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Carlos Hathcock UPDATE

tccox
Was talking with a local expert today whos own a Barrett 50BMG and I was talking guns with him. He said he has to pay $1500 a year for a permit to own silencers and full auto guns. He did not explain to my satisfaction why he had to pay this fee. He said such guns and silencers had to be locked up and he had to check them out or something to that effect. He still hasn't explained it to my satisfaction so maybe next time I get up with him.
OK, about my subject. He also said that Carlos used a silencer on his rifle and loaded it to subsonic speed. I told him BS since a subsonic round would not go 1/2 mile, nust less kill someone but he insists he is right. I just don't think so but can find nothing much on the internet.
One thing I did find which I DO NOT believe is about him shooting thru an enemy sniper's scope. That is just too hard to swallow. How did he know he shot thru the scope of the other sniper?? Did he just jump up and run up there to confirm his kill?? I just don't think so. I believe a true sniper would have just snuck away to live another day. His record was something like 90+ confirmed and 300 or so "possibles". Like, why "possibles"? Didn't some run up and see where they were shot? Who went up to see the dead sniper shot thru his scope? Hard for me to believe. Tom

UPDATE: Our local paper is now available online at: yalobushanewsonline.com You can read about NECAISE by going to NEWS - ARCHIVES - NECAISE and click on the headline. I think that is how I reached it! You can also read about all the other news in our fair city. Tom
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Comments

82 comments

Date Votes
  • David Nunn
    Your encounter proves that ownership of a Barrett .50 caliber rifle does not make one an "expert" or even an "authority," or indeed even credible. About the time he started telling me about an annual fee to own full autos and silencers is when I either laugh out loud, call him an idiot, or just politely move away, depending on his age and my mood at the time.
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  • tccox
    David, you are spot on!! I do hope to shoot his Barrett since I have half a belt of 50BMG I have had hanging around for years.
    Now this guy does have money and is fairly young (35ish). He does have problems with the law. Last month he was arrested for shooting a guy and keeping him in his barn for 3 days before taking him to hospital. Rumor is drugs are involved. Don't think money will buy him out. It seems he has access to his guns now. I just don't know. I suppose he has to be convicted before he loses his gun rights?? I just don't know. This is Mississippi and believe me, for enough money, you can buy yourself out of a heap of trouble. Tom
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  • nyforester
    quote:Originally posted by tccox
    Was talking with a local expert today whos own a Barrett 50BMG and I was talking guns with him. He said he has to pay $1500 a year for a permit to own silencers and full auto guns. He did not explain to my satisfaction why he had to pay this fee. He said such guns and silencers had to be locked up and he had to check them out or something to that effect. He still hasn't explained it to my satisfaction so maybe next time I get up with him.
    OK, about my subject. He also said that Carlos used a silencer on his rifle and loaded it to subsonic speed. I told him BS since a subsonic round would not go 1/2 mile, nust less kill someone but he insists he is right. I just don't think so but can find nothing much on the internet.
    One thing I did find which I DO NOT believe is about him shooting thru an enemy sniper's scope. That is just too hard to swallow. How did he know he shot thru the scope of the other sniper?? Did he just jump up and run up there to confirm his kill?? I just don't think so. I believe a true sniper would have just snuck away to live another day. His record was something like 90+ confirmed and 300 or so "possibles". Like, why "possibles"? Didn't some run up and see where they were shot? Who went up to see the dead sniper shot thru his scope? Hard for me to believe. Tom


    You should read the book "One Shot, One Kill" about Hathcock.
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  • jtmarine0831
    I think your local "expert" has sniffed to many fumes! I do know that he is right on with keeping the guns and silencers locked up. Any class 3 item is required by law to be secured from unauthorized access, whether that happens all the time is doubtful though. As for The White Feather ever using a silencer, that is news to me. Try a Win. Mod 70 Target with Match 30-06 munitions, no silencer. It was confirmed though that he shot an enemy sniper through his rifle scope at 500yds, total luck by his own admittance, but I can not recall right off the top of where it was that I read it. I know that the 93 confirmed part is true, even though it was not the highest count during Vietnam, it was his skill that made him so popular. I do recall that he also made one of the longest kills during the war with a scope mounted on top of a M2 50BMG, I can't seem to recall the exact range but I think it was around 2500yds. I did a research report on Hathcock here about 12 yrs. ago for school, but I think I have had to much copper solvent fumes since then for to many details. The are many links on the net about him and Sniper Central even has a tribute page still, I think.
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  • bingeebob
    nowhere in "Marine Sniper, 93 Confirmed Kills" does it mention the use of a suppresor or subsonic loads. sounds like BS to me, same with the "fees"

    however, the story where Hathcock shot the other sniper through the scope is true. he was with a LCpl Burke at the time, and apparently circumstances permitted the recovery of the other sniper's mosin nagant, with a bullet through the scope.
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  • sandwarrior
    tccox,

    The last part is true even if the first part of the guys story is nowhere near true.

    Carlos was up against the platoon leader of the sniper platoon organized specifically to get him and his snipers. During the engagement he saw a flash of light and figured it was a scope lens so he shot...also thinking at the time he may have been baited and killed just as easily. As the round passed through the scope and into the other snipers head killing him. Even though dead his body was going through the death convulsions enough so that Carlos and his partner could see he was dead. After they had gone down is when they found that the scope had been shot through. Carlos remarked that that was when he got scared the most. For the bullet to pass through he had to be looking at him, and he only realized it after the fact. A little more to the story than the general fact.
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  • tccox
    Moderators, I guess I am totally messed up tonight. How about moving this to the general forum?? I in no way meant for this to be for the experts!! Bingeebot, is still think this is BS, about the shot thru the scope. If they got there to confirm the kill, collected the rifle, this would have been the Holy Grail of sniping.
    I think this is one of the Paul Bunion tales. Makes a guy out to be greater than life.
    No, I am not trying to take anything away from a GREAT AMERICAN HERO, which is what Carlos is. I believe he should have gotten the MOH
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  • tsr1965
    As far as silenced subsonic loads go, everyone interested should check out "Cartrges of the World", under proprietry cartriges. There is a family of cartriges called the "Whisper" cartriges. they go all the way from the 6.5 micro Whisper to the 500 Whisper. They were developed by J.D.Jones of SSK Industries. As designed they shoot heavy for caliber VLD bullets, under the speed of sound(about 1080FPS). A silencer is then used to muffle the propellant gasses. the 45, and 50 caliber's hild over half of their muzzle energy, well beyond 1 mile, thanks to the VLD bullets.

    Perhaps your local expert is talking about a local, or state imposed fee, not a federal one? Do you one a silencer, or classIII weapon? I would check it out before I spoke of something I was not completely sure about.
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  • givette
    Too many variables. In two postings you have related to us the fact/possibility that he's not telling all. Thousands of dollars per year? Shot someone? Left the person to die? Illegal drug involvement???

    No Barrett is worth being caught in the proximity of such a person. The cops may be eyeballing his comings/goings even as I type this. What are you going to tell the raiding party when you are caught with him....that you're innocent?

    Disenfranchise yourself from this person. Joe
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  • bingeebob
    i believe the story is true, Hathcock never bragged about this shot, or any shot for that matter, but it is included in the book to illustrate how incredibly close he came so many times to being killed. if the round traveled through the scope tube and into the other guys eye, then he must have been aimed right at Hathcock, simply a matter of who got on the trigger first. in fact, in the book, Hathcock couldent even see the enemy sniper, just a bit of glare off the scope, and took a gamble with the shot. it was pure and simple luck, now, winning the Wimbledon cup in 65 was not luck, he was just that good.
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  • spasmcreek
    used to have a biography of hathcock & was amazed at the skill, patience, & courage of this man.....a good read for anyone here
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  • Mk 19
    All you have to do is read the book "One Shot One Kill" to get the full story about Hathcock.

    http://www.amazon.com/One-Shot-Kill/dp/0671682199/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2890518-7039056?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192583044&sr=8-1

    "Marine Sniper" is also very good:

    http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Sniper-93-Confirmed-Kills/dp/0425181650/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-2890518-7039056?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192583044&sr=8-2

    I have not yet read "Carlos Hathcock "Whitefeather" but from the reviews I will need to pick it up:

    http://www.amazon.com/Carlos-Hathcock-Whitefeather-Roy-Chandler/dp/1885633092/ref=pd_bbs_3/103-2890518-7039056?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192583044&sr=8-3

    My Dada shot with Hathcock in Vietnam and said that he was one of the most humble and honest people on the base. I also had a chance to meet him at a gunshow in the early 90's, my impression of the 5 minuts I talked to him was the same as my dad's.

    quote:One thing I did find which I DO NOT believe is about him shooting thru an enemy sniper's scope. That is just too hard to swallow. How did he know he shot thru the scope of the other sniper?? Did he just jump up and run up there to confirm his kill??

    When you see a body appear dead when there was just a glimmer of light, then you know that you got him.

    quote:Who went up to see the dead sniper shot thru his scope?

    Hathcock and his spotter both made the confermation of the kill

    quote:Like, why "possibles"? Didn't some run up and see where they were shot?

    It's a little hard to do that when you pin down an entire company of men for several hours with just you and a spotter. It is also very hard to confirm your kill after you call in artillary to kill the remaining members of the company. Things get real messy when 7 inch shells are involved.

    quote:He also said that Carlos used a silencer on his rifle and loaded it to subsonic speed.

    No, he used standard match grade ammo with no can.

    Again, read the books about him, there is no body disputing what Hathcock did and those who served with hin (like my dad) will vouch for everything that he did.
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  • cce1302
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    As far as silenced subsonic loads go, everyone interested should check out "Cartrges of the World", under proprietry cartriges. There is a family of cartriges called the "Whisper" cartriges. they go all the way from the 6.5 micro Whisper to the 500 Whisper. They were developed by J.D.Jones of SSK Industries. As designed they shoot heavy for caliber VLD bullets, under the speed of sound(about 1080FPS). A silencer is then used to muffle the propellant gasses. the 45, and 50 caliber's hild over half of their muzzle energy, well beyond 1 mile, thanks to the VLD bullets.

    Perhaps your local expert is talking about a local, or state imposed fee, not a federal one? Do you one a silencer, or classIII weapon? I would check it out before I spoke of something I was not completely sure about.


    I've mentioned JD Jones and SSK Industries several times here. I thought I was the only one that thinks the guy is a genius. He's over in Wintersville, Oh, near Wheeling. sskindustries.com is his website. He can do anything with TC or an AR.
    I have a copy of Marine Sniper: 93 confirmed Kills somewhere, and teh story of the scope shot is in there. I should try to find my book. There's also one in there about how he killed a guy on a bicycle from something like 2,000 m with a .50 cal.
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  • phillip
    Didnt Myth Busters bust the shot thru the scope story?
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  • tccox
    MK19, I am getting about as much crap from you as my local expert.
    He and his spotter can see that the bullet sent thru his scope but they can't confirm the other300 possibles?? Show me the damn scope!! OK they called in artillerty and wiped out the scene!! Why the sniper in the first place!!?? Just wipe out the place with artillery to start with. SHEESH!!!
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  • MosinNagantDisciple
    About the 1500 fee...

    Perhaps he has a manufacturers license, which allows him to make and own full auto stuff like this. I seem to recall a manufacturers license costs around 500-1500 dollars depending on the scale of production.

    Or, he could be doing that corporation/trust setup to avoid having to get CLEO signoff. That stuff costs money as well.

    Or, a more plausible answer is that he's full of crap.
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  • USMChuck
    Are you doubting the great gunny Hathcock????? He aimed at a glint of light, which was the scope. after he fired the glint went away, so he decided to go check it out. im not sure if he hit the poor meanie through the scope but im pretty sure that if he did hit the scope it probly deflected and still hit him in the head with enough velocity to kill him. Im not sure that the military used silencers in vietnam. He did however mount a scope on a .50 BMG, which was mounted on a turret, and no, he did not shoot it on full auto.
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  • Mk 19
    quote:MK19, I am getting about as much crap from you as my local expert.
    He and his spotter can see that the bullet sent thru his scope but they can't confirm the other300 possibles?? Show me the damn scope!! OK they called in artillerty and wiped out the scene!! Why the sniper in the first place!!?? Just wipe out the place with artillery to start with. SHEESH!!!

    As I stated, your questions will be answered by reading any of the 3 books I posted.
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  • bingeebob
    quote:tccox Posted - 10/16/2007 : 9:31:15 PM
    MK19, I am getting about as much crap from you as my local expert.
    He and his spotter can see that the bullet sent thru his scope but they can't confirm the other300 possibles?? Show me the damn scope!! OK they called in artillerty and wiped out the scene!! Why the sniper in the first place!!?? Just wipe out the place with artillery to start with. SHEESH!!!

    ummmmm. MK19 is refering to an entirely separate incident with the artillery. and back then, Hathcock and Burke could not confirm the kill themselves, they had to get an officer to do that, not always practical. his 93 confirmed were actually verified by an officer, he had way way more than that, probably over 300 actual kills.

    the problem at Hill 55 at the time was there was a dedicated platoon of enemy snipers causing a lot of problems, artillery was not a plausible solution, but sending Hathcock and Burke out to hunt them was, and the mosin they recovered off the dead sniper, well, Hathcock wanted to keep it as a reminder of how close he came, but the weapon was never seen again.
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  • jtmarine0831
    quote:No, I am not trying to take anything away from a GREAT AMERICAN HERO, which is what Carlos is. I believe he should have gotten the MOH

    Your definately right there tccox, he should have gotten the MOH! and I don't think that when his sniper career was ended due to the severe burns he got when he pulled the seven Marines from the burning AMTRAK bothered him that much, it got him away from having to kill anymore. And as for the MythBusters, they had an episode where they thought that they had busted the myth because "They" could not do it, but then revisited it and prove that it was possible. there is a little about the mythbusters trying on Wikipedia's section on Carlos Hathcock.

    Also another good book to read is "13 CENT KILLERS" The 5th Marine Snipers in Vietnam by John J. Culbertson, it does refernce Hathcock but give some true life stories from other notable Marine Snipershathcock.jpg
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  • tccox
    USMCchuck, If memory doesn't fail me, the Russians also had a sniper which fired thru a German sniper's scope and killed him. I am so sorry, I still cannot bring my self to believe the shot thru sniper scope to be true. Tom
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  • LesWVa
    I cant really understand the hype over Hathcock.
    Yes he is credited with 93 kills.

    But what about Sgt. Chuck Mawhinney with 103 confirmed kills and an additional 216 unconfirmed kills. He served 16 straight months in Vietnam and was sent home only because a Navy chaplain declared him combat fatigued.


    Maybe it's because

    quote:Mawhinney always figured, "war stories were for wannabes and bores." At home in Oregon, he never told even his closest friends about what he did in Vietnam.
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  • kimi
    93 Confirmed Kills pretty much covers Carlos Hathcock's Vietnam stints. If you have not read this book and you are interested in Hathcock's RVN service, it is a very good read. In addition to his confirmed 93 kills, he had "far more kills" due to combat firefights with the M-14 service rifle. I have not read this book since it was first published, and that has been awhile, so I do not recall many of the minor details, however, it is viewed as "gospel" with those in the know.
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  • br549
    please don't say anything derogatory about Gunny Hathcock or any other Marine,sniper or any Marine, soldier salior or airman who was in viet nam. haven't you people hated us long enough? Gunny Hathcock is no longer here to defend himself, you wern't there when the shot was taken,so you really don't know do you? why don't you just leave us alone.we arn't bothering you. you believe what you want, i could care less.
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  • jabronij3
    quote:Originally posted by tccox
    USMCchuck, If memory doesn't fail me, the Russians also had a sniper which fired thru a German sniper's scope and killed him. I am so sorry, I still cannot bring my self to believe the shot thru sniper scope to be true. Tom

    in the book I beieve it states that the rifle the vietnamese sniper was using that Hathcock shot thru the scope was recovered by the gunny and his spotter
    you cannot confirm all kills as some would be in inaccessible areas ie. high value target surrounded by other hostiles
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  • BarkingDog
    quote:Originally posted by tccox
    ). He does have problems with the law. Last month he was arrested for shooting a guy and keeping him in his barn for 3 days before taking him to hospital.


    what...WHAT ?!?!
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  • Laredo Lefty
    quote:Originally posted by BarkingDog
    Originally posted by tccox
    ). He does have problems with the law. Last month he was arrested for shooting a guy and keeping him in his barn for 3 days before taking him to hospital.


    tccox..... And you believe this guy?

    I agree with MK19... I also met Hathcock at one of the SOF's in the early 90's in Vegas. He signed a copy of his book for me. He was a very honest, unassuming, humble, almost shy man. He is a true legend among the Marine Sniper community as he should be.

    tccox... If you want a truck load of evidence about what Hathcock did, you just arent going to get it. So you can believe it or not..... I, for one, dont care either way.

    Also, I dont know who he is paying his fees to but I pay $357 per year for my permits for "machine guns", "short barreled" guns, "destructive devices" and "assault weapons".
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  • jtmarine0831
    quote:Sgt. Chuck Mawhinney with 103 confirmed kills and an additional 216 unconfirmed kills.

    I don't think this topic is about the kill count fellas! Mawhinney was a hell of a sniper and I will definately give him that! But what about Jim Land, Tom Casey, and the other guys from the 2/5? I think the reason Hathcock is so popular is because of his acheivements before and after the war. he did set the Marine Corps record on the "A" Course with a score of 248 points out of a possible 250, a record that stands today and held the farthest confirmed shot at 2,286 meters which he held up until 2002 when in Afganistan a three-man Canadian team beat it with a shot at 2,430 meters. And just think he was using a M2 Browning Machine Gun with an 8x Unertl scope in single fire mode, they were using a McMillian TAC-50! It doesn't matter to me what your name is or was cause I have the utmost repect for any soldier, let alone a fellow Marine Scout/Sniper!
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  • tccox
    rsr1950: "leave US alone". Who the heck is US?? I was there also. I am not picking on anyone. I am just questioning the thru the scope shot.

    Here is my last take on the subject. I am not an expert on trajectories but unless the shot is point blank, the round is going up in an arc. The longer the shot, the greater the arc. Unless the shot at scope is pointed up at the same angle, the bullet CANNOT go thru the scope from end to end. That is my take on it anyway. Tom

    About the local expert: Darryl Necase, in his 30's, supposedly has money, owned a store here (now closed) and recently ran for public office (defeated). Is now out on bond for (I believe attempted murder). He still has guns and access to guns. I Don't know how or why. Maybe he has a pretty good lawyer. Tom
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  • GUNFUNCO
    Another thing not mentioned here was that Sgt Hathcock developed MS (Multiple Sclerosis) but did not know it while he was still in Vietnam if I recall correctly.
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