will plunk down the money and go home with it. But I also enjoy talking with the guys as much as the next guy or even more so, but when a customer strolls up, I get out of the way so they can earn their living.
I think it is a sign of the times, that gun dealers will need to recognize that internet sales of guns are not going to go away. I think all of us benefit from guns being available. As internet sales get more popular, it will be interesting to see what happens to the price of guns. Will they go up as more people start to buy online or will they even out or even start to decline as the buyers also start selling their seldom used guns to others online.
I think there will always be room for the stocking dealers. There were gun stores earning a good living before 1968 when the GCA68 made dealer licensing necessary. I would like to see it get back that way once again. It would be nice to pick up the local sears catalog and call them to get a new gun. I was too young to do that the first time around.0 -
FFL's do NOT have to sell a firearm to anyone they choose not to. The tax question was answered a while back and you would have been responsible for paying it. As to what he should have done, that is entirely up to him. 0 -
I have removed posts not relevant to the subject of the thread. I have left posts in which members state dissenting opinions. It does seem that the question has been answered.
I do transfers, and gladly, but then again, I don't depend on gun sales to keep the lights on. However, it does seem to me that if a dealer advertises that he does transfers, he needs to do the transfer. Or, maybe he could advertise that he does transfers, except Kimbers.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Raupleminze
... He stated that he was a Kimber dealer and he wasnt going to slit his own throat by accepting delivery of another Kimber sellers business. As I said before I am new to this, and honestly never even thought about his conflict of interest, nor did I know he was a Kimber dealer. ...
And should that local business have taken the transaction anyway since they would still be able to collect the FFL transfer fee?
Well since it is his business I would say he can when to sell (or not) his goods/services whenever he wants. If he chooses to not do transfers, or only on Mondays, thats his choice. However having said that, I would think about looking for another FFL if they were getting too flaky about doing what you want.
I am not, nor have I ever been a FFL but to me handling a transfer seems like you walked in and gave them 25 bucks (or whatever). They didn't have to deal with you, answer questions, or otherwise waste time on you just make a couple calls, fill out a few forms, and collect money. Yea ok whatever price they set probably isn't a lot, but the more times you visit for whatever reason, the more likely you are to buy stuff. Its like buying milk, bread, candy at the corner station... went there for Gas and decided I wanted some _____ so I got it there instead of going to the supermarket.
quote:My question to you all is this, what is more important, to stretch your hard earned money as far as it can go, or to support local business?
If you want me to spend your money [:D], I would say you should try to be loyal to the businesses that are good to you. This not mean you are always tied to them, or they can rape you at will. It means that they can make a resonable (reasonable being whatever you think resonable is) mark up in exchange for whatever benefit they provide you. Personally I have not been impressed with the local shops I've been to. They're not rude, just as helpful as they were I have to figure answers out 'myself', or wait twenty minutes for them to get off the phone before they'll open the case [B)]. The last few firearms I bought were either on a C&R license, or at the local gun show that comes threw 4-5 times a year. When I attend the show can you guess which tables I check out first? The ones I've bought from before [^].0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I have removed posts not relevant to the subject of the thread. I have left posts in which members state dissenting opinions. It does seem that the question has been answered.
I do transfers, and gladly, but then again, I don't depend on gun sales to keep the lights on. However, it does seem to me that if a dealer advertises that he does transfers, he needs to do the transfer. Or, maybe he could advertise that he does transfers, except Kimbers.
Thanks for clearing it up Nunn........0
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