Question for anti- abortion people
First let me state right off that I find abortion to be an abomination; it is an act of a person who refuses to accept consequences for her actions and is looking for an easy out (99% of the time anyhow). I also think that it destroys a life.
Buuuuuttt....
If life begins at conception, there is a BIG problem. Nature has let billions die.
Not every fertilized egg implants.
Ergo, millions of lives are snuffed out each year when a fertilized egg fails to implant and just gets menstruated out or otherwise dies. The same folks who are so keen to point out that God imparts a soul at conception seem to have missed this; if the soul is present, then it is life and it is dying (unbaptized I might add).
How to recitfy this dichotomy? Are we to assume that a loving God is saying that some life is unworthy? What of miscarriages then?
All very troubling and confusing, if I do say so.
Buuuuuttt....
If life begins at conception, there is a BIG problem. Nature has let billions die.
Not every fertilized egg implants.
Ergo, millions of lives are snuffed out each year when a fertilized egg fails to implant and just gets menstruated out or otherwise dies. The same folks who are so keen to point out that God imparts a soul at conception seem to have missed this; if the soul is present, then it is life and it is dying (unbaptized I might add).
How to recitfy this dichotomy? Are we to assume that a loving God is saying that some life is unworthy? What of miscarriages then?
All very troubling and confusing, if I do say so.
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You might want to read a good medical description of conception first, then rethink your viewpoint. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by jonk
First let me state right off that I find abortion to be an abomination; it is an act of a person who refuses to accept consequences for her actions and is looking for an easy out (99% of the time anyhow). I also think that it destroys a life.
Buuuuuttt....
If life begins at conception, there is a BIG problem. Nature has let billions die.
Not every fertilized egg implants.
Ergo, millions of lives are snuffed out each year when a fertilized egg fails to implant and just gets menstruated out or otherwise dies. The same folks who are so keen to point out that God imparts a soul at conception seem to have missed this; if the soul is present, then it is life and it is dying (unbaptized I might add).
How to recitfy this dichotomy? Are we to assume that a loving God is saying that some life is unworthy? What of miscarriages then?
All very troubling and confusing, if I do say so.
You could categorize all sickness and disease that leads to death in the same way. Mankind is fallen. The entire human race is fallen...and we are reaping the ramifications of that fact...death. A merciful and mighty God has provided a way back to Him though...through His Son Jesus Christ.0 -
...I think abortion is dead wrong.
eboy quote:If you think that I am going to spend one dollar on some "kid" that I do not want, nor care for, then you are sadly mistaken.
..now THAT's rich! YOU are now paying out the wazoo for a million PLUS abortions every year!
Yet I have no solution to the problem of these twits that take no responsibilty, OR precautions to NOT become pregnant.
I, as many do not have a viable solution to this problem so, as my dad told me, "if you complain about a problem and YOU do not have a solution, it's just biatchin".
So, until there is a viable solution to stop abortions, I will not condem anyone that agrees with it...[;)]
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Remember the that call to action of the late '60's, "Keep The Baby Faith!"
Jonk, you are thinking too much.0 -
Well put; I might add that I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit- I dislike and condemn abortion, but its not an issue I get really worked up about because, bottom line, I don't care about it- or death really. 2 million dead in Africa of some civil unrest mess? Oh. Too bad. I mean it IS, but I don't get worked up over it either.
Yes, mankind is fallen, if you believe in such things, and yes, God provided a way to Him in this system; but to be eligible you need to be baptized or else (at best) you go to Limbo (so say the Catholics anyhow- personally that always bugged me- a baby is about as innocent as you get.)0 -
quote:Originally posted by eboydell
If you think that I am going to spend one dollar on some "kid" that I do not want, nor care for, then you are sadly mistaken. All of my extra money either goes to guns , cars, or other toys that I desire. If the girl wants the "kid",LET HER RAISE IT! As far as all of this foolishness as to when life begins...well we kill enough real people everyday in some form or fashion to more than make up for some abortions. So grow up...life usually sucks; stop crying for the "unborn"!
There is a fair chance you will get some cute young lady knocked up before you grow up. After you discuss this with her lawyer, give us the updated version. [:D] [:D] [:D]0 -
I think abortion is wrong in almost every case.
Abortion is also none of the Federal Gub'Ments business.
It is clearly a States Rights issue; Roe vs. Wade is bad law.
I don't know when God imparts a soul, I am too busy worrying about mine. I don't know how God looks at abortion; I suspect he aint real happy about it.
An abortion is between a woman her doctor and her conscience. God will have his say later.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jonk
Well put; I might add that I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit- I dislike and condemn abortion, but its not an issue I get really worked up about because, bottom line, I don't care about it- or death really. 2 million dead in Africa of some civil unrest mess? Oh. Too bad. I mean it IS, but I don't get worked up over it either.
Yes, mankind is fallen, if you believe in such things, and yes, God provided a way to Him in this system; but to be eligible you need to be baptized or else (at best) you go to Limbo (so say the Catholics anyhow- personally that always bugged me- a baby is about as innocent as you get.)
Baptism plays absolutely no part in Salvation. It's merely a public declaration/demonstration of one's faith.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
I think abortion is wrong in almost every case.
Abortion is also none of the Federal Gub'Ments business.
It is clearly a States Rights issue; Roe vs. Wade is bad law.
I don't know when God imparts a soul, I am too busy worrying about mine. I don't know how God looks at abortion; I suspect he aint real happy about it.
An abortion is between a woman her doctor and her conscience. God will have his say later.
The Word of God says that God knew us before we were in the womb...this would lead me to believe our souls are implanted at the very moment of conception.0 -
I'd say it doesn't matter at what moment God breathes life into us.
I'd also say that your argument is a strawman argument -- you set something up to beat it down when it really isn't part of the argument at all.
1. All innocent life is precious.
2. Babies in the womb are innocent life.
3. God can choose to take innocent life at any time and for whatever reason He deems fit. That's why He earns the big bucks and you and I don't.
4. Man should not be taking innocent life.0 -
bpost - I am curious as to why you think the Father, who is financially responsible for the child, should not be involved in the decision to have or abort the child??
This is a very important concept to Free Men.
D.
* edited to correct spelling0 -
life begins in heaven. the baby was Gods property. man ruined the babies right to life on earth as God willed it by refusing it to mature. 0 -
I think you people missed a HUGE factor in this discussion!
What about rape cases?
What about incest cases?
Do you expect these girls/women to have a reminder of this horrible act GROWING INSIDE THEM for 9 months?!?!?
I am AGAINST abortion UNLESS it is rape and/or incest OR the pregnancy puts the mothers life in jeopardy some how. Even then it is between a woman and her doctor, not politicians and the woman.0 -
As a poor Ba$tard myself, I am thankful that my Mother had the courage to Carry and Birth me. Thank You Mom!
I've heard that many women actually regret their abortions.
And, despite the drive-thru accessability, there are dangers involved for the mother.
You mention nature, but it is surely unatural to stick a roto-router into woman and chop up and vacuum out an unborn child, and that is what is happening...
If you live to be older and wiser you will realize that children are a blessing. But it may be too late by than[}:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by 300Win_Mag
I think you people missed a HUGE factor in this discussion!
What about rape cases?
What about incest cases?
Do you expect these girls/women to have a reminder of this horrible act GROWING INSIDE THEM for 9 months?!?!?
I am AGAINST abortion UNLESS it is rape and/or incest OR the pregnancy puts the mothers life in jeopardy some how. Even then it is between a woman and her doctor, not politicians and the woman.
Yes, I do.
Again, the baby growing inside the mother is innocent life. The fact that the baby came from an incestuous relationship or a criminal action (rape) doesn't transfer evil or blame to the innocent child.
That sounds vicious on the surface, but dammit, killing an innocent baby is at least just as vicious as making a mother carry it. If the mother doesn't want the child, she should put the child up for adoption. Despite rumor to the contrary, there are plenty of people who are desperate to adopt (and this is proven by the fact of people going to other countries to find babies to adopt).
The mother's life in danger is honestly a crock of crap. Yes, there are instances where the mother's life is truly in danger. I'm pretty sure the Bible states (I'd have to do a search, it has been many, many, many years since I've seen the passage) that if the mother's life is in danger, that the baby should be torn from the womb in order to save her life.
What I mean by a crock of crap, however, is that the mother's life being in "danger" is quite subjective. You'll have people who will say, "Well, that teenager's father will kill her if he finds out," which theoretically puts the girl's life in danger, right? But, it isn't the baby that puts her life in danger, it was the girl's action and the father's insensitivity that puts the girl's life in danger.
You also have situations where you're getting into some extreme gray area as to what's medically dangerous or not. All childbirth is dangerous by nature. Any woman is capable of bleeding out giving birth and dying. So, in theory, every woman's life is in danger merely by being pregnant.
You also have people with an agenda, and you have medical doctors who are literal wh0res and will say whatever the person paying them tells them to say.
If the woman's life is honestly in mortal danger due to the fact that she's pregnant and by the fact that she's pregnant and naturally stands a realistic chance of dying due to the pregnancy (and not by the hand of anyone else or even herself), then yes, I see a viable out.0 -
If a woman or girl wants to put herself through that, then by all means let her. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by eboydell
If you think that I am going to spend one dollar on some "kid" that I do not want, nor care for, then you are sadly mistaken. All of my extra money either goes to guns , cars, or other toys that I desire. If the girl wants the "kid",LET HER RAISE IT! As far as all of this foolishness as to when life begins...well we kill enough real people everyday in some form or fashion to more than make up for some abortions. So grow up...life usually sucks; stop crying for the "unborn"!
Cheer up and take heart. Hang in there and life will get better.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
As a poor Ba$tard myself, I am thankful that my Mother had the courage to Carry and Birth me. Thank You Mom!
I've heard that many women actually regret their abortions.And, despite the drive-thru accessability, there are dangers involved for the mother.
You mention nature, but it is surely unatural to stick a roto-router into woman and chop up and vacuum out an unborn child, and that is what is happening...
If you live to be older and wiser you will realize that children are a blessing. But it may be too late by than[}:)]
I have had this conversation with many women later in life and every one has had serious feelings of remorse as a result of the abortion that they did years before. They have major guilt feelings about it.
I am not taking a stand either way.0 -
It sounds to me the only people who are against abortion is the male bible thumper! I think its up to the women who has it! 0 -
Originally posted by Spanielsells:
If the woman's life is honestly in mortal danger due to the fact that she's pregnant and by the fact that she's pregnant and naturally stands a realistic chance of dying due to the pregnancy (and not by the hand of anyone else or even herself), then yes, I see a viable out.
_____________________________________________________________________
I agree with you Spaniels that in that event the decision should be up to the woman and her husband. I have thought about this however, when was the last time that we knew a woman who died in child birth? I'm not saying that it cant happen. But I have never know of it happening. And all the girls in my town are pregnant by about 19 or so.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SG_Niner
It sounds to me the only people who are against abortion is the male bible thumper! I think its up to the women who has it!
You aren't talking to enough women then. I know plenty, including my wife, who are 100% against abortion.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jonk
First let me state right off that I find abortion to be an abomination; it is an act of a person who refuses to accept consequences for her actions and is looking for an easy out (99% of the time anyhow). I also think that it destroys a life.
Buuuuuttt....
If life begins at conception, there is a BIG problem. Nature has let billions die.
Not every fertilized egg implants.
Ergo, millions of lives are snuffed out each year when a fertilized egg fails to implant and just gets menstruated out or otherwise dies. The same folks who are so keen to point out that God imparts a soul at conception seem to have missed this; if the soul is present, then it is life and it is dying (unbaptized I might add).
How to recitfy this dichotomy? Are we to assume that a loving God is saying that some life is unworthy? What of miscarriages then?
All very troubling and confusing, if I do say so.
Getting back to the original point...
Look at fertility clinics. They take 6-8 eggs. Fertilizer them with a little sperm. Grow the embryo for 3-5 days. Chose the best 3 and implant them. At best there is a 50/50 chance that one will develop into a live birth. Think about it. 6-8 embryos are created with only a 50% chance of one live child. The far majority of embroys die in the name of creating one. Then there are extra that are frozen and later discarded because they aren't needed when one blessing "sticks".
I'm not even considering the strategy of destroying, I should say aborting, any "extra" embryos of a multiple pregnancy. Doctors don't try to implant 4-6 embryos anymore. Just 2 or 3 at a time.
It does make me wonder how many lives are created naturally only to not make it past the first 5 days and the mother never even realizes she was pregnant. I think this point was also a part of the original post. It also makes me wonder about the morality of what is destroyed in the hopes of creating just one or two lives through modern science.
Any thoughts?0 -
I don't post often but this one was calling on me. I went through the free love era. I knew many who obtained abortions, of course none were legal then. I can't say that I advocate abortion just for the sake of getting rid of the kid. Have you ever experienced the heat of passion and don't have protection? Is it better to bear a child and raise it without a father, in an environment of poverty and resentment? Resentment in the fact that the mother has to care for this child while the father is enjoying himself. I am not saying all cases are like this. If the child is unwanted, why have it? If the child is wanted, then shower it with love and spoil it rotten. Pro choice. Just my 2 cents. Bshooter 0 -
What would the liberals say if someone in Warshington proposed a tax credit as an incentive for mothers to chose adoption over abortion. I better Hillary and Pelosi would be howling.
There is a surplus of people willing to adopt in America.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
quote:Originally posted by jonk
First let me state right off that I find abortion to be an abomination; it is an act of a person who refuses to accept consequences for her actions and is looking for an easy out (99% of the time anyhow). I also think that it destroys a life.
Buuuuuttt....
If life begins at conception, there is a BIG problem. Nature has let billions die.
Not every fertilized egg implants.
Ergo, millions of lives are snuffed out each year when a fertilized egg fails to implant and just gets menstruated out or otherwise dies. The same folks who are so keen to point out that God imparts a soul at conception seem to have missed this; if the soul is present, then it is life and it is dying (unbaptized I might add).
How to recitfy this dichotomy? Are we to assume that a loving God is saying that some life is unworthy? What of miscarriages then?
All very troubling and confusing, if I do say so.
Getting back to the original point...
Look at fertility clinics. They take 6-8 eggs. Fertilizer them with a little sperm. Grow the embryo for 3-5 days. Chose the best 3 and implant them. At best there is a 50/50 chance that one will develop into a live birth. Think about it. 6-8 embryos are created with only a 50% chance of one live child. The far majority of embroys die in the name of creating one. Then there are extra that are frozen and later discarded because they aren't needed when one blessing "sticks".
I'm not even considering the strategy of destroying, I should say aborting, any "extra" embryos of a multiple pregnancy. Doctors don't try to implant 4-6 embryos anymore. Just 2 or 3 at a time.
It does make me wonder how many lives are created naturally only to not make it past the first 5 days and the mother never even realizes she was pregnant. I think this point was also a part of the original post. It also makes me wonder about the morality of what is destroyed in the hopes of creating just one or two lives through modern science.
Any thoughts?
Thoughts about what (I'm not finding a point here, friend)?
If you're asking what about women who are "pregnant" for a few days only to have the embryo destroyed without even their knowledge, then I've already answered that. The Big Man upstairs has His own reasons and I dare not question them.
If you're asking what about embryos that are destroyed, I'm not a fan of that, either.
If you're asking what I think about fertility clinics, I don't have an opinion on them. I do, however, have an opinion on abortion mills.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
What would the liberals say if someone in Warshington proposed a tax credit as an incentive for mothers to chose adoption over abortion. I better Hillary and Pelosi would be howling.
There is a surplus of people willing to adopt in America.
Yes you're 100% correct. There's a surplus of parents wanting to adopt in this country. The situation is so bad that desperate couples travel OVERSEAS to find babies to adopt.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bshooter
I don't post often but this one was calling on me. I went through the free love era. I knew many who obtained abortions, of course none were legal then. I can't say that I advocate abortion just for the sake of getting rid of the kid. Have you ever experienced the heat of passion and don't have protection? Is it better to bear a child and raise it without a father, in an environment of poverty and resentment? Resentment in the fact that the mother has to care for this child while the father is enjoying himself. I am not saying all cases are like this. If the child is unwanted, why have it? If the child is wanted, then shower it with love and spoil it rotten. Pro choice. Just my 2 cents. Bshooter
I think some restraint would then be order. If not, then step up to the plate and be an adult, and not kill the result of that passion. Actions have consequences sometimes in life. You cant just kill your mistake even if it is your own baby. Just my humble opinion.0 -
sav99
You are right, be a man and stand up to your responsibilities. I was not speaking from experience. As you know, there are a lot of "men" who do not accept responsibility, but why make the female suffer? Just my thoughts. Bshooter0 -
I guess what I am saying is...
In the name of creating a life, eight or so other lives can be created and destroyed. Some will die "naturally" while trying to be implanted, but these embryos are not being created naturally, but through science. It's a part of the possible ethical gray area that most people don't think about. To look at it another way...a few eggs have to be broken to create one life.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bshooter
sav99
You are right, be a man and stand up to your responsibilities. I was not speaking from experience. As you know, there are a lot of "men" who do not accept responsibility, but why make the female suffer? Just my thoughts. Bshooter
That comment wasn't directed at you personally Bshooter. Sorry if it sounded that way. You're right many so called men do run out leaving the woman to raise the baby alone.0
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