Shift Seniority & Progression in a Union
Suppose the third person on the seniority list is called and asked if he wants to work. Realizing the mistake, the foreman calls the top person and asked if he also wants to work also, even through he is not needed. Does the second person have a chance to get paid for 8 while sitting at home?
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Yep, gotta go in order of seniority.
Better file a grievance.0 -
I'm a union supporter but I could not fairly support anyone but the top person being called and allowed to work. But on the other hand, there has to be WRITTEN rules agreed upon by BOTH employer and union to cover this.
Sounds like the foreman (company management and non-union) made a "company" mistake. Sometimes mistakes have a cost, even if that cost does not seem fair.
JMHO0 -
+1 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I'm a union supporter but I could not fairly support anyone but the top person being called and allowed to work. But on the other hand, there has to be WRITTEN rules agreed upon by BOTH employer and union to cover this.
Sounds like the foreman (company management and non-union) made a "company" mistake. Sometimes mistakes have a cost, even if that cost does not seem fair.
JMHO
NO offense, but I think you might make a good union president. Your opinion sounds absolute, but yet there seems to be a big gray area. The more I read it, I really don't know what you think.
Maybe I'm just stupid.0 -
would also matter if others with higher seniority were availible when they were called
as a union member and a foreman I know my union rules and always try to follow them to a T but sometimes you do screw up and you have to pay someone and you just make it right and chalk it up to experience and go on0 -
Most places I've been involved with goes by OT percentage. Low person is the first one called until job vacancy is filled. 0 -
I have been on both sides. By backing up and getting the first man, an attempt was made to correct the mistake. No arbitrator would decree to paying every one in between.
csjs, I see that there are at least two things here that we agree on.
(see signatures)0 -
There's a famous allegory regarding your situation.
Suppose there's a cage with 10 monkeys in it. In the middle of the cage is a ladder. The ladder leads up to a platform with a fresh banana hanging from the roof of the cage.
The first week, all of the monkeys would try, individually, to run up the ladder to snatch the banana. When any of them did, the entire cage would be blasted with ice cold water. Leaving all the monkeys wet, cold and pi55ed off. Soon, none of them would dare try to go up the ladder for that banana.
The second week one of the monkeys in the cage was replaced with a new monkey. Of course, the first thing the new monkey did was try to head up that ladder. This would cause all the other monkeys to beat the shyt out of him. Thus none of them would attempt to go get the banana, nor would they allow any others to try.
Week after week this goes on. A fresh monkey being placed in the cage and an older one taken out, until all the older monkeys have been replaced by new ones. Each trying once, and being beaten down by the other monkeys for doing what came naturally to them.
Soon. None of the monkeys dare try to get the banana, lest he receive a beating by the other monkeys. Yet, none of them have a clue WHY.
And THAT'S how Policy and Seniority work.
D.0 -
quote:Originally posted by AZEX
There's a famous allegory regarding your situation.
Suppose there's a cage with 10 monkeys in it. In the middle of the cage is a ladder. The ladder leads up to a platform with a fresh banana hanging from the roof of the cage.
The first week, all of the monkeys would try, individually, to run up the ladder to snatch the banana. When any of them did, the entire cage would be blasted with ice cold water. Leaving all the monkeys wet, cold and pi55ed off. Soon, none of them would dare try to go up the ladder for that banana.
The second week one of the monkeys in the cage was replaced with a new monkey. Of course, the first thing the new monkey did was try to head up that ladder. This would cause all the other monkeys to beat the shyt out of him. Thus none of them would attempt to go get the banana, nor would they allow any others to try.
Week after week this goes on. A fresh monkey being placed in the cage and an older one taken out, until all the older monkeys have been replaced by new ones. Each trying once, and being beaten down by the other monkeys for doing what came naturally to them.
Soon. None of the monkeys dare try to get the banana, lest he receive a beating by the other monkeys. Yet, none of them have a clue WHY.
And THAT'S how Policy and Seniority work.
D.
[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]
See!?!? This is why we don't let monkeys form Unions!
[:p]0 -
Way it worked in my union: #1 gets the job. #2 gets nothing, unless he files a grievance. #3 gets minimum call-in, if he agreed to work. 0 -
I am a Teamster, Local 653.
And if there is overtime offered, the senior guy has first pick.
If number 14 works the sixth day and 1-13 were not asked.
Then 1-13 get paid overtime to sit home that day.
(as long as they are not scheduled to work)
They must be asked starting with number one (as long as he isn't scheduled anyway) and so one.
If they all refuse the OT they number 14 gets to work[;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sith Lord
I am a Teamster, Local 653.
And if there is overtime offered, the senior guy has first pick.
If number 14 works the sixth day and 1-13 were not asked.
Then 1-13 get paid overtime to sit home that day.
(as long as they are not scheduled to work)
They must be asked starting with number one (as long as he isn't scheduled anyway) and so one.
If they all refuse the OT they number 14 gets to work[;)]
I am a member of CWA local 1298 and this is how it works in our union too. If they call the wrong person down the overtime list (our rules state that they can call the guy with the least overtime first), everyone who got "skipped over" can file a grievance and they will get 8 hours of overtime for that day.
As to the guy in the middle, he might be out of luck, but i'd definitely ask your union rep about it and file a grievance if there is a shot at getting the pay. There might be.
For those of you who are not union and reading this, it isn't about taking free money (though we would never turn that down :P ), it's about making the company follow the rules that they signed in the contract, and making them accountable if they don't. It is an effective way to make them follow them correctly the next time if they have to pay the guys who get skipped over.0 -
Having worked as a supervisor in more than one union environment, I think it's crazy ironic how "it's not about taking free money" and "just making management comply by the rules they agreed to."
But as soon as Supervision tries and enforce the same agreed upon rules on the employees (abusing break periods, socializing instead of working, sneaking in an unauthorized smoke, etc.), all of a sudden it's a Union Issue, and they're there to defend the POS employee to the death.
It's not a buffet: you can't pick and choose you want to enforce upon management and/or the employees. If you want to play by the rules, I'm holding you to it! you want to be paid for 8 hours of work? I expect you to earn it by WORKING THE WHOLE 8 HOURS! (Including authorized breaks, of course.[;)])
*steps off soap box*0 -
It would definately depend on your contract. We have in the contract that admin must call the next in line on senority list for planned OT, but if they fail to do so the contract holds no enforcement action. Basically if you get skipped and file a greivance they say, Oops! we'll try not to skip yu next time. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandLoad
Way it worked in my union: #1 gets the job. #2 gets nothing, unless he files a grievance. #3 gets minimum call-in, if he agreed to work.
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And this is why all the jobs are leaving the country,let the best worker work and the hell with senioity,if the older guys complain tell them to work better of find a new job,having to offer extra to someone just because he was there longer or having to pay him to sit on his ass at home is exactly why many jobs are leaving this country,companies can not make money having to pay worthless workers 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I'm a union supporter but I could not fairly support anyone but the top person being called and allowed to work. But on the other hand, there has to be WRITTEN rules agreed upon by BOTH employer and union to cover this.
Sounds like the foreman (company management and non-union) made a "company" mistake. Sometimes mistakes have a cost, even if that cost does not seem fair.
JMHO
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NO offense, but I think you might make a good union president. Your opinion sounds absolute, but yet there seems to be a big gray area. The more I read it, I really don't know what you think.
Maybe I'm just stupid.
Nah, your're not stupid. I was trying to say that regardless of that outcome (or any union job outcome) it is probably covered in the employer/employee union contract agreement. A contract that is freely agreed to both by the company and the employees. And just as with the written rules of our US Constitution, rules should be followed until they are changed.
So if most people would agree that one or two employees were going to unfairly get paid, as long as the rules are followed, those people should get paid. At least if the problem was orginally caused by the foreman (company executive) making a mistake.
Mistake usually have a cost0 -
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
Suppose the third person on the seniority list is called and asked if he wants to work. Realizing the mistake, the foreman calls the top person and asked if he also wants to work also, even through he is not needed. Does the second person have a chance to get paid for 8 while sitting at home?
......and unions wonder why the jobs go to non-union better paid management appreciated employee happy shops.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sith Lord
I am a Teamster, Local 653.
And if there is overtime offered, the senior guy has first pick.
If number 14 works the sixth day and 1-13 were not asked.
Then 1-13 get paid overtime to sit home that day.
(as long as they are not scheduled to work)
They must be asked starting with number one (as long as he isn't scheduled anyway) and so one.
If they all refuse the OT they number 14 gets to work[;)]
My company operated the same way. That's why the head Corporate Labor negotiator is now in the unemployment line and the latest contract was signed by Ming Wei Chun0 -
Unions have outlived their usefullness. They did great things for blue coller workers in the 1930s thru 1950s. But in today's world with Equal Rights, Worker's compensation laws, Anti-Discrimination laws, minimum wage laws, and lawyers around every corner looking for clients with a case, unions are redundant. They have become too powerful. Unions are the reason American jobs have been outsourced to other countries. Unions have driven up the cost of producing goods in the USA. It is absolutely insane that a tire builder should make $25 per hour, get ten paid holidays per year, 5 weeks paid vacation, paid funeral leave, paid jury duty leave, time and one half overtime, coupons for free tires, and better medical coverage than his management boss. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by bigtire
Unions have outlived their usefullness. They did great things for blue coller workers in the 1930s thru 1950s. But in today's world with Equal Rights, Worker's compensation laws, Anti-Discrimination laws, minimum wage laws, and lawyers around every corner looking for clients with a case, unions are redundant. They have become too powerful. Unions are the reason American jobs have been outsourced to other countries. Unions have driven up the cost of producing goods in the USA. It is absolutely insane that a tire builder should make $25 per hour, get ten paid holidays per year, 5 weeks paid vacation, paid funeral leave, paid jury duty leave, time and one half overtime, coupons for free tires, and better medical coverage than his management boss.
Why not? The worker is doing the work, the manager is just licking his nuts.0 -
Please don't blame the unions and laborers for the jobs being sent over seas. You can blame the corporations for that, and and their greediness for the dollar. They have moved their labor force so they don't have to pay those foreigner's a decent wage. They can have them build their junk for pennies on the dollars and since they have a huge grasp on our goverment, they don't have to pay the tariffs to import their crap. Those American companies that do still have their workers here will use any excuse to fire or get rid of the American workers and hire illegals. There is no time for families anymore as the corporations insure that their employee's work every weekend and holiday that come around. The old way of taking care of the employee and they'll take care of you has gone out the window. Now it's more like forced labor, and if you don't work by our guidelines, your outta here, because there are millions of illegals in line to do your work for half the cost. There is no middle income anymore. You are either rich and greedy and don't care about anything but that dollar, or poor getting poorer and working harder. Corporations have taken away the family values for the holy dollar. Remember Blue Sunday's when everything was closed except the hospital. Companies are paying less while it takes more than one income to make ends meet. There's little johnny sitting at hope playing crap on his Xbox, ruining his mind, because Mom and Dad have to work. They can't even go to church on Sundays, because some ass hat wants them to open up the store for that dollar. All this makes me sick. I hate corporations and large companies that abuse their employees. You'll never see the big wigs working weekends or holidays, but they force you to. At least the Unions try to keep some workplace values, buy requesting fair wages, and setting workplace rules, that way you aren't working 80 hr weeks for $7.50 per hour.
I am a very conservative thinker, but I can't stand it when employees are robbed and over worked by their employers, and the kids are on their own to raise themselves.0 -
Exactly my point. Unions promote a victim mentality. The all powerfull corporation is sticking it to the helpless workers. Corporations exist to make money, period. Its loyalty to workers evaporated the first time workers ever went on strike. Since the first strike an adversarial relationship has existed. So why shouldn't companies move plants overseas where they can make a profit? Companies will choose the route which makes them the most money. They have stock holders that demand profits. If you own stock that includes you! What would you do with stock that was not doing well or even loosing money? You'd sell it. If enough people sell the stock then the stock becomes worthless and the company eventually goes under. 0 -
Well put Sarge. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by bigtire
Its loyalty to workers evaporated the first time workers ever went on strike. Since the first strike an adversarial relationship has existed.
They drew first blood.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MT357
They drew first blood.
So you are holding a grudge for something that happened before you were born?
Again... The victim mentality shows.
What other social group holds a grudge from a time before they were born? What other social group thinks another group is "keeping them down"? How well has it worked for them? Only the ones who have broken out of that victim mentality have made something of themselves. You'll get nowhere in life by expecting something for nothing, or thinking someone owes you a living.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sarge_3ad
Corporations have taken away the family values for the holy dollar. Remember Blue Sunday's when everything was closed except the hospital. Companies are paying less while it takes more than one income to make ends meet. There's little johnny sitting at hope playing crap on his Xbox, ruining his mind, because Mom and Dad have to work. They can't even go to church on Sundays, because some ass hat wants them to open up the store for that dollar.
I do agree that Sundays everyone should be closed, but we support that. If we all stopped going out on Sundays and holidays the place would not be open for lack of customers That used to kill me on Thanksgiving and Christmas when i worked a gas station. People would come in and load up with groceries and gas and snacks and then when paying they would say "It's terrible that they make you work a holiday."
As for little Johnny sitting at home playing X-box, if people stayed with budget and didn't go buying every new thing they might not need two jobs. I know a family with 7 kids, one in college and only the dad works. mom stays at home raising the kids. they don't have an X-box, five cars, latest everything. They have taught their kids to work though. The kids get jobs if they want extra.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bigtire
Exactly my point. Unions promote a victim mentality. The all powerfull corporation is sticking it to the helpless workers. Corporations exist to make money, period. Its loyalty to workers evaporated the first time workers ever went on strike. Since the first strike an adversarial relationship has existed. So why shouldn't companies move plants overseas where they can make a profit? Companies will choose the route which makes them the most money. They have stock holders that demand profits. If you own stock that includes you! What would you do with stock that was not doing well or even loosing money? You'd sell it. If enough people sell the stock then the stock becomes worthless and the company eventually goes under.
So how many billions do these greedy basturds need to make? Where are the American Values there? It's not about the American way anymore, as there is no pride in this country at the top. Families are being ripped apart by having to work all the time. Kids are left to those liberal educators to be raised and brain washed. This is where you get your rise in the crime and drug levels, and the whiners who look for handouts. There is a big picture that alot of people over look. While they are destroying America, they are also putting money into those foriegn economies, and soon those countries, like communist China will be the super power, and come over and kick our ass, until we behave like good little defenseless commies. This country needs to start thinking about it's workers again. Tell those greedy basturds at the top of those corporations that it's fine if you take your manufacturing out of the country, but you will pay such a high tariff to get it back in that it won't be worth it. Tear up all free trade agreement's and close our border's. Bring back the blue laws, so families have time to worship together and spend time with each other. The kids will be better off raised by mom and dad. This country is being destroyed for one reason and that's the dollar. We don't need all that foriegn crap, as we can build it better here. Also, it's not the goverment who is running this country it's the big corporations.0 -
Sarge, (and the others) : Big Government is just as much to blame for the move overseas. Here's How:
I was supervisor of a Union Shop, and saw all the waste of the Management/Union battles, but Government requires all kinds of reports, paperwork, practices, and equipment that makes the "overhead" of operating just too expensive. Most of the requirements are the fruits of the Management/Union battles. When a situation arises, the Union starts screaming about workplace safety, and exacts its revenge in money and workrules. When Management is attacked (fairly or UNFAIRLY), they cannot agrue safety, and then when Government (or a mediator) comes up with a requirement or solution, all parties must agree to it. This makes for more $afety regulation$, new training requirement$, rede$igned tool$, tougher reporting requirement$, etc, ad nauseum. The result of this long running pi$$ing match between the Unions and the Management of U.S. Companies makes the low wages, less regulated, and less safe working conditions of other nations look better and better to the MBAs that direct the growth and expansion of the businesses. They make the rational choices to stay in business by outsourcing instead of being choked to death by regulations, rising wages and more job rules, fines and new manpower requirements driven by Government and Union demands.
Ya can't just solely blame the "Greedy Corporations", or only the "Featherbedding" Unions, or just "Government Regulations" - they each form one leg of the "Fire Triangle" that is driving our jobs and money offshore. If the three parties don't come up with another way to resolve/protect/direct problem resolutions, we are all going to be selling pencils on the street corner.
And to add, Lawyers are mercenaries that prop up the claims of whomever hired their services. Lawyers don't help, they just help the process get more expensive.0 -
I expect to get a butt chewing thursday morning by the superintendent for making this screwup. I've ran the scenario by 4 people. All of them say #2 person should get paid. I say that is pyramiding. I recall a similiar situation 4 years ago happened in the maintenance department and only the top guy got paid, but I don't think this wil be the case this time. In any case, it was a big screwup and the circumstances leading up to it are irrelevant. 0
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