Online gun sale controversy
I recently won an auction for a Kimber TLE RL that is brand new. I mailed of payment today and everything was going smooth until I spoke with the FFL I use. Now first off I must say that I am still new to this and have only used him for one previous transaction. I spoke with him and told him of my situation and he began to arrange the paperwork. As I was filling out the paperwork I told him what firearm I had purchased and he pulled the paper work out of my hand. He stated that he was a Kimber dealer and he wasnt going to slit his own throat by accepting delivery of another Kimber sellers business. As I said before I am new to this, and honestly never even thought about his conflict of interest, nor did I know he was a Kimber dealer. So I asked what his pricing would be of the firearm. He stated that it would be $979 and I asked if he did any type of price matching, to which he stated no. I explained that the seller was able to offer it shipped and insured for $944. I also explained to him that I didnt even think of this, and would perfer my money to go to local business (which is why I use his local gun store instead of a much bigger one further away). I apologized and left the store. I later went to the much bigger store and asked them to do the same transaction (I have given this store a lot of business before I knew about the smaller local store. Buying my shotgun, ammo, accessories, range time,....etc.) They stated the same thing, I asked them if they would price match being $100 more expensive than the online sale and they stated no. My question to you all is this, what is more important, to stretch your hard earned money as far as it can go, or to support local business? And should that local business have taken the transaction anyway since they would still be able to collect the FFL transfer fee?
I figured this one might be a good debate for the site.
-Brian
I figured this one might be a good debate for the site.
-Brian
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I give the FFL I use first shot at supplying a firearm, and will pay him a little bit more for the weapon if necessary. He charges $ 20.00 for a transfer, and usually after everything is said and done, there is no real monetary advantage to buying it online if he can get it for me. 0 -
IMO it shouldn't matter a whit to the store owner what gun you are having transferred. You are paying him for his services.
The "find an ffl" link here shows several dealers in and near McHenry, good luck.0 -
I try to use my local guy,.......but he knows that I am a price shopper, and that some items he will not be able to beat.
He welcomes me having them shipped to him, and collecting 20 bucks for basically doing nothing.
I DO have a longstanding business relationship, with the guy though.
Bad situation on your end,.....sorry. Simply find another FFL, there are plenty like mine out there![;)]0 -
I have no loyalty to any gun shops around. They are all cut throat and jackasses. I make it a point to buy offline unless I run across a good deal since most of the folks I deal with on gunbroker don't have the huge superiority complex the local jackasses have. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Henry0Reilly
IMO it shouldn't matter a whit to the store owner what gun you are having transferred. You are paying him for his services.
The "find an ffl" link here shows several dealers in and near McHenry, good luck.
I must 100% agree...Dude is out the fee and he wouldn't have made the sale anyway.. silly guy!!!0 -
he is a dick, esp if he wont even price match. you saved on the tax too
tell him if he is in danger of losing the rest of you business0 -
Isn't it illegal for an FFL to refuse transfer for any reason other than denied NICS or some other legal issue?
Apparently not or I can't find it, but I swear I saw some rule or regulation saying that FFL can't a transfer if requested unless it's purchaser of a firearms is denied on Federal or state level.
Add: yeah, that wouldn't make much sense.0 -
I also completly agree with what Henry0Reilly said.
Either the guy offers a tranfer sertvice or he doesn't.
For him to say he can change his service anyday or for any reason
I would not consider him an upfront businessman.
Either he has a service and charges a set fee or he is a flake.0 -
I simply wouldn't do business with the guy anymore.
You gave him a chance to earn $20 for ten minutes paperwork and a phone call. . .he turned it down.
You gave him a chance to make a sale on a pistol. . .he turned that down too.0 -
He is a jerk,.....plain and simple.
Firearms, are by and large, a low margin business today. You need volume, plus ammo, accessories sales, to make it,.......or to live in an area with a bunch of nitwits for customers.
" starting to arrange the paperwork ",........bogus!
He fills out the transfer form, and you fill out the NICS form. The FFL logs it into his books,.......done deal!
Once again, find another FFL.[;)]0 -
Many storefront dealers, maybe even most, prefer to make the mark-up on a gun rather than take $20-$30 for a transfer. I think any reasonable person can understand this since that store and the sales he makes are his livelihood. The gun sales pay his expenses and put food on his family's table yet some people seem anxious to begrudge him a living to save $30 on a gun that costs nearly $1,000. What are you saving, a little less than 3%?
You violated rule #1 in Internet gun buying. Make sure you have an FFL lined up who is OK with the transfer. Don't blame him for his policies, blame yourself for not making sure you were good to go on the transfer.
Frankly, if all I was saving on a new gun was $30 I'd rather buy from a local guy because I get better service. But if you want to really skin that flint that badly, then make sure you have an agreeable FFL on board before buying. Pawn shops and non-stocking ("kitchen table") dealers are a good bet because they don't rely on new gun sales to stay alive. The storefront dealer does.
BTW- No FFL is required to do transfers and many don't because it's a fairly low profit deal for them. There's more involved than "5 minutes" as some think. He has to participate in ordering the gun, he has to receive the gun, log it into his book, store it, and then transfer it to you. The FFL earns that transfer fee and such a small amount can't be a main source of income for a stocking dealer.
For used guns or guns they don't routinely sell or stock many FFLs will transfer but it's pretty rude to ask a Kimber dealer to shuck himself out of sale just so that you can save $30. I'd be a little insulted if you came into my shop and wanted me to earn less so you could save some money. Do you ask your doctor to cut his fee? The auto mechanic? You can always ask but do you insult them when they refuse?
You are free to haggle, but don't slam the guy when he is firm on his price. He's set his prices to pay his expenses and ensure his own survival and you can buy from him or go elsewhere. That's the free market system at work.
That's just my opinion. But put yourself in the dealer's shoes before you flame him. He's running a business, not a service. He's there to make money, not save you a few bucks. As the consumer you are free to shop where you wish, but I think it unfair to criticize the dealer for trying to stay in business.0 -
If he has no notice in his store that he is an AUTHORIZED KIMBER dealer then he is a horses patut, How are you supposed to know??
I would stop buying from him and tell him why.
Price match or "close" is fine; being a jerk by refusing the transfer is DUMB BUSINESS.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SaxonPig
That's just my opinion. But put yourself in the dealer's shoes before you flame him. He's running a business, not a service. He's there to make money, not save you a few bucks. As the consumer you are free to shop where you wish, but I think it unfair to criticize the dealer for trying to stay in business.
I am not sure I understand that statement.
If part of your business is that you offer a firearm transfer service then you should honour a customers request to have a transfer made regardless of the type of firearm as long as it is legal.
There are local shops around here that charge a flat fee and then a percentage of the sale price.
If you want a 1000.00 firearm and the fee is 5% of the sale price, the dealer would collect 50.000 -
This dealer don't want or need money. He turned down $20 for a 10 min transfer. I would never darked his doorway again. 0 -
Find you another FFL and work with him. Tell this one to kiss your sitter and don't do anymore business with him.
What a fool. You usually only sell a gun once but look at all the other stuff he is now missing out on, ammo, holster, knives, Tee shirt.0 -
what aj said. he is being a jerk. maybe he did not sell you the gun, but is missing the chance to sell you ammo, targets, holsters, cleaning gear, ad infinitum. find another ffl. 0 -
i would think him selling you some ammo would be where he could have made some money. 0 -
I have one shop in my area that I refuse to go to now b/c of the lack of service they provide. Everything from getting ticked when I asked them to look up a price on a gun to ignoring me for 30 minutes while conducting personal calls on the phone. I don't understand "businessmen" like that. As far as the transfer goes, it seems that Raupleminze new the guy did transfers (like he was supposed to), the store owner never stated in the beginning he would only do transfers on guns that were not Kimber. Get a new FFL and do not give this guy any of your hard-earned money. 0 -
I have no loyalty toward the shops around here, since they all charge WAAY too much. They'll sometimes be 20% higher on a given gun than the same one on gunbroker (yes, twenty percent). 0 -
Several years ago when I lived in San Antonio, I bought a gun off EBAY, yes, that many years ago. There was (IS) a gunshop THE POWDERHORN not too far from where I lived and I really liked to go in and look around and even spend a little money.
After I bought the gun, a Russan Nagant, I asked the manager if he would handle the paperwork. I got blessed out for about 15 minutes and talked to like I was in grammar school. I was in the military at that time and anyone talking to me that way would normally be the very wrong thing to do, but since that was the first gun I had bought online, I really didn't have a clue what was going on.
I left and called a local pawn shop and the nice guy said "hell yes, just come on down".
Moral of this story, I have NEVER been back to THE POWERHORN nor will I ever darken their door. I have a little more disposal cash now and occasionally visit my son in San Antonio but they have lost my business forever. Don't know if I would have ever bought anything more from them, but who knows?? Tom0 -
quote:Originally posted by SaxonPig
That's just my opinion. But put yourself in the dealer's shoes before you flame him. He's running a business, not a service. He's there to make money, not save you a few bucks. As the consumer you are free to shop where you wish, but I think it unfair to criticize the dealer for trying to stay in business.
So, according to your philosophy, we, the meek, should all be somehow greatfull to this man because he's running a business?
Think of it this way: by not doing a simple transfer he lost a customer and maybe a few more. Oh well, the more people run their business like this guy does, more business it is to me.0 -
For new guns, I'd go with my local dealer. It's much less of a hassle, and I believe in shoping local and with small businessmen. For used, you really need to weigh it all out.
For example, SOG sells P6 sigs for like $320.00. I can't recall if there is a shipping charge, but I'll need an FFL, and that will cost $20-30.00. So, I'm at $350.00 anyway, plus whatever tax I have to pay.
Now, Gander mountain sells the same guns for $350.00. Am I any worse off or better off?
If I was the FFL dealer, I'd do the transaction. I'd get $20-$20 cash, I'd show the gun food and holsters, and maybe hook the guy as a long term client.0 -
I am happy to see that this topic has created so much discussion. To respond to Saxon Pigs post, I would just like to state that I through out this entire ordeal have tried to put myself in that mans shoes. I even felt a little guilty for possibly "insulting" him. However, I am new to this and as I stated was unaware of him being a Kimber dealer. That is probably the reason I should have spoken with him before the purchase. Unfortunately I assumed that giving him my business last time for a transfer meant that this time would not be a problem. I do agree with this man "running a business, not a service", but isnt the first rule of running a successful business customer service? Just think of all of the add on sales his business will know miss out, i.e. case, ammo , cleaning kit, targets. Or the opportunity to build customer loyalty, because unfortunately in my future gun purchases I will probably not consider him as a viable contact. 0 -
quote:I will probably not consider him as a viable contact. Precisely. He blew it! Long term, wish him luck on the "putting food on his families table" issue, he's gonna need it.
quote:tccox Posted - 08/14/2007 : 9:51:47 PM
Several years ago when I lived in San Antonio, I bought a gun off EBAY, yes, that many years ago. There was (IS) a gunshop THE POWDERHORN not too far from where I lived and I really liked to go in and look around and even spend a little money.
After I bought the gun, a Russan Nagant, I asked the manager if he would handle the paperwork. I got blessed out for about 15 minutes and talked to like I was in grammar school. I was in the military at that time and anyone talking to me that way would normally be the very wrong thing to do, but since that was the first gun I had bought online, I really didn't have a clue what was going on.
I left and called a local pawn shop and the nice guy said "hell yes, just come on down".
Moral of this story, I have NEVER been back to THE POWERHORN nor will I ever darken their door. I have a little more disposal cash now and occasionally visit my son in San Antonio but they have lost my business forever. Don't know if I would have ever bought anything more from them, but who knows?? Tom
You should go back in there, pick up the most expensive gun they have, haggle a deal, and then explain to them why you're NOT buying it!0 -
MVP - Gun shops are in the business of selling guns. Transfers are a side-line at best and don't make a lot of money despite what a lot of folks (who are not FFL stocking dealers, you'll note) are saying.
I was an FFL dealer for 9 years and I can assure all of you that a transfer involves more than 10 minutes of time and doing them means not making a whole lot per hour. A home dealer (like I was) can do transfers and get by. A storefront dealer paying rent, utilities, employee salaries, etc often can't justify doing a transfer for a gun he sells in his store. Rag on him all you want but that's the reality.
The bottom line is that it's his store to run as he sees fit. You don't pay his bills or know his needs so you are not in a position to decide how he should run his shop.
BTW- He was rude if he yanked the paper from your hand as you described. He could have been polite about explaining his position on transferring guns he sells.
Wizard 78- As I said, I was an FFL dealer for 9 years. Does this qualify me to comment or do you believe I am unfit to express any opinion on anything? Do you not have something better to do than throw insults at me? I know you hate me, but that does not give you the right to insult me. You are violating several posting guidelines with your continuing insults.0 -
Saxon,
This guy is pretty small time I dont think he has any employees, atleast none that I have seen. And as I stated before I do understand his need to pay bills and earn a living. However I do believe he would have made out pretty good with the accessory sales and the transfer fee.
I also have another interesting point. Does anybody think this would have been as big of an issue with the store owner if it was a $200 Remington 870 vs. a $900 + Kimber?0 -
Give this guy the finger.
I hate gun dealers with that condescending, holier-than-thou attitude - especially when they're wrong. This guy could have made $20 of pure profit for 10 minutes of paperwork and a phonecall. Not to mention, the chance to upsell accessories, ammo, or what have you.
Make no mistake, you owe no loyalty to local gun dealers. They are trying to get YOUR business, not the other way around. If you aren't treated with dignity and respect, you should make it a point not to shop at this guy's store ever again.0 -
Thanks for all of the replies guys............ 0 -
eh. If it was me I'd just find a way to make the transfer as cheaply and conveniently as possible. Next transfer, I'd do the same thing. If this guy proved inconvenient enough times I'd stop trying. Till then....he's convenient, whether or not I think he's screwing himself out of $20 easy bucks. 0 -
I would be REALLY happy, if I was running a gun shop, and it was SO BUSY that I didn't feel the need to collect a transfer fee. (You didn't state how much he charged)
Most gun shops that i go into, the owner/salesman is NOT running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Matter of fact, MANY times I'm the only one in the store when I go in, and they have to get up from their desk to help me. They are usually looking at the latest gun rag, or something similar. WOW wouldn't want to keep him from that, by making a transfer fee. Hard choice here, look at magazine (make NO money) do a transfer. (make SOME money)
Hmmmmmm.......
Does it really matter if it takes 10 minutes or 30 minutes? The thing that potentially takes the most time, is the phone call. I have a headset that I use AT HOME, when I'm on the phone, and especially when I think I'll be put on hold. Geeee, I'm guess for some, it's REALLY hard to listen for someone on the phone while your doing something else. You can make the phone call AT YOUR CONVENIENCE, the buyer doesn't even have to be there.
It's his choice to do the transfer or not, but the money is in RETURN customers. You can't sell them accessories or guns, if they won't come back to your shop. I had an FFL and a little shop for years. That is what I counted on, and where I made money, RETURN BUSINESS. He is cutting his own throat by alienating you. There are gun shops going out of business all the time. Many because of this kind of attitude. Others are being forced out by the BATF. This makes the anti-gunners VERY happy.
Now to the point of your other question. Concerning the $35 difference in price. With the online sale, you have to add the shipping charges and the transfer fee. (again, you didn't say how much either was) I have seen shipping charges of $35 or more, and heard of transfer fees or $50 or more regularly. Some FFLs charge sales tax on the price of the gun, when doing transfers for online sales, does yours?
With the local sale, you would have to add just the sales tax. Figure out the "total" cost of each. If the total was only a few dollars different, AND I had a good relationship with the local shop owner, I'd buy from him, and give him the few extra dollars. Turn about is fair play, while he is trying to establish a relationship with you as a buyer, you should be trying to establish a relationship with him as a seller.
I feel the same way about this, as I do about my mechanic. While I "COULD" go to town and buy tires a little cheaper than he sells them for (and he know this) I pay him the extra money, partly to build a good relationship, partly for my convenience. I also know that when I have something break on one of my vehicles, and I need it fixed "right away" he will make the extra effort to fix it. Sometimes this means he has to quit working on someone else's vehicle. He also gives me "special deals" once in a while. The last set of tires that he put on the car, was half the price of what they would have been in town. He had had them on the rack for quite a while, and "discounted" them quite a bit.
Gun dealers can do the same kind of thing. They can give you "first choice" on a gun that they get in, that you may have mentioned that you were looking for. Or they may have something in the back, that they would pull out for you, if you mentioned it, and have a good working relationship with them. You'll never know with this guy since you "probably" won`t be back in his shop.0
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