Are we really anti-immigration people,
or do we want immigration to be done in a proper and legal way as it should be done. I for one believe I am not anti immmigration. Just want it done according to our laws. Same as gun laws, drivers liscence
laws and the likes. Seems like our elected officials dont think the same way as us "common folks" anymore. Atleast like 85 percent of the populaton want the illegals GONE. Cant help but wonder what they dont
understand about our wishes. Also, no "official" has stated why deportation cant be accomplished and kept up. Any ideas guys?
laws and the likes. Seems like our elected officials dont think the same way as us "common folks" anymore. Atleast like 85 percent of the populaton want the illegals GONE. Cant help but wonder what they dont
understand about our wishes. Also, no "official" has stated why deportation cant be accomplished and kept up. Any ideas guys?
0
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Trying to be able to replace our own workforce and to be able to pay for the Social Security obligations we have already incurred is not even the faintest bit related to a "One World Government". It just says that we can't meet the obligations we already have with the workforce in the current pipeline.
We don't have enough internal labor force to do it - that's economic and demographic reality. It has absolutely nothing to do with some political program or agenda. Politics and economics are not the same thing, though they often interact.0 -
LT, I don't want to fight with you about this, but I am going to flat out tell you that for the next several years we simply cannot get away with a totally shut down immigration program and zero growth, unless you wish to drastically reduce the average standard of living for the people of this country.
Trust me on this one, Economics is what I do and I'm an extreme conservative, but you can't change reality just because you don't like it. I don't like many portions of it either, but I will insist to you that my generation, the Baby Boomer's, have done an absolutely pathetic job of preparing for retirement, and there are huge numbers of us. We're going to suck the resources dry unless we can get enough people out there to foot the bill for the obligations already in place, and that's if we can stop things like some form of national health care program - and I think that one is coming regardless.
I'm not happy about it, and I sure don't advocate it, but we can't avoid some of these things regardless of how much we might like to find a different outcome.[:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
Trying to be able to replace our own workforce and to be able to pay for the Social Security obligations we have already incurred is not even the faintest bit related to a "One World Government". It just says that we can't meet the obligations we already have with the workforce in the current pipeline.
We don't have enough internal labor force to do it - that's economic and demographic reality. It has absolutely nothing to do with some political program or agenda. Politics and economics are not the same thing, though they often interact.
I was not referring to "one world government". I was referring to the mad rush into globalism. As to the Social Security obligations we have foisted on the American People, I think we all can see where that is headed.
Is it time to reexamine the future, particularly related to Social Security? I fully expect that come retirement age for me, we will be bankrupt as a nation, or so beholden to foreign nations for covering our debt, that we are finished as a sovereign nation, unless we change course.
The option you paint, to keep from defaulting, is to absolutely change the face and future of America, through mass immigration.
No thanks. I'd opt to downsize and realign finances to take care of what we have. I go back to my earlier statement of not being all things to all people, particularly around the globe.
How about we cut the massive and ridiculous spending domestically and drastically cut foreign aid/foreign programs, beyond what is truly necessary.
Face it, we have an out-of-control fed, particularly in the spending and commitments areas.
Lets get our own house in order, before we fling the doors open to more of the world.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
LT, I don't want to fight with you about this, but I am going to flat out tell you that for the next several years we simply cannot get away with a totally shut down immigration program and zero growth, unless you wish to drastically reduce the average standard of living for the people of this country.
Trust me on this one, Economics is what I do and I'm an extreme conservative, but you can't change reality just because you don't like it. I don't like many portions of it either, but I will insist to you that my generation, the Baby Boomer's, have done an absolutely pathetic job of preparing for retirement, and there are huge numbers of us. We're going to suck the resources dry unless we can get enough people out there to foot the bill for the obligations already in place, and that's if we can stop things like some form of national health care program - and I think that one is coming regardless.
I'm not happy about it, and I sure don't advocate it, but we can't avoid some of these things regardless of how much we might like to find a different outcome.[:)]
dlrjj
No problems. I am enjoying the debate.
I admit that I have a "different" view on many issues and that I come from a mainly philosophical perspective. I am certainly no economist, nor do I pretend to have expertise in that area.
I do, however, have the firm opinion that we are in severe need of some major, hard-line decisions in America, about immigration, spending, entitlement programs and our seriousness about the US Constitution, or we are finished as a republic.
It will only be a matter of time IMO, if we don't have the balls to make the tough calls. For the record, I don't think we have the balls to do what we need to do and that we are on the long slippery slope to the fall of this republic, like all great republics have fallen throughout history.0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
I do, however, have the firm opinion that we are in severe need of some major, hard-line decisions in America, about immigration, spending, entitlement programs and our seriousness about the US Constitution, or we are finished as a republic.
No one but a complete fool would argue with that statement in the least LT. There are going to have to be many hard decisions made over the next several decades, and the sooner we begin to make some of the hard calls, the better off we will be.
I also question whether we have the political will to make the corrections while there is still time to do it without drastic corrections. If what I have seen of the financial courage of my generation is typical, we are in for a rough time about fifteen to twenty years down the road - and that's if world conditions don't force use into problems several years earlier.
That is not a doom and gloom projection and the problems can be avoided to a great degree, but we have to have the willingness to begin to correct the problems, and I see little inclination to do that yet. I don't really believe that the doom and gloom predictions have to come true, but that doesn't mean that they can't.
The corrections will come eventually, but how deep does the boat have to sink before we start bailing?[:)]
I'll catch you tomorrow on the rest of this, but it's 1 AM here, and I've got to meet some people in the morning to go over their financial books for them.
I'm supposed to have been retired for three years now, but can't seem to stop working at something - maybe I just enjoy it.
Later.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
You don't have a clue, do you.
Those programs are overpriced and, in some cases, abused - and they're one of the main reasons that we haven't had a depression since the thirties.
Could you elaborate a bit on that? How does redistribution of wealth system protect the country from economic problems?
I think you're missing one huge point there in history that it's not welfare and all these programs but central banking system that creates credit and prints money on that credit hence inflating national debt and so on. But I'd like to hear an explanation how does socialistic programs safe the economy from having economic problems.0 -
quote:Originally posted by thesneakyrussian
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
You don't have a clue, do you.
Those programs are overpriced and, in some cases, abused - and they're one of the main reasons that we haven't had a depression since the thirties.
Could you elaborate a bit on that? How does redistribution of wealth system protect the country from economic problems?
I think you're missing one huge point there in history that it's not welfare and all these programs but central banking system that creates credit and prints money on that credit hence inflating national debt and so on. But I'd like to hear an explanation how does socialistic programs safe the economy from having economic problems.
I'll get to this tomorrow, but you have missed some salient points of the concept.
Think insurance, not Socialism, and you'll begin to understand the basics.
The extremes are a disaster.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by thesneakyrussian
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
You don't have a clue, do you.
Those programs are overpriced and, in some cases, abused - and they're one of the main reasons that we haven't had a depression since the thirties.
Could you elaborate a bit on that? How does redistribution of wealth system protect the country from economic problems?
I think you're missing one huge point there in history that it's not welfare and all these programs but central banking system that creates credit and prints money on that credit hence inflating national debt and so on. But I'd like to hear an explanation how does socialistic programs safe the economy from having economic problems.
I'll get to this tomorrow, but you have missed some salient points of the concept.
Think insurance, not Socialism, and you'll begin to understand the basics.
The extremes are a disaster.
I didn't miss anything, you missed it completely. I HAVE insurance AND I pay for a bunch of freeloaders, just as I pay about $20K a year at least into my retirement fund as well as 12% of my income into SS which I will never see. See what I mean? What exactly did I miss?
What other insurance do I need? I've used government sponsored insurance once out of principle 'cause I've paid into it for about 7 years prior to collecting unemployment, and you know what? I didn't really have to since I had plenty of my own money to live on.
So don't preach please that government provides some sort of insurance. If i were to lose an arm a leg an eye or whatever my work comp will pay for it along with my health and long term disability. I pay for it, I buy it, so explain to me what silent points on insurance am I missing here?
PS. I guess I sound a little too excited, not going to edit but believe me I am not, just a little hungry for nicotine [:p]0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by lt496
I do, however, have the firm opinion that we are in severe need of some major, hard-line decisions in America, about immigration, spending, entitlement programs and our seriousness about the US Constitution, or we are finished as a republic.
No one but a complete fool would argue with that statement in the least LT. There are going to have to be many hard decisions made over the next several decades, and the sooner we begin to make some of the hard calls, the better off we will be.
I also question whether we have the political will to make the corrections while there is still time to do it without drastic corrections. If what I have seen of the financial courage of my generation is typical, we are in for a rough time about fifteen to twenty years down the road - and that's if world conditions don't force use into problems several years earlier.
That is not a doom and gloom projection and the problems can be avoided to a great degree, but we have to have the willingness to begin to correct the problems, and I see little inclination to do that yet. I don't really believe that the doom and gloom predictions have to come true, but that doesn't mean that they can't.
The corrections will come eventually, but how deep does the boat have to sink before we start bailing?[:)]
I'll catch you tomorrow on the rest of this, but it's 1 AM here, and I've got to meet some people in the morning to go over their financial books for them.
I'm supposed to have been retired for three years now, but can't seem to stop working at something - maybe I just enjoy it.
Later.
Yeah, time for me to call it a night also. Lots to do at the office tomorrow.
Good talking with you sir. I enjoyed it.0 -
please ignore my earlier post i can't stand the illegals in my mind there is only one way to stop the illegals and "force" them to come into the country the right way.[}:)]
As i have read some of the other posts like LT's and Dlr's, I can see the need for immigration.
BUT
When (IF) we do get stop from entering illegaly. Then as "legal immigrants" they will have to pay taxes.
Will as many of them be so, willing to come to this country as they are now?
"I think not, sure there are the hard working ones that bust their azz everyday learn the language and are here because it is a better place to live and raise a family than where they came from and most are overall good people that generally enter the country legally. I am talking about the other one's that are here to take advantage of the system."
We will be in the same boat. not enough cheap labor. the only reason they do the jobs that everyones says we won't do. is because they don't have to pay taxes, insurance, SS, and other known costs of living. hell everyone making min. wage would make a good living if they didn't have to pay all that stuff. but that is our reality. controling the boarders is needed muchly, but it will be the end of "Cheap Labor" wages will go up reguardless if we STOP immigration 100% or we get the illegals to come and go legally.
IMO0 -
Illegals aren't the answer to the cheap labor idea. They do help. but there are thousands of unemployed teens and college students during the summer months. Why not put them to work? better then mom and dad paying for everything. Then they might learn a few work ethics and decide having an education is important. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by slipgate
Sorry, call be a bigot, I am all for legal immigration accept for those south of us. I do not want them in this country in any way, shape or form. They are poison, useless and will never be productive, contributing members of our society.
I seriously disagree with your blanket statement. The hardest working men I've worked with were legal immigrants from Mexico. Alot of them bust their ass above and beyond at the workplace. Don't try and claim their stupid either because most I've worked with were smart also.
They come in every weight, shape, and form just like white folks.
I don't have a problem with legal immigration. I do have a problem with illegal aliens. I do have a problem with immigrants legal or illegal not wanting to learn the language.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by slipgate
Sorry, call be a bigot, I am all for legal immigration accept for those south of us. I do not want them in this country in any way, shape or form. They are poison, useless and will never be productive, contributing members of our society.
I seriously disagree with your blanket statement. The hardest working men I've worked with were legal immigrants from Mexico. Alot of them bust their ass above and beyond at the workplace. Don't try and claim their stupid either because most I've worked with were smart also.
They come in every weight, shape, and form just like white folks.
I don't have a problem with legal immigration. I do have a problem with illegal aliens. I do have a problem with immigrants legal or illegal not wanting to learn the language.
I put 90+% in the useless to out society boat. By useless I mean they will never pay enough in taxes to shoulder their burden. Hardworking or not, there is a reason 3rd world nations are 3rd world nations. It is not a reflection on their work ethic but rather a reflection on their lack of desire or ability (take your pick) to do more than menial, unskilled labor.
Since we can't pick and choose the 10% that we allow in, in order to filter out the 90%, it's all or none.
It is a pipe dream to think that a group of people that large will change their generational way of life.0 -
Somebody has to do the unskilled labor. Therefore whoever is doing it is a leech on America? I don't get what you're trying to say as long as we are talking about legal immigrants .
Not sure if my jobs are considered unskilled labor, but I work in the oilfield and that is where I've gotten my exposure to legal immigrants for the most part. I also worked with quite a few legal Mexican immigrants when I was a welder up in Oregon. Are those jobs considered unskilled labor? Just curious as I have no idea what is considered skilled and unskilled labor. Any job takes skills in my opinion, except maybe the one I'm doing now which is probally the most technical I've had, and this is the easiest job I've ever had haha.
Personally I respect a man that gets up everyday and works hard and earns his paycheck no matter what he's doing. Just because someone wears a suit to work doesn't mean crap in my book.0 -
quote:Originally posted by AHansen
Illegals aren't the answer to the cheap labor idea. They do help. but there are thousands of unemployed teens and college students during the summer months. Why not put them to work? better then mom and dad paying for everything. Then they might learn a few work ethics and decide having an education is important.
because they don't have to mommmy and daddy are paying for it. wish they wouldn't. mine didn't, Nor will I.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
Somebody has to do the unskilled labor. Therefore whoever is doing it is a leech on America? I don't get what you're trying to say as long as we are talking about legal immigrants .
Not sure if my jobs are considered unskilled labor, but I work in the oilfield and that is where I've gotten my exposure to legal immigrants for the most part. I also worked with quite a few legal Mexican immigrants when I was a welder up in Oregon. Are those jobs considered unskilled labor? Just curious as I have no idea what is considered skilled and unskilled labor. Any job takes skills in my opinion, except maybe the one I'm doing now which is probally the most technical I've had, and this is the easiest job I've ever had haha.
Personally I respect a man that gets up everyday and works hard and earns his paycheck no matter what he's doing. Just because someone wears a suit to work doesn't mean crap in my book.
We have the right balance of those jobs in this country. If you add 20 million + more, it begins to add up. Someone awhile back posted each citizen's tax burden. For the most part, this group will never get there. So what that means is that you and I will always be footing the bill for them, their children, their children's childrena and so on and so forth.
At some point, most of our citizens reach a point where they will pay in taxes more than their burden in taxes. They are now covering the ones that are not.
This group of people will NEVER pay their fair share at any point in their life.
We are stabalized as a nation to cover those that are not yet able to pay their fair share and those that never will. But to continue to add "never-wills" to our citizenship roles is counter-productive and will result in us turning into a third-world nation.
I am not saying they are not hard workers. I am saying they are not the type of immigrants that we want in our country if you want the US to remain a first world nation. I do have Hispanic friends, and like your friends, they are very hard, honest workers. However, most of them do not have any ambitions to be more than they are.
America was made great not by those that had little ambition, but rather by people not content with simple subsistence.
BTW: Arguably, any job that takes a week to learn the basics of and a month or so to become proficient in is unskilled labor.0 -
I'm against ALL immigration. WHAT?! It's gotta happen SOMEDAY.
Are we gonna wait until the population is 500 million? 750 million?
When? WHEN are we going to say to the rest of the world "you've had centuries to copy the free societies of the world and you've moved ahead about a half inch"? We need to look at other areas of the globe with population problems and act now so we don't have the degree of overcrowding and demand for space and water that they have. It's already here in too many parts of the country. We need
WISE people to have some foresight and other people to LISTEN fercrisake!
When are/is the free world going to hold accountable leaders of third world cat box countries who are educated here, Great Britain
or France and then return home and drive their Mercedes or march their bloated army right past their starving countrymen or worse murder them by the thousands??? That's why I don't have a problem with the USA being in Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or not. The problem I have is the rest of the worlds token coalitionism. ALL of the free world should've trounced that Hussein and turned on that SOB in Darfur too. Dammit, the "right way to live" is pretty broad
that's just not good enough for some of those SOBs. I've always said a dictatorship is the perfect form of government-if you could just get a GOOD one.
We don't need to import expertise or labor. We need to stop (are you listening Chambers of Commerce?) the "growth-developement-new housing starts as a measure of economic health" mentality and work toward healthy STASIS. Fix our society and education system and tell parents it's OK for your kid to not go to college and give value to honest trades and we'll have enough brains and labor.
Ah, what the hell. I'm just a grain of sand in this whole damned mess. Pitty my grandkids though.0 -
quote: If you add 20 million + more
That makes me think you're talking about illegal aliens. I agree those people should be thrown out and not allowed to come back because they broke the law to come here.
There was this Mexican immigrant that I used to work with when I was building completion tools for oilwells. This man was the smartest man I've known. He worked hard and trouble shot every problem we had. Our bosses would not promote him because he had a slight accent. Our crew could understand him fine, but they would not promote him. I guess he was just another stupid Mexican they figured. Even when they depended on his intelligence to push problem tools they would not promote him. Well at least he was smart enough to find another job that gave him a equal chance and he is kicking butt and taking names now.
quote: BTW: Arguably, any job that takes a week to learn the basics of and a month or so to become proficient in is unskilled labor.
With that definition I've done unskilled labor all my life. More then likely I could double your paycheck working offshore in my old "unskilled" job. Now I'm doing another "unskilled" job in the oilfield and make more then my sister that went to college for 6 years for her "skilled" job.
Maybe you should be pissed at the goverment for making taxes be such a burden, after all isn't that a big reason why we beat the hell out of the British to form this country to begin with?0 -
quote:Originally posted by 50-70RB
I'm against ALL immigration. WHAT?! It's gotta happen SOMEDAY.
Are we gonna wait until the population is 500 million? 750 million?
When? WHEN are we going to say to the rest of the world "you've had centuries to copy the free societies of the world and you've moved ahead about a half inch"? We need to look at other areas of the globe with population problems and act now so we don't have the degree of overcrowding and demand for space and water that they have. It's already here in too many parts of the country. We need
WISE people to have some foresight and other people to LISTEN fercrisake!
When are/is the free world going to hold accountable leaders of third world cat box countries who are educated here, Great Britain
or France and then return home and drive their Mercedes or march their bloated army right past their starving countrymen or worse murder them by the thousands??? That's why I don't have a problem with the USA being in Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or not. The problem I have is the rest of the worlds token coalitionism. ALL of the free world should've trounced that Hussein and turned on that SOB in Darfur too. Dammit, the "right way to live" is pretty broad
that's just not good enough for some of those SOBs. I've always said a dictatorship is the perfect form of government-if you could just get a GOOD one.
We don't need to import expertise or labor. We need to stop (are you listening Chambers of Commerce?) the "growth-developement-new housing starts as a measure of economic health" mentality and work toward healthy STASIS. Fix our society and education system and tell parents it's OK for your kid to not go to college and give value to honest trades and we'll have enough brains and labor.
Ah, what the hell. I'm just a grain of sand in this whole damned mess. Pitty my grandkids though.
I don't find much in this post to argue with. In general, It is very much the way I feel and much like what I have tried to explain here in this thread.0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by 50-70RB
I'm against ALL immigration. WHAT?! It's gotta happen SOMEDAY.
Are we gonna wait until the population is 500 million? 750 million?
When? WHEN are we going to say to the rest of the world "you've had centuries to copy the free societies of the world and you've moved ahead about a half inch"? We need to look at other areas of the globe with population problems and act now so we don't have the degree of overcrowding and demand for space and water that they have. It's already here in too many parts of the country. We need
WISE people to have some foresight and other people to LISTEN fercrisake!
When are/is the free world going to hold accountable leaders of third world cat box countries who are educated here, Great Britain
or France and then return home and drive their Mercedes or march their bloated army right past their starving countrymen or worse murder them by the thousands??? That's why I don't have a problem with the USA being in Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or not. The problem I have is the rest of the worlds token coalitionism. ALL of the free world should've trounced that Hussein and turned on that SOB in Darfur too. Dammit, the "right way to live" is pretty broad
that's just not good enough for some of those SOBs. I've always said a dictatorship is the perfect form of government-if you could just get a GOOD one.
We don't need to import expertise or labor. We need to stop (are you listening Chambers of Commerce?) the "growth-developement-new housing starts as a measure of economic health" mentality and work toward healthy STASIS. Fix our society and education system and tell parents it's OK for your kid to not go to college and give value to honest trades and we'll have enough brains and labor.
Ah, what the hell. I'm just a grain of sand in this whole damned mess. Pitty my grandkids though.
I don't find much in this post to argue with. In general, It is very much the way I feel and much like what I have tried to explain here in this thread.
damn straight, m-hmm.0 -
0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote: If you add 20 million + more
That makes me think you're talking about illegal aliens. I agree those people should be thrown out and not allowed to come back because they broke the law to come here.
There was this Mexican immigrant that I used to work with when I was building completion tools for oilwells. This man was the smartest man I've known. He worked hard and trouble shot every problem we had. Our bosses would not promote him because he had a slight accent. Our crew could understand him fine, but they would not promote him. I guess he was just another stupid Mexican they figured. Even when they depended on his intelligence to push problem tools they would not promote him. Well at least he was smart enough to find another job that gave him a equal chance and he is kicking butt and taking names now.
quote: BTW: Arguably, any job that takes a week to learn the basics of and a month or so to become proficient in is unskilled labor.
With that definition I've done unskilled labor all my life. More then likely I could double your paycheck working offshore in my old "unskilled" job. Now I'm doing another "unskilled" job in the oilfield and make more then my sister that went to college for 6 years for her "skilled" job.
Maybe you should be pissed at the goverment for making taxes be such a burden, after all isn't that a big reason why we beat the hell out of the British to form this country to begin with?
Uncle!0
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