Gunman Shoots Two Unarmed Officers
What is the point of Unarmed Officers? Only in NY.......
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/16/nyc.shootout.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/16/nyc.shootout.ap/index.html
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They weren't rent-a-cops, they were volunteer auxiliary NYC cops.SAME_SAME they werent on duty.= rent for whatever cops, glory? 0 -
[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]for bashing cops in general FROG
quote:Originally posted by PC800
quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
Read the post[}:)] RENT_A_COPS,
Cops in this county are heavly armed,12ga ten shot shotguns-Ar-15s and trusty 9mm. And trained to use them[}:)]
They weren't rent-a-cops, they were volunteer auxiliary NYC cops.
[/quote]0 -
tigerclaw, the police really are the "thin blue line" that separates civilization from the savages.
I worked with police on a daily basis when I was an EMT for 13 years. I know most of the cops to be dedicated to their jobs. They are underpaid, and they do risk their lives for civilians. Sure, there are some mediocre cops, just as there are mediocre EMTs and doctors.
Sorry about your bad experiences. Your negative attitude and your bad expectations have a lot to do with your experiences with cops.
The day may come for you when a policeman risks his life to save yours. With the attitude you have, even if this occurs you will not appreciate it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by PC800 Originally posted by SLING BLADE
Not on duty,it clearly states, (rent-a-cops)
You must be seeing things, they are not rent-a-cops. From the article: Auxiliary officers are civilians who conduct patrols wearing uniforms nearly identical to regular police.
Auxiliary cops are not rent-a-cops, rent-a-cops are paid security guards. Auxiliary cops serve their depts honorably just like volunteer firefighters do. Volunteer firefighters make up 70% of all American firefighters. When one of them get killed in the line of duty, do you disparage them also?
Volunteer firemen get to carry fire hoses just like paid firemen.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
tigerclaw, the police really are the "thin blue line" that separates civilization from the savages.
I worked with police on a daily basis when I was an EMT for 13 years. I know most of the cops to be dedicated to their jobs. They are underpaid, and they do risk their lives for civilians. Sure, there are some mediocre cops, just as there are mediocre EMTs and doctors.
Sorry about your bad experiences. Your negative attitude and your bad expectations have a lot to do with your experiences with cops.
The day may come for you when a policeman risks his life to save yours. With the attitude you have, even if this occurs you will not appreciate it.
Tigerclaw does make valid points. I think a lot of posters just don't like having a foreigner point out the shortcommings of American cops.
Allen, I seriously doubt cops are underpaid. They have no trouble filling their ranks and in fact, if danger is the reason to make money, roofers, electricians, and firemen should probably be entitled to more than the average cop.
Cops may be nessisary in our society because of the weak sisters/911 dialers, and the functional illiterate morons walking loose that depend on others for their survival, but I would prefer anarchy to a police state.
Since Tigerclaw is from Eastern Europe, he knows first hand what it is not to have freedom. How many of his lily white detractors can claim that?0 -
wow they stated semiautomatic weapons, in the article, I'm surprised they didn't say automatic 0 -
Ok. Let me enlighten some of you on few issues.
1) I came to USA in 1991 and let me tell you that it changed DRASTICLY since that time, and basically it is turning into the same police state that USSR was. Been there, done that.
2) I have yet to see an underfed, hungry and underpaid policeman.
3) I have yet to see a skinny policeman.
4) Sure they have no problem filling their ranks. You get a chance to act tough, to bully people and carry a GUN!!!. You get to retire early, you eat at any place for free and when you are hungry you put on a ciren and race to a local dive to eat "for free". You get great benefits. Plenty of incentives to join. You can compensate for all your psychological shorcommings.
5) allen griggs: I have nothing but respect for paramedics and fireman. They actually save lives and do their jobs. I can't say the same for policemen. I have properties in Deerfield, Palatine and Buffalo Grove, I keep tabs on what is going on there. The ammount of drugs in school in both of those towns tell me plenty about just how good the police there are in everything else besides writing parking tickets.
If my kid (once I have one), will be going to a drug infested school, I want to know what the hell is police doing, and what am I paying them for? If my property price in Palatine went down because 25% of the neighbourhood don't speak english and about a third of them are illegals, I want to know what the hell is police doing and what am I paying them for. (they are paid by MY property taxes)
Should a police man save my life, or even help me, I will bow before him with respect and gratitude. However, for now, they can't even get drugs away from local schools, they sure can bust in in armor and rifles and throw the kids against the wall and search them. Yeah, thats a mark of a free society and brave police. The police can't arrest illegal gun dealers (who endanger MY gun rights), but they sure seem to be good at giving speeding tickets. I understand that police is a business and must bring income to the town/country or whatever, but can't they do anything useful besides giving speeding and parking tickets? How come when I drove old beaten up Centra, the police would harras the hell out of me in Deerfield, and as soon as I got myself an New Camry the harrasing stopped? "So, officer, how black was I driving?" No, I am not black, so I guess I should say "So, officer, how not-rich-enough was I driving?"
6) I also started my life in USA in a rather nasty neighbourhood, I saw how police treat people there, just because those people are not rich enough. I am greatfull to the destiny that I had a chance to live in both Americas, black one and white one. Trust me, when your friend gets shot "by mistake" by an officer and the officer is not punished, it will give you a definite impression of the police in general. Yeah, Kieth is black, yeah, he was wearing a baggy clothes, yeah everyone joked about me and him being friends (me, a metalhead, and him, a rapper, both of us liked Ice T, though). We are still friends, he is married and has kids, and I see how police eye them when they come to hang out with me and my wife in Lake Zurich. 'nuff said.
Honestly, between a police state where megacorporations rule and a police state where ideology rules, I would take the ideology. I would also preffere anarchy to a police state. Frankly, I consider Norway and Sweden and Finaland a models of society. Sweden made a huge mistake, letting arab immigrants in. Then again, entire europe made that mistake, and they are paying for it now and this is only the beginning. Other then that, I consider those countries a model to be imitated: several political parties, direct vote, government medicine, colleges which are free, but you have to get into them and pass entrance exams, finland has very lax gun control laws. Very low crime (proportional to the number of immigants in the country).
That's what I stand for.0 -
"City officials said the two auxiliary officers, the first to die in the line of duty since 1993, would get full police honors at their funerals."
These volunteers obviously only provide a False Sense of security and take jobs away from real cops (The volunteer program is an excuse to downsize the full-time force).0 -
Uhh, I am quite sure that the guys do not really care what kind of honors are they given. I am also sure that their parents and loved ones also do not care. There was a crime commited. People died. I would love to see investigation leading to arrest and conviction of a guy who supplied the gun to the shooter. To the full extend of the law.
Seriously, do you really think that "full honors" and other crap will make up to the parents for the loss of their son?0 -
Actually, there is a tremendous amount of this having the good guys unarmed than many of us realize. My feeling is that if someone is a good enough person to carry a gun while working to try and protect society, then they are good enough to carry that gun when they are not working. But whether it be full time police, part-time police, volunteer police, arms qualified security officers, military, etc. there are many cases and many places where as the liberal nannies have been able to disarm such people just because they punch the time-clock and are no longer working.
The liberal thinking behind all this that I dispise, is that apparently, accorording to the liberals, you only need on-duty personnel in order to come save you if you need help. In addition, their thinking is that you don't need to carry a gun with you when you are not working as a "trained professional" apparently because you can predict when you will need your gun. Therefore you can just leave your gun at home until you need to go get it to stop someone from attacking your or your family while on an outing.0 -
My point is that the city is too cheap to make them Full-Time Cops to begin with, It's kinda like a slap in the face now. Whoever designed this volunteer officer program needs to be held acountable. Giving the guys the responsibility but no authority is kinda pointless. 0 -
Thank you
SB
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
My point is that the city is too cheap to make them Full-Time Cops to begin with, It's kinda like a slap in the face now. Whoever designed this volunteer officer program needs to be held acountable. Giving the guys the responsibility but no authority is kinda pointless.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
They weren't rent-a-cops, they were volunteer auxiliary NYC cops.SAME_SAME they werent on duty.= rent for whatever cops, glory?0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
My point is that the city is too cheap to make them Full-Time Cops to begin with, It's kinda like a slap in the face now. Whoever designed this volunteer officer program needs to be held acountable. Giving the guys the responsibility but no authority is kinda pointless.
You are absolutely right. And putting someone in uniform and/or a position to whereas they are supposed to protect the public and having them unarmed is doing nothing more than making them a walking, talking target and unable to protect the public.
But as you mention, it is a rather inexpensive way of putting uniforms out there and making the public at least "feel" they are being made a little safer. But many of us known better.
Kinda like taking a uniform to a gun fight.0 -
Who in their right mind goes into battle with no weapon, only a shield?
Any time you go into a confrontation with someone, it's best to have sufficent resources to make sure you come out on top.
Whomever came up with the unarmed cop corps bears a measure of responsibility for this.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
My point is that the city is too cheap to make them Full-Time Cops to begin with, It's kinda like a slap in the face now. Whoever designed this volunteer officer program needs to be held acountable. Giving the guys the responsibility but no authority is kinda pointless.
You are absolutely right. And putting someone in uniform and/or a position to whereas they are supposed to protect the public and having them unarmed is doing nothing more than making them a walking, talking target and unable to protect the public.
But as you mention, it is a rather inexpensive way of putting uniforms out there and making the public at least "feel" they are being made a little safer. But many of us known better.
Kinda like taking a uniform to a gun fight.
That is not their job. They don't have to respond to emergency calls. Their job is to be the eyes and ears for the cops.
Taken from the article:
Kelly said the city's nearly 4,500 auxiliary officers are not required to respond to emergency calls, but often serve as the "eyes and ears" of the police force.0 -
You only have to be 17 years old to join the NYC Auxiliary Police and these Auxiliaries only get ~50 hours of training. I'm sorry, but that is insane. Either tighten the restrictions to join and send them to some kind of REAL academy, or don't give them badges and uniforms. Giving some kid a police uniform and a badge when his training consists of a CPR class and a little bit of handcuff training is grossly irresponisble. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
My point is that the city is too cheap to make them Full-Time Cops to begin with, It's kinda like a slap in the face now. Whoever designed this volunteer officer program needs to be held acountable. Giving the guys the responsibility but no authority is kinda pointless.
You are absolutely right. And putting someone in uniform and/or a position to whereas they are supposed to protect the public and having them unarmed is doing nothing more than making them a walking, talking target and unable to protect the public.
But as you mention, it is a rather inexpensive way of putting uniforms out there and making the public at least "feel" they are being made a little safer. But many of us known better.
Kinda like taking a uniform to a gun fight.
That is not their job. They don't have to respond to emergency calls. Their job is to be the eyes and ears for the cops.
Taken from the article:
Kelly said the city's nearly 4,500 auxiliary officers are not required to respond to emergency calls, but often serve as the "eyes and ears" of the police force.
If anyone wants to "try and help/serve the public and/or the safety of society" and choses to appear in public wearing any kind of uniform that makes them look like a cop, the violent criminals will not look upon such people as only the "eyes and ears" of the police force. Such criminals will instead look upon such uniformed people as cops, period. Or worse, as helpless targets for the criminals to easily take some hate and aggression out on.
Besides, no one needs to wear a "looks like a cop" uniform just to function as "eyes and ears". Hell, you can do that wearing street clothes. Probably do it even better than wearing a uniform.0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
You only have to be 17 years old to join the NYC Auxiliary Police and these Auxiliaries only get ~50 hours of training. I'm sorry, but that is insane. Either tighten the restrictions to join and send them to some kind of REAL academy, or don't give them badges and uniforms. Giving some kid a police uniform and a badge when his training consists of a CPR class and a little bit of handcuff training is grossly irresponisble.
There is one Sheriff's Office here in Virginia, that I know of personally, that has ARMED reserve deputy sheriffs with arrest powers. And they get less than 50 hours of training. And all they have to do to be armed is to qualify on the range. I was there once watching them qualify and I can tell you, it scared me. They were allowed to try over and over until they passed.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Tigerclaw_x
I would love to see investigation leading to arrest and conviction of a guy who supplied the gun to the shooter. To the full extend of the law.
So now the guy that sold the guns is a criminal? They were probably bought legally. It is not the responsibility of the seller to determine the mental state of the buyer. He fills out the necessary paperwork and does the required checks. After that it is up to the buyer to maintain the law.0 -
quote:Originally posted by PC800
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
You only have to be 17 years old to join the NYC Auxiliary Police and these Auxiliaries only get ~50 hours of training. I'm sorry, but that is insane. Either tighten the restrictions to join and send them to some kind of REAL academy, or don't give them badges and uniforms. Giving some kid a police uniform and a badge when his training consists of a CPR class and a little bit of handcuff training is grossly irresponisble.
There is one Sheriff's Office here in Virginia, that I know of personally, that has ARMED reserve deputy sheriffs with arrest powers. And they get less than 50 hours of training. And all they have to do to be armed is to qualify on the range. I was there once watching them qualify and I can tell you, it scared me. They were allowed to try over and over until they passed.
I'm really surprised to hear that. I know the reserve programs in the Hampton Roads area are very intensive, the reserves get the same training at the reserve academy as at the full-time academy and have to get state-certified like every other cop. I've always thought that Virginia had excellent training standards for their reserves to make sure they were equal to full-time officers. Which area of Virginia is this?
I used to be in the Reserves in another state and we got over ~150 hours of training but I still felt underprepared, we were armed and did have police powers but we didn't have police powers while off-duty (although we could carry off-duty using our carry permits) and our duties were limited to mostly small potatoes type of stuff (festivals, parades, large public events, special assignments, etc). But thankfully we were armed and did got a lot more training than these poor NYC Auxiliaries and the stuff we didn't get in the Reserve Academy was offered to us as in-service training (i.e. defensive training against a knife-wielding suspect, how to defend yourself while on the ground, etc) so we got the chance to at least meet the same level of training as the full-time guys.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Tigerclaw_x
Yes, I am from Eastern Europe. As far as me "being a problem", well. Lets see, as I said I clawed my way from the "hood", I never been arrested, I never been under suspicion and the biggest crime I commited was.... a speeding ticket.
As far as me going back home... I have no home. My country no longer exists. I have nowhere to return to. And if I though that it would make US police better, I would go back home in an instance. But no matter if I go home, cops ain't gonna get smarter, leaner, less corrupt and less of a jack booted SS thugs.
Incident with Keith didn't involve me. I wasn't the one who got shot.
Oh, BTW, when two guys were getting rather fresh with a girl, where was the brave police? Probably eating doughnuts for free in a local Dunkin Doughnuts, as if cops aint lardasses to begin with. They were nowhere to be found. I had to do THEIR job of protecting a citizen, and I was the one who got handcuffed for my trouble.
And if the law is passed about some gun ban, guess who will come after you and your guns without ANY sympathy for you? Yup, the cops.
The reason I have a gun at home is that I can get to it before I can get a cop to patrol the neighbourhood at night.
Eastern Europe? So your a PILGRIM.0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by PC800
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
You only have to be 17 years old to join the NYC Auxiliary Police and these Auxiliaries only get ~50 hours of training. I'm sorry, but that is insane. Either tighten the restrictions to join and send them to some kind of REAL academy, or don't give them badges and uniforms. Giving some kid a police uniform and a badge when his training consists of a CPR class and a little bit of handcuff training is grossly irresponisble.
There is one Sheriff's Office here in Virginia, that I know of personally, that has ARMED reserve deputy sheriffs with arrest powers. And they get less than 50 hours of training. And all they have to do to be armed is to qualify on the range. I was there once watching them qualify and I can tell you, it scared me. They were allowed to try over and over until they passed.
I'm really surprised to hear that. I know the reserve programs in the Hampton Roads area are very intensive, the reserves get the same training at the reserve academy as at the full-time academy and have to get state-certified like every other cop. I've always thought that Virginia had excellent training standards for their reserves to make sure they were equal to full-time officers. Which area of Virginia is this?
I used to be in the Reserves in another state and we got over ~150 hours of training but I still felt underprepared, we were armed and did have police powers but we didn't have police powers while off-duty (although we could carry off-duty using our carry permits) and our duties were limited to mostly small potatoes type of stuff (festivals, parades, large public events, special assignments, etc). But thankfully we were armed and did got a lot more training than these poor NYC Auxiliaries and the stuff we didn't get in the Reserve Academy was offered to us as in-service training (i.e. defensive training against a knife-wielding suspect, how to defend yourself while on the ground, etc) so we got the chance to at least meet the same level of training as the full-time guys.
In red above. Interesting comments. In my training, done by the Feds (I am just a lowly security officer) our training told us and showed that if the knife-wielder knows what he is doing, there IS NO UNARMED defense. But I am guessing you were referring to defense using a baton, tazer or better yet, your firearm. In other words, the only defense from a knife weilder who knows what he is doing is to keep distance between him and you and try to use your own weapon to stop or kill him.
Also, another interesting observation about "defending yourself while on the ground". At one time, LEOs (yeah, and security officers) were taught that, if necessary, take the fight to the ground. We are now taught that is a bad idea and avoid going to the ground at all costs. And if you do find yourself on the ground, get back up.
Any observations of your own? or anyone else? I would be interested to hear.0 -
"Ok. Let me enlighten some of you on few issues.
1) I came to USA in 1991 and let me tell you that it changed DRASTICLY since that time, and basically it is turning into the same police state that USSR was. Been there, done that.
2) I have yet to see an underfed, hungry and underpaid policeman.
3) I have yet to see a skinny policeman.
4) Sure they have no problem filling their ranks. You get a chance to act tough, to bully people and carry a GUN!!!. You get to retire early, you eat at any place for free and when you are hungry you put on a ciren and race to a local dive to eat "for free". You get great benefits. Plenty of incentives to join. You can compensate for all your psychological shorcommings.
5) allen griggs: I have nothing but respect for paramedics and fireman. They actually save lives and do their jobs. I can't say the same for policemen. I have properties in Deerfield, Palatine and Buffalo Grove, I keep tabs on what is going on there. The ammount of drugs in school in both of those towns tell me plenty about just how good the police there are in everything else besides writing parking tickets."
"Incident with Keith didn't involve me. I wasn't the one who got shot.
Oh, BTW, when two guys were getting rather fresh with a girl, where was the brave police? Probably eating doughnuts for free in a local Dunkin Doughnuts, as if cops aint lardasses to begin with. They were nowhere to be found. I had to do THEIR job of protecting a citizen, and I was the one who got handcuffed for my trouble."
Tigerclaw, I'm pretty sure that you are a moron.
1)If you think things are so horrible here, go back where you came from.
2and3)You have no idea what the situation is like for police officers. In contrast to what you believe, most of them are underpaid. In many states, law enforcement officers get paid between $32 and $38 thousand a year. You made the comment that you make $50 thousand a year. Compared to you, cops sure as hell are under paid... and they put their lives on the line daily. What do you do to earn that? Sit in front of a computer screen playing solitaire all day, and maybe answer the phone? I'm sure that you are probably not as skinny as you should be. And for all you know, they may have a high percentage of muscle as opposed to body fat, because they are robust. Many law enforcment agencies have strict guidelines about physical fitness, such as so much body fat percentage.
4) Officers are not paid to bully people. They are paid to serve and protect. If you don't like how the police act, contact the attorney general of your state, and I am sure that an investigation will be done. Don't just sit there and whine about it. Would you rather have unarmed cops? I carry a gun daily. So what? They are also required to be properly trained before they can carry a firearm. Duh. They deserve to retire early. They deal with idiots like you on a daily basis. Departments usually have guidelines about what they can or can not receive as a gift from people, especially while in uniform. Don't believe me? Call any department in the U.S. and ask for yourself before you go running your mouth. If a person has "psychological shortcomings" that will be decided by the psychiatrist and review board before and during the officer's employment. Departments don't go about hiring a bunch of whacko's without reviewing them.
5)Yes, paramedics and firemen save lives daily. My dad served for twentysomething years until he retired in 2001 at the rank of chief. Police men don't save lives? I think you have some "psychological shortcomings" that you mentioned in your list. Here in Ohio, many of the first people to respond to accidents/house fires/etc. are cops, and they perform first aid, cpr, and sometimes emergency extraction from a burning vehicle/house where there is an occupant. Let's see if you can HONESTLY say that cops don't save lives now. If there is a problem with drugs in schools, the cops are not to blame. The school board, superintendent, principals, teachers, and PARENTS are more able to take care of that problem than cops who can not be there 24 hours to watch over every person who walks through the school doors. If you have drug problems on your properties, maybe you should hire guards from a security firm to patrol the grounds. After all, they would probably do a better job than the fat bully cops. Right?
So, all cops are lard asses? They must be, after all, you just said that they are. If cops are not around, you call them useless. If they are around, you call them useless. Huh. I'm sure that they must have been at Dunkin Doughnuts, and not assisting at a crime scene, or possibly doing a vehicle search of a car that is being used to smuggle drugs, or directing traffic at an accident scene. You know what, Tigerclaw, I think you are 100% right. Cops are useless. This thread just looks like another place for you to gripe about something. Shut up already.
I'm sorry if I have posted something that my fellow posters are offended by. And the where I say cops are useless, I meant that in no way. It was said with extreme sarcasm. Have a good day[:I]0 -
In red above. Interesting comments. In my training, done by the Feds (I am just a lowly security officer) our training told us and showed that if the knife-wielder knows what he is doing, there IS NO UNARMED defense. But I am guessing you were referring to defense using a baton, tazer or better yet, your firearm. In other words, the only defense from a knife weilder who knows what he is doing is to keep distance between him and you and try to use your own weapon to stop or kill him.
Also, another interesting observation about "defending yourself while on the ground". At one time, LEOs (yeah, and security officers) were taught that, if necessary, take the fight to the ground. We are now taught that is a bad idea and avoid going to the ground at all costs. And if you do find yourself on the ground, get back up.
Any observations of your own? or anyone else? I would be interested to hear.
[/quote]
You can train for unarmed defense against knives, you just have to accept that you are probably going to get cut. But getting cut is much better than getting dead. Of course, staying away from the guy is best but you can't do that all the time. As for ground fighting, many fights do end up on the ground, so you should know how to fight from there. As for trying to get back up, yes and no. If you can finish it on the ground, finish it. Getting back up will force you to break contact and also allow the bad guy to regroup. Your call on that one.0 -
There is one Sheriff's Office here in Virginia, that I know of personally, that has ARMED reserve deputy sheriffs with arrest powers. And they get less than 50 hours of training. And all they have to do to be armed is to qualify on the range. I was there once watching them qualify and I can tell you, it scared me. They were allowed to try over and over until they passed.
[/quote]
I'm really surprised to hear that. I know the reserve programs in the Hampton Roads area are very intensive, the reserves get the same training at the reserve academy as at the full-time academy and have to get state-certified like every other cop. I've always thought that Virginia had excellent training standards for their reserves to make sure they were equal to full-time officers. Which area of Virginia is this?
I used to be in the Reserves in another state and we got over ~150 hours of training but I still felt underprepared, we were armed and did have police powers but we didn't have police powers while off-duty (although we could carry off-duty using our carry permits) and our duties were limited to mostly small potatoes type of stuff (festivals, parades, large public events, special assignments, etc). But thankfully we were armed and did got a lot more training than these poor NYC Auxiliaries and the stuff we didn't get in the Reserve Academy was offered to us as in-service training (i.e. defensive training against a knife-wielding suspect, how to defend yourself while on the ground, etc) so we got the chance to at least meet the same level of training as the full-time guys.
[/quote]
Let's just say that it is a Northern Virginia Sheriff's Dept. I am a former full time cop and was a reserve Deputy on the reserve unit of this Sheriff's Dept, for about 3 months. Until I saw how poorly trained the majority of them were, as none of them had prior police training. When I joined, the LT qualified me on the range by myself, since the others were not due. Then 3 months later we all qual'd. There was one guy to the right of me shooting a revolver using a cheap nylon holster and using a fanny pack to carry his speed loaders and he was shaking badly the entire time. Honestly I thought he was going to shoot me in the side, as he kept turning the muzzle toward me while reloading. Then there was a woman that had obviously only shot her semi once before, she could barely even get it loaded. A full time deputy had to stand right along side her and talk her through every step. Her gun belt was not secured with belt keepers and it would turn clear around to her middle every time she tried to draw, it was pathetic. And there were others like that. I actually left the line and waited to qual with the full timers. Even what they allowed the full timers to do was surprising. At the 3 yard line they were allowed to unsnap their holsters and grip the gun, before the timer blew, so they could have enough time to draw and fire the 2 shots in 2 seconds. I asked the LT why they allowed them to do that, and he said if they didn't most of them would not make the time and thus not qual. When I commented that they would not be able to walk around like that waiting to have to draw, he just sort of sighed and said "What can you do, they won't practice?" A big problem with Northern Virginia is that there is no part time, extended format academy up here. And Virginia will not allow people to enroll themselves into an academy anyway, you must be sponsored by an agency. (Many other states allow a person to self enroll. In fact in some states, like FL, it is virtually required to be an academy grad before even applying to most depts, so you must self enroll. Most of these academies are run at community colleges, so you get college credit also.) So in Northern VA, there is really no way for a non-prior police person to get adequately trained if the dept won't do it on their own time.0
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