Ethanol plant shuts down
Our local ethanol plant just announced they are temporarily shutting down. Due to high corn prices and low sale price apparently they cannot even break even. Corn is $3 bushel which make 3 gallons of ethanol ($1 gallon). Don't know what production costs are. The plant is getting $1.70 a gallon. I'm not sure if they are getting federal subsidies but I know they are not getting any state subsidies (yet). The State does have monies set aside for ethanol subsidies and has recently discussed releasing it. I suspect this is a ploy influence the state to release those funds as the owner has another plant which is remaining open and he is not stopping construction on a new one. Makes me wonder how they survived 2 years ago when fuel was even cheaper.
Unfortunately the closure is a big hit on our small community. 40 jobs and about 700K in utility income could be lost to the community if it shuts down long term. Given all the corn that was grown in this area this year (we are not really corn country), and the states option to release subsity money I suspect the closure will be short term. I think this just reinforces that ethanol is NOT a solution to our energy needs.
Unfortunately the closure is a big hit on our small community. 40 jobs and about 700K in utility income could be lost to the community if it shuts down long term. Given all the corn that was grown in this area this year (we are not really corn country), and the states option to release subsity money I suspect the closure will be short term. I think this just reinforces that ethanol is NOT a solution to our energy needs.
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lot of fuzzy math from both sides. let me give you some more 'fuel for thought':
the internal combusion engine is nothing more than a 'heat machine'. This means that it's proper operation relies on 'x' amount of btu's per gallon. Now, ethanol is 'alcohol' made from corn, etc. I have probably more experience that 90% of those here with Methanol, which is alcohol made from wood, so trust me on this one: It takes 1.8 times the amount of Alcohol to make the same energy as a gallon of gasoline. so hit those calculators.....
1.70 x 1.8= $3.06 per the same amount of energy...gee that looks just like a gallon of gas to me.....
Plus, even though it burns slightly cleaner than gas, it still burns and produces greenhouse gas.
Now factor in the fact that unless you have a vehicle that is designed to run on 'flex fuel', you can factor in the cost of various components in you vehicle's fuel system as alcohol in higher volume turns many of the soft parts into jelly over time......0 -
quote:Originally posted by use enough gun
I'm real tired, I've got a headache, I've got to go to work shortly so I have no time to properly respond. There's nothing wrong with Ethanol, all gasoline in the states must contain 10% ethanol by law. Would you rather keep sending your money to Abdul in the middle east? The Grafton plant that was shut down is I believe the oldest plant in Dakota. Wasn't it constructed in '74? It probably needs some upgrades as the newer ones are much more efficient. Dave
Send it to us in Canada. The oil sands have more oil in them than the middle east. It's just expensive to extract.
Bet you didn't know that
Ethanol is stuuuuuuupid but it gets votes0 -
rcrxmike_2.... $1.70 is the price the manufacturers get. The retail would be considerably higher. Looks like you are also comparing Straight Eth to gas. I doubt running on straight Eth will be feasible on a wholesale level for a long time. The mixtures currenty being used are a bit more efficient than your numbers though in my own experience ethanol blends have still been a less cost effective fuel than gas. My personal vehicle al take a 3-4 MPG hit on Reg vs the higher Ethanol blends.
quote:For the same acreage switchgrass will make atleast 3 times the biofuel corn will and can be harvested twice a year.
Maybe initially it will but I'm doubting that quantity can be sustained over a period of time. As with any crops, each year the harvest will be diminished without putting something back into the soil.
quote:i can produce 100 bu/ac corn and thats planted harvested on less than 2 gals of diesel fuel that 100 bu/ac corn can produce 250 gals+ of fuel..
Thats a rate of efficiency that is probably above average. Is "harvested" including delivery to the manufacturer or just delivery to your storage? Then you still have to take into account the manufactureres cost of fuel to produce the product. I'm not sure the negative cost/benefit ratio of fuel to fuel is quite accurate but in all likelyhood it is close enough that other production costs make the overall cost/benifit inefficient.
Our plant is the oldest one in ND and is actually a conversion from an old potato flake(Bordens)processing plant. One other consideration is plant maintenance cost, which in at least this plant is huge. Ethanol production is very caustic. This is a steel building and the steel roof and walls need to be replaced about every 5 years.0 -
Taurus Energy got the solution for this array of problems. 0 -
"There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for one hundred years." - Henry Ford
Henry Ford's first cars were ran on fuel he made himself. He envisioned America being self sufficient and powering itself.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/02/18/037624.html
There is ONE sole reason why they add 15% gasoline to Ethanol to make E-85. The US Govt demanded it be poisoned to keep people from drinking from the fuel pump.
Let's look at a E85 Flexfuel vehicle from Ford or GM. Yes, you need more ethanol to get from A to B....than if you used gasoline. Why? If you are going to burn alcohol only....you need a higher compression engine. If they made the compression ratio higher....that vehicle would get MORE MPG than if it were running on gasoline....but would no longer run on gasoline...it would ping until it died.
It's a dumbed down ethanol vehicle to make it easy for Americans....dual fuel. It was not made to be optimal for ethanol.
Every drag racer knows alcohol makes more power than gasoline. Go prove them wrong....outrun them at the Nationals with your wimpy gasoline engine.[:p]0 -
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quote:Originally posted by flyingtorpedo
Converting corn to ethanol is very inefficient. For the same acreage switchgrass will make atleast 3 times the biofuel corn will and can be harvested twice a year. It would also be a native grass for most of the midwest and is drought resistant and can manage the poor soil quality as well. As a bonus it would be better for wildlife.
+1 on that, Field and Stream had a good write up on native grasses that could be turned into fuel instead of corn in their recent magazine.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
"There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for one hundred years." - Henry Ford
Henry Ford's first cars were ran on fuel he made himself. He envisioned America being self sufficient and powering itself.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/02/18/037624.html
There is ONE sole reason why they add 15% gasoline to Ethanol to make E-85. The US Govt demanded it be poisoned to keep people from drinking from the fuel pump.
Let's look at a E85 Flexfuel vehicle from Ford or GM. Yes, you need more ethanol to get from A to B....than if you used gasoline. Why? If you are going to burn alcohol only....you need a higher compression engine. If they made the compression ratio higher....that vehicle would get MORE MPG than if it were running on gasoline....but would no longer run on gasoline...it would ping until it died.
It's a dumbed down ethanol vehicle to make it easy for Americans....dual fuel. It was not made to be optimal for ethanol.
Every drag racer knows alcohol makes more power than gasoline. Go prove them wrong....outrun them at the Nationals with your wimpy gasoline engine.[:p]
Nope, there are other reasons to use it, but ethanol is not even close in power yield per gallon to gas.
Table 1 - Average Btu Content of Fuels
Electricity:
1 KW 3,412 Btu/hr
Natural Gas:
1 Cubic Foot of Natural Gas 1,030 Btu's
1 CCF = 100 Cu Ft = 1 Therm 103,000 Btu's
1 MCF = 1,000 Cu Ft = 10 Therms 1,034,000 Btu's = 1.034 MMBtu's
Propane:
1 Gal Propane 91,600 Btu's
1 Cu Ft Propane 2,500 Btu's
Gasoline:
1 Gal of Gasoline (mid grade) 125,000 Btu's
Ethanol:
1 Gal of Ethanol 76,000 Btu's
Fuel Oil:
1 Gal of #1 Kerosene 135,000 Btu's
1 Gal of #2 Fuel Oil 138,000 Btu's
1 Gal of #4 Fuel Oil 145,000 Btu's
1 Gal of #6 Fuel Oil 150,000 Btu's
http://www.mainepublicservice.com/customer/Fuel and Energy.pdf0 -
Here's your reasons.
Ethanol releases its power faster than gas or diesel, among other considerations involved. It's not the total power at all.
http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorsports/racing_fuel_characteristics.aspx0 -
Ethanol is noy required by law to be in all gasolines. E-85 is a blend of 85% gasoline and 15% ethanol. Gasoline spanks ethanol in the BTU catagorey.
A much better way to help America's energy needs would be to expand natural gas production on the east and west coast. But, folks don't want rigs in their waters. Natural gas is a clean "green" fuel. It could be used to fire electric plants and heat homes. It is easy and cheap to extract. But, the NIMBY's don't want the evil natural gas rigs near them. So m uch better when they have to have it pipelined over thousands of miles from the Gulf Coast.
Methanol is made from natural gas. At least that's what we made it from at the plant where I worked. It has been shutdown for the last 7 years because methanol imports were cheaper because the price of natural gas skyrockted. In fact, all the methanol plants here in LA., have shutsown.0 -
Brazil got smart several years ago, and started refining ethanol from sugar cane. They have mostly ethanol there now and have dropped from an 85 Percent dependency on foreign oils to a 10 Percent dependency!!!
USA is slowly starting to get on the band wagon!!!0 -
i know some hemp farmers... sorta... 0 -
Huh. You'll have to tell those IndyCar drivers that:
www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=8261
They all run on it now.
Specific Gravity of Ethanol is .815
Specific Gravity of Gasoline is .730
Ethanol is 105 octane. Gasoline is 87.
Flashpoint of Ethanol? 55.4* F
Flashpoint of Gasoline? -40* F
The compression ratio for Ethanol would be well over 15-1 to actually use it's energy.
""A high compression ratio allows an engine to extract more mechanical energy from a given mass of air-fuel mixture due to its higher thermal efficiency."" Hmmm....so with that putrid 76,000 BTU fuel......you make a bigger fire by changing atmospheric pressure of the fire (adding oxygen)....thus altering BTU's.
For Example:
1 standard cubic foot of natural gas ? 1030 BTU
How do you make that 1 standard cubic foot of natural gas produce more than 1030 BTU at sea level?
Increase atmospheric pressure (available oxygen per parts per million) Or just shoot some oxygen into it... Whalla...hotter fire. You left the baseline BTU of that fuel via atmospheric change/oxygen level.
BTU's is the amount of heat required to heat 1 pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit....at sea level. Gasoline has a lower flashpoint and it thus is more efficient at sea level than Ethanol to just light it to warm that 1 pound of water for your BTU rating.
Now take that dense high octane Ethanol and increase atmospheric pressure to get it working in it's optimum environment....more power than gasoline. Thus why alcohols are used in serious race vehicles.
Nobody is making a production car optimized for Ethanol only. If they did, it's MPG would exceed a gasoline car. It is not being used at it's optimum atmosperic pressure in FlexFuel vehicles. And your lower rating of BTU's may in fact be true for sea level open burning to heat 1 pound of water....but .......put that fuel in an engine that will compress it properly and it'll knock the snott out of gasoline.
I thought you went to college?[;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
I thought you went to college?[;)]
We are not allowed to use intelligence on this matter unless we are corn farmers.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
Here's your reasons.
Ethanol releases its power faster than gas or diesel, among other considerations involved. It's not the total power at all.
http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorsports/racing_fuel_characteristics.aspx
You did read that and see the "Net Energy" for Ethanol/alcohols....is higher than gasoline right?0 -
quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
Here's your reasons.
Ethanol releases its power faster than gas or diesel, among other considerations involved. It's not the total power at all.
http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorsports/racing_fuel_characteristics.aspx
You did read that and see the "Net Energy" for Ethanol/alcohols....is higher than gasoline right?
Please read the explanation of what "net energy" entails under the energy value section. You are completely offbase in your interpretation of the event.
Do not confuse volatility with total power. Ether is very volatile, that's why it makes a good starter fuel for engines, but does not have near the "power" of something like diesel fuel.
It's like fast burning vs. slow burning powders; how much can you get to burn before the slug goes out the barrel. Racing fuels don't have time to burn at the speed engines run unless they are fast burning, and the heavier, more powerful fuels, just plain don't burn rapidly enough.
Not the same thing as being more powerful, just deliver more power in a short period of time.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
Huh. You'll have to tell those IndyCar drivers that:
www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=8261
They all run on it now.
Specific Gravity of Ethanol is .815
Specific Gravity of Gasoline is .730
Ethanol is 105 octane. Gasoline is 87.
Flashpoint of Ethanol? 55.4* F
Flashpoint of Gasoline? -40* F
The compression ratio for Ethanol would be well over 15-1 to actually use it's energy.
""A high compression ratio allows an engine to extract more mechanical energy from a given mass of air-fuel mixture due to its higher thermal efficiency."" Hmmm....so with that putrid 76,000 BTU fuel......you make a bigger fire by changing atmospheric pressure of the fire (adding oxygen)....thus altering BTU's.
For Example:
1 standard cubic foot of natural gas ? 1030 BTU
How do you make that 1 standard cubic foot of natural gas produce more than 1030 BTU at sea level?
Increase atmospheric pressure (available oxygen per parts per million) Or just shoot some oxygen into it... Whalla...hotter fire. You left the baseline BTU of that fuel via atmospheric change/oxygen level.
BTU's is the amount of heat required to heat 1 pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit....at sea level. Gasoline has a lower flashpoint and it thus is more efficient at sea level than Ethanol to just light it to warm that 1 pound of water for your BTU rating.
Now take that dense high octane Ethanol and increase atmospheric pressure to get it working in it's optimum environment....more power than gasoline. Thus why alcohols are used in serious race vehicles.
Nobody is making a production car optimized for Ethanol only. If they did, it's MPG would exceed a gasoline car. It is not being used at it's optimum atmosperic pressure in FlexFuel vehicles. And your lower rating of BTU's may in fact be true for sea level open burning to heat 1 pound of water....but .......put that fuel in an engine that will compress it properly and it'll knock the snott out of gasoline.
I thought you went to college?[;)]
I did.
Your interpretation of the information is simply wrong.
Gas has far more power than any ethanol fuel, it just doesn't burn as fast.
Gas is the same compared to diesel. Gas will blow up near a match, while you can put a match out in diesel, but the diesel has more power stored in it than gas. Reality.0 -
cowdoc I have to call you on this one
some of you guys dont know your head from your a s s about production of corn...what there is....is a net energy loss producing food of people who do nothing but sit on their a s s at a computer think they know how much it takes to do something who have never done it......i can produce 100 bu/ac corn and thats planted harvested on less than 2 gals of diesel fuel that 100 bu/ac corn can produce 250 gals+ of fuel.....the distillers grain is then fed to livestock .....corn is almost a 1.00 a bushel less now than from the high........god theres some stupid people in this world.......hell they just asked for 190 billion for war which does boil down to its for oil.....the whole farkin middle east deal does boil down to oil like it not....why the hell would we even care about the middle east.... sure as hell is not because we need a good supply of sand.
are you really saying that you have included all the costs in your reply?
what about working the field to get it ready for planting ? gettting the seed out to your farm ? planting the seed ? putting on all the different fertilizers, insectize,ect. then harvesting the grain and hauling it into town, what about storage costs ? tags and insurance cost? equipment costs and maintance ,your time doing every thing that has to be done
you can do all this on 2 gallons of fuel per acre ????0 -
dakotashooter2 can you provide any kind of link to a story about the plant closing down ? newspaper or TV ? 0 -
gssky the other costs you mention are there no matter what the ground is going to be planted no matter what....us farmers are so much more efficent than we was even ten years ago.....we have to be or would be no longer in business.......and yes the i can produce and harvest a corn crop on two gals of diesel....this part of the country is all notill i have ground that has had no tillage of any kind for ten years plant the crop spray it once or twice with round up then harvest it. just for example when i spray i cover twelve acres on one gal of diesel fuel, to plant i burn about half gal an acre,to harvest it combine takes depending on conditions around three quarters of a gal....i farm a larger number of acres and do know how much my costs are...i have to i borrow large amount of money and i have to put it on paper for banker to beable to borrow that kind of money.......i am sick and tired of people who p i s s and moan if a farmer make any money not refering to you just in general us famers that are left are pretty sharp not just some old mc donald farmers running around in bibs and a straw hat that the horse took abite out of it and have tractors with tires that look like they have bubble gum stuck on the outside of it for a tire patch.
and for anybodys info it costs money to produce switch grass in large enough amounts.....gonna take fuel to cut it bale it haul it also also gonna take fertilzer to make big crops of that also.
pic below is me notilling winter wheat back into spring wheat stubble and corn will be notilled into the winter wheat stubble dont have pic of that though so you get the idea0 -
hey McCowdoc.....we real farmers gota quit disagreeing with the talking heads...remember mommy knows best...besides i really don't like them picking on you...look at the pic...i mean you have already gone GREEN...i'm still running red...MCspasmcreek 0 -
Nice airseeder cowdoc. Looks simular to ours, except our tanks are on the other end. We pull ours with a 7400, not our 9120. We put the Kinzee on the 91. 0 -
Manufacturing 1 ton of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer requires 33,500 cubic feet of natural gas, and that adds significantly to the energy cost of producing ethanol fuels. Transporting and/or mining all of the other inputs, like phosphate, potash, insecticides and herbicides (oil extracts, usually) to the producer, and the crop to final user, add considerably more.
The distillation process itself is not particularly efficient in terms of BTU's produced compared to BTU's consumed, and then you have to transport the final product to the retail outlet for distribution.
I'm glad to be able to sell my corn for a higher price due to the increased demand for the crop, but it's not very efficient in terms of energy units produced compared to energy units consumed.0 -
dlrjj
What county do you call home here in Indiana?0 -
quote:Originally posted by freemind
dlrjj
What county do you call home here in Indiana?
Huntington.
Any particular reason?0 -
quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
The creation of Ethanol.....involves the creation of oxygen. Corn creates oxygen while growing.
Oil out of wells burns oxygen and creates no oxygen in the cycle.
One bushel of corn is not very much but it yields 3 gallons of fuel...of which is only $1.70 a gallon.
How much is gas a gallon? I can create 1 gallon of ethanol from corn for about $1.50. Homegrown, home picked.
How does it cost more to create ethanol again?
How does ethanol polute the environment more than gasoline?
Does anyone have ANY idea how much Carbon Dioxide/Monoxide is REMOVED from the atmosphere from growing Corn? How much Oxygen is added?
Now figure out how much Carbon Dioxide/Monoxide is removed from the air if we keep just burning gasoline...none...we ADD! How much oxygen do you add to the atmosphere burning gasoline....NONE.
Just because some politically grant driven college misfit writes otherwise doesn't mean his drivel is fact. Get some common sense Americans you sheeple.
I'm with you on the part about creating more carbon monoxide cause plants turn that to oxygen. the other part i have more reading.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by freemind
dlrjj
What county do you call home here in Indiana?
Huntington.
Any particular reason?
Just curious. I am in steuben.0 -
Ah yes, another good, conservative, Indiana county.[:)] 0 -
gssky the other costs you mention are there no matter what the ground is going to be planted no matter what....
Doc that is true , but it still is a cost that has to be figured into what it takes to raise that corn and get it into fuel
and by the way I'm not bitchen at you guys for makeing a little money , i just can't agree with you on this ethanol crap being a good thing0 -
how much energy does it take to drill the well, pump the crude, refine it, pump it down the pipe line to terminals, then pump it into tankers....and around here haul it 100-150miles to gas station......not mention the amount of money spent in foreign countrys for our energy interests ect ect ect i seriously dout thats much more efficient if any......not saying ethanol is the total solution its not the detriment to the environment that some are saying it is
freemind my current air seeder has tow behind tanks that pic is of one i rented one fall
Dlrjj...i burn soy diesel 5% in everything that makes it alot better fuel than the non soy crap so get to planting dem beans[:D]
one poster here is correct on engines burning ethanol are not high enough compression for it is why the slight so called loss in performance and i have burned reg gas vs 10% any my vehicles perform better on the 10% ethanol gas0
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