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Carlos Hathcock UPDATE

tccox
Was talking with a local expert today whos own a Barrett 50BMG and I was talking guns with him. He said he has to pay $1500 a year for a permit to own silencers and full auto guns. He did not explain to my satisfaction why he had to pay this fee. He said such guns and silencers had to be locked up and he had to check them out or something to that effect. He still hasn't explained it to my satisfaction so maybe next time I get up with him.
OK, about my subject. He also said that Carlos used a silencer on his rifle and loaded it to subsonic speed. I told him BS since a subsonic round would not go 1/2 mile, nust less kill someone but he insists he is right. I just don't think so but can find nothing much on the internet.
One thing I did find which I DO NOT believe is about him shooting thru an enemy sniper's scope. That is just too hard to swallow. How did he know he shot thru the scope of the other sniper?? Did he just jump up and run up there to confirm his kill?? I just don't think so. I believe a true sniper would have just snuck away to live another day. His record was something like 90+ confirmed and 300 or so "possibles". Like, why "possibles"? Didn't some run up and see where they were shot? Who went up to see the dead sniper shot thru his scope? Hard for me to believe. Tom

UPDATE: Our local paper is now available online at: yalobushanewsonline.com You can read about NECAISE by going to NEWS - ARCHIVES - NECAISE and click on the headline. I think that is how I reached it! You can also read about all the other news in our fair city. Tom
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Comments

82 comments

Date Votes
  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by givette
    Wolf: givette here. It was I that indicated 8X. My primary Hathcock info/bio came from the book "Marine Sniper".

    I don't have the book anymore. Was going on memory, and may very well be wrong. Can anyone confirm the scope atop Hathcock's M70 Winchester? If you can, please direct me to the reference. Thanks, Joe


    I'm working on memory here, but Carlos used an 8X Unertl on his first tour, and some during the first part of his second tour, but he then used a 10X Unertl on a Winchester 300, I think.
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  • David Nunn
    BTW, I had the pleasure of meeting GSGT. Hathcock in 1996. He was in a wheelchair at that time, and I found him to be a quiet, humble, unassuming sort of man. The sort of man who would not be given to exaggeration or prevarication. IMNSHO, a real man and a real hero. May he forever rest in peace, for he saw his share of war.
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  • ripley16
    quote:Originally posted by tccox
    rsr1950: "leave US alone". Who the heck is US?? I was there also. I am not picking on anyone. I am just questioning the thru the scope shot.
    Here is my last take on the subject. I am not an expert on trajectories but unless the shot is point blank, the round is going up in an arc. The longer the shot, the greater the arc. Unless the shot at scope is pointed up at the same angle, the bullet CANNOT go thru the scope from end to end. That is my take on it anyway. Tom



    Hathcock said it happened, Burke said it happened, Land said it happened, but you choose to believe your own guess? I don't follow your logic on the arc. It's a damn small arc in the space of a scope tube.

    My personal theory is that Hathcock and Burke (who was shot at in this encounter), are alive only because the NVA sniper had a three power scope and Hathcock had a eight power scope and found the "glint of light" before the NVA sniper could identify his next target. Hathcock was shooting downhill, BTW.
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  • ripley16
    quote:Originally posted by givette
    Hathcock's equipment: 8pwr Unertl. No recoil spring (his preference). Used AP because the match ammo was unavailable. Win. M70.

    The book Marine Sniper says they used Match Grade ammo. Do you have a source concerning the AP rounds?
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  • jtmarine0831
    Wolf, like you said it is no big deal, but FYI the USMC M40's were not fitted with a 10x Unertl until they started upfitting to the M40A1's in the late 1970's. The original M40's were topped with a 3-9x Accurange when they were first issued. But Hathcock was using a Mod.70 during this encounter.

    givette, It was an Unertl 8x, Unertl was making these scopes specifically for the Marine Corps. just as they later did the 10x.
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  • kimi
    Carlos hathcock used a 10X Unertl the latter part of his second tour, if I remember what I read correctly. He had it sent to him from stateside while he was in country - I think. Did I also note that I believe he used a 300 Winchester too? Or was that a 10 power Redfield? Oh well, so much for details. [:)]
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  • select-fire
    Just how long was that Unertl Hathcock had? Here is a pic of a Lyman Supertargetspot. How long was the NVC's scope? Anyone think mine could be shot thru.. it is 25+ inches long. I am beginning to become skeptical of this whole story.

    DSCN0695-1.jpg
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  • kimi
    Please take a look at these Redfields and see if they are similar to the one on Hathcock's rifle on page one:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Redfield-5-star-3-9-variable-scope-only-no-rings_W0QQitemZ180177425472QQihZ008QQcategoryZ31714QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    or here:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Redfield-range-finding-rifle-scope_W0QQitemZ290180608628QQihZ019QQcategoryZ31714QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    or this 10X:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Redfield-Illuminator-3-10x50-Rifle-Scope-New-Gloss_W0QQitemZ190173189715QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31714QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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  • givette
    Kimi: givette here. You're on the right scent trail. According to the "Marine Sniper" book, a rifle chambered in .300 WinMagnum was used by him to win in competition. Don't remember what make rifle, though. Also don't remember what scope setup he used when he competed in the 'nationals. Joe

    EDIT: Select, the NVA snipers optics were very short, in comparision to the Unertl's, or to the one in your photo. Not too much more than six inches, or so.

    Go downrange with a roll of toilet paper. (The interior of the roll has a similar length and somewhat the same diameter as Soviet scope dimensions). Face it end-on toward the bench. And shoot through the hole. Think you can do it? I'll bet you can. Best, Joe
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  • kimi
    That's what I read, givette, now that you mention it. The scope he had sent to him was a 10 power that he used in competition. With everyone under the sun working on this, we'll get it right yet.

    The scope on his rifle as shown at page one, looks like the Redfields to me, what about you?

    The make of the rifle was a Winchester Model 70, here again, I think.
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  • Highball
    Isn't it simply amazing...the people that will question a man like Hathcocks' verasity...and accept without question what dribbles out of the mouths of presidents and politicians.

    They are unable to differentiate between a man..and garbage.
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  • kimi
    There must be a full moon out tonight! [:D]
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  • givette
    Kimi: dunno. Mine was a paperback. Front cover was a painting. Generic depiction of a rifleman poking out of some underbrush. Had blue eyes. Not C/H. Rifle was artists interpretation. Cant vouch for rifle in your book. Didn't see it. Sorry, Joe

    EDIT: Cover painting on the book had blue eyes. C/H did not. Joe
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  • kimi
    givette: I don't think it was a book that I read that in. I believe it was an article written by a man who had exclusive interviews with Hathcock whom he quoted. I have tried to find the same article online but have had no luck.

    Blue eye's huh?
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  • TRAP55
    quote: Cripe does anyone know the dia, and length of a mosin sniper scope?
    It was a Russian PU scope, made in the 1940's. The one used on Myth busters was a modern reproduction with completely different type of lenses in it.
    Kalinka optics donated the scopes, the full story is here:
    http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/Mythbusters.aspx
    My understanding is that the Mosin sniper rifle was brought back to the states and was on display at Ft. Bragg, and now the whereabouts are unknown.
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  • select-fire
    Thanks for letting me know what scope the NVC had. Here it is

    http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/PU-Sniper-Scope-Black.html

    It has a 22MM which is .875 dia lens. Hathcocks bullet was .308 dia. leaving a total clearance of .567 to pass thru the scope without touching the sides from 500 yd away. Scope is 6.1" long.At 500 yd a 30/06 is still whistling along at approx. 1500 feet per second with energy around 1000 ft pds.Here is a link to some ballistics on 30/06. Gun is sighted at 600 yd. 21.7" high at 500. Trajectory would be + .006 per inch so + 0.366 trajectory thru the scope with no deflection in the 6.1" the length of the scope. http://www.snipercentral.com/3006.htm
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  • jtmarine0831
    Kimi, found out some info on the 10x scope. If it was a 10x, it wasn't Unertl! I emailed Unertl last night and they informed me that the first production run of the 10x was in July of 1981. I do know that on his second tour he was issued a Rem 700/40x, the first of the M40 sniper packages but he was injured and out of Vietnam in 1969. I do know that when the M40 and M40A1 weapons packages were topped with Redfield Accuranges until after the Vietnam War was over. Well atleast every source of published info that I have read has stated that. If it was a 10x Kimi, do you recall who was the manufacturer? If not, when you find out let me know please, just for poops and giggles.


    quote:Isn't it simply amazing...the people that will question a man like Hathcocks' verasity...and accept without question what dribbles out of the mouths of presidents and politicians.

    They are unable to differentiate between a man..and garbage.

    Highball, I definately agree with you there!
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by jtmarine0831
    Kimi, found out some info on the 10x scope. If it was a 10x, it wasn't Unertl! I emailed Unertl last night and they informed me that the first production run of the 10x was in July of 1981. I do know that on his second tour he was issued a Rem 700/40x, the first of the M40 sniper packages but he was injured and out of Vietnam in 1969. I do know that when the M40 and M40A1 weapons packages were topped with Redfield Accuranges until after the Vietnam War was over. Well atleast every source of published info that I have read has stated that. If it was a 10x Kimi, do you recall who was the manufacturer? If not, when you find out let me know please, just for poops and giggles.


    quote:Isn't it simply amazing...the people that will question a man like Hathcocks' verasity...and accept without question what dribbles out of the mouths of presidents and politicians.

    They are unable to differentiate between a man..and garbage.

    Highball, I definately agree with you there!


    jtmarine:

    Thanks for your notes on the Marines use of Redfields in the NAM. It was probably a Redfield that he used on his 300. Look at the above links I posted and you can see that the Redfields there are identical to the one in the picture on page one of this thread where he is pictured with his scoped rifle. Also, The Marines did use the 6 and 10 power redfields in the NAM according to some links I googled up. So it would have been a 10 power Redfield. Hathcock was not happy with the equipment the Marine snipers had when he reported for his second tour, and did what he could to remedy it.
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  • ruger270man
    hey guess what i was a navy seal and a green beret and i killed 80 people with my bare hands and i can blow up a car with just a can of redbull and a zippo lighter.. and I had to do that quite often back in 'nam when I was surrounded by the vietcong.
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  • jtmarine0831
    quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
    hey guess what i was a navy seal and a green beret and i killed 80 people with my bare hands and i can blow up a car with just a can of redbull and a zippo lighter.. and I had to do that quite often back in 'nam when I was surrounded by the vietcong.




    What the Fa-Hell!! I think you need to lay off the RedBull for a day man! Hahaha J/K, That's still some funny poop though!
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
    hey guess what i was a navy seal and a green beret and i killed 80 people with my bare hands and i can blow up a car with just a can of redbull and a zippo lighter.. and I had to do that quite often back in 'nam when I was surrounded by the vietcong.




    [:(][xx(]Had you been a typical swab jockey or jarhead ya coulda done that with nothing more than a good chaw of Redman.[^]
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  • ripley16
    quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
    hey guess what i was a navy seal and a green beret and i killed 80 people with my bare hands and i can blow up a car with just a can of redbull and a zippo lighter.. and I had to do that quite often back in 'nam when I was surrounded by the vietcong.



    You should write a book. Here's the cover pic.
    [img][/img]400px-Armycannabisshotgun.jpg
    [:D]
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