Kein... nicht Gott... gerade ein Luftwaffe Pilot!
Well, girls and boys - it was a great Friday - a lot
of fun and even some profit!
Every good day should end in a treat ... something
that makes one feel satisfied until sleep carries you
off to a better place!
Here's a most unusual story. This one should be read a
round the world. 'God' shows up in the form of a German
pilot.
A B-17 War Story:
]
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the
379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England . His B-17
was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having
been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged
and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead
of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named
Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the
B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his
eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad
state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and
the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top
of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes
everywhere .
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the
stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England!
He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.
When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie
Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but
were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe
pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found.
He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in th e USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion, together with
25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns
that day.
]
... I just love days, and stories, with happy endings!
[:D][:D][:D]
of fun and even some profit!
Every good day should end in a treat ... something
that makes one feel satisfied until sleep carries you
off to a better place!
Here's a most unusual story. This one should be read a
round the world. 'God' shows up in the form of a German
pilot.
A B-17 War Story:
]
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the
379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England . His B-17
was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having
been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged
and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead
of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named
Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the
B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his
eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad
state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and
the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top
of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes
everywhere .
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the
stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England!
He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.
When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie
Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but
were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe
pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found.
He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in th e USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion, together with
25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns
that day.
]
... I just love days, and stories, with happy endings!
[:D][:D][:D]
0
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Great story.
But, I believe there were only ten crewmen on the B17.0 -
What a great story.[:)] 0 -
--
-War has been described as "chaos", which is true.
However, wars used to be fought by men with strength, courage and some measure of dignity and respect for life.
That can't be said today.0 -
Wolf,
I'd say it's true of our men and women in the military.
Our opponents, not so much so, but nothing's perfect.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Great story.
But, I believe there were only ten crewmen on the B17.
There were, but take into consideration any children and grand children the surviving crew members had.0 -
That story never gets old, Zip, thank you. 0 -
Great story! 0 -
Selbst im Krieg gibt es ehrenwerte manner. 0 -
Das ist zutreffend!
[:D]0 -
Wolf - You are talking out your ass.
Doug0 -
The Germans were the last honorable enemy we fought.
(They weren't that honorable to the Jews, Gypsies and homos, but they had some real professional, honorable men in their ranks)
D.0 -
auch du leiber! 0 -
Great story.
My dad had a high degree of respect for German soldiers.0 -
My grandfather also respected the Germans but hated the British with a passion. He passed away before ever telling us why. 0 -
This is a warm and fuzzy story but I am afraid it sets off alarm bells on my BS meter. There are too many things that are wrong about the story to detail each of them but suppose you change the nationalities involved. Make it an RAF pilot during the Blitz & see how true it rings.
Notice they talk about lives saved but don't consider German civilians that would be killed on future missions which I am sure any German pilot would have thought of.
If the story really is true then I would consider the pilot to be contempable not a good guy. That would be treason under anyones definition.0 -
My Grandpa flew 48 missions with that unit (379th Bomb Group) as a F.E./Top turret gunner. Next time I talk to him I'll try and remember to ask if he knows about that story. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Pa.Bill
My grandfather also respected the Germans but hated the British with a passion. He passed away before ever telling us why.
Did your Grandpa hail from Ireland?
That would explain a lot0 -
quote:Originally posted by AZEX
The Germans were the last honorable enemy we fought.
(They weren't that honorable to the Jews, Gypsies and homos, but they had some real professional, honorable men in their ranks)
D.
For the most part the Germans followed the Geneva Convention with US and British airman who were shot down over Germany and occupied Europe.
They didn't with the Soviet POW's.
Flip side, the Germans in Allied POW camps got humane treatment..
Germans in Soviet POW camps..well, different story0 -
quote:Originally posted by gruntled
This is a warm and fuzzy story but I am afraid it sets off alarm bells on my BS meter. There are too many things that are wrong about the story to detail each of them but suppose you change the nationalities involved. Make it an RAF pilot during the Blitz & see how true it rings.
Notice they talk about lives saved but don't consider German civilians that would be killed on future missions which I am sure any German pilot would have thought of.
If the story really is true then I would consider the pilot to be contempable not a good guy. That would be treason under anyones definition.
Try this one on your BS meter then:
German submariners, early in WWII, would surface after torpedoing a ship and give charts and provisions to the sailors. It was only after British aircraft straffed them during these humanitarian acts that the Germans stopped exposing themselves and allowed the allied sailors to perish. These facts are undisputed by either side.0 -
Without getting into the chivalry of the Germans or Japanese, much of the compassion they showed near the end of the war was an attempt to avoid the hangman. 0 -
quote:gruntled:
This is a warm and fuzzy story but I am afraid it sets off alarm bells on my BS meter. There are too many things that are wrong about the story to detail each of them but suppose you change the nationalities involved. Make it an RAF pilot during the Blitz & see how true it rings.
No offence intended, BUT, if you have ever read much - talked to W.W.II airmen from both Germany and the U.S. - you would know that there was a tremendous amount of respect given to American airmen during the war by the Luftwaffe. Matter of fact, Goering begged Hitler NOT to execute 50 of the American airmen who escaped from Stalag Luft III (Stammlager Luft, or Permanent Camp for Airmen #3), near Sagan, in Poland, 1944. He, Hermann Goering reportedly wept when the orders were carried out. Your BS Meter would probably picked that up too ... but ... alas, some reading would solve the problem.
quote:
Notice they talk about lives saved but don't consider German civilians that would be killed on future missions which I am sure any German pilot would have thought of.
If the story really is true then I would consider the pilot to be contempable not a good guy. That would be treason under anyones definition.
... and he saw it - I suppose - as murder. There have been many instances where individuals had decided not commit (what they saw as) murder- and of course others
who had no such scruples and did in fact kill helpless combatants. It is apparent that what
you consider "contemptible" and "treasonable" was not to him ... I imagine he saw it as an act of mercy - or perhaps something he didn't want to live with for the rest of his life. I also think, second guessing, that he'd as happily have shot the crap out of that 17, had it been a fair fight - probably as brave as any - and would have cheered as it went down if it had been a fair fight.
He may have seen the handwriting on the wall - taking another flight crew late in a losing war may have also played a factor in his decision. I doubt an ordinary fighter pilot feared he was destined for an American gallows. America never had a history of that ... militarily.
Too bad, we'll never know.
... I wondered the same thing, myself, but 'having not flown that mile' in his flight boots,
I don't find myself in a position to judge. I do admire the man, though.0 -
Last word on the subject - I forgot to post.
[8D]
Dogpile:
http://www.dogpile.com/dogpile/ws/results/Web/Franz Steigler/1/417/TopNavigation/Relevance/iq=true/zoom=off/_iceUrlFlag=7?_IceUrl=true0 -
zipperzap...Very well said.
While I don't have the specifics readily at hand there was a similar story of a German soldier tending a badly wounded GI in late 1944. American soldiers came on the German and the wounded GI and captured the German. They realized that he could have easily escaped had he let the American die and they gave the German the choice of surrendering and being out of the war or going back to his unit. He chose to go back to his unit and they let him go!!!! What dirty traitors they were to the United States to let an enemy soldier go back to his unit to kill other Americans. Those Americans should have been shot and castrated????....I don't think so.....they were showing mercy to a fellow human being who had shown mercy to one of theirs.Beach0 -
some more details:
The bombers began their 10-minute bomb run at 27,300 feet, the temperature: negative 60 degrees. Flak was heavy and accurate. Before "bombs away," Brown's B-17 took hits that shattered the Plexiglas nose, knocked out the number two engine, damaged number four--which frequently had to be throttled back to prevent overspeeding--and caused undetermined damage to the controls. Coming off target, Lieutenant Brown was unable to stay with the formation and became a straggler.
Almost immediately, the lone and limping B-17 came under a series of attacks from 12 to 15 Bf-109s and FW-190s that lasted for more than 10 minutes. The number three engine was hit and would produce only half power. Oxygen, hydraulic, and electrical systems were damaged, and the controls were only partially responsive. The bomber's 11 defensive guns were reduced by the extreme cold to only the two top turret guns and one forward-firing nose gun. The tailgunner was killed and all but one of the crew in the rear incapacitated by wounds or exposure to the frigid air. Lieutenant Brown took a bullet fragment in his right shoulder.
Charlie Brown figured the only chance of surviving this pitifully unequal battle was to go on the offensive. Each time a wave of attackers approached, he turned into them, trying to disrupt their aim with his remaining firepower. The last thing oxygen-starved Brown remembers was reversing a steep turn, becoming inverted, and looking "up" at the ground. When he regained full consciousness, the B-17 was miraculously level at less than 1,000 feet.
Still partially dazed, Lieutenant Brown began a slow climb with only one engine at full power. With three seriously injured aboard, he rejected bailing out or a crash landing. The alternative was a thin chance of reaching the UK. While nursing the battered bomber toward England, Brown looked out the right window and saw a Bf-109 flying on his wing. The pilot waved, then flew across the B-17's nose and motioned Brown to land in Germany, which the aircraft commander refused to do. After escorting them for several miles out over the North Sea, the Luftwaffe pilot saluted, rolled over, and disappeared. Why had he not shot them down? The answer did not emerge for many years.
The B-17 did make it across 250 miles of storm-tossed North Sea and landed at Seething near the English coast, home of the 448th Bomb Group, which had not yet flown its first mission. The crew was debriefed on their mission, including the strange encounter with the Bf-109. For unknown reasons, the debriefing was classified "secret" and remained so for many years. Lieutenant Brown went on to complete a combat tour, finish college, accept a regular commission, and serve in the Office of Special Investigations, with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and in other Air Force and State Department assignments until his retirement. He now lives in Miami, Fla., where he is founder and president of an energy and environmental research center.
The image of his strange encounter with the Bf-109 remained firmly embedded in Charlie Brown's memory. In 1986, he began a search for the anonymous pilot. Finally, in 1990, former Oberleutnant Franz Stigler, now living in Canada, responded to a notice published in a newsletter for German fighter pilots. By comparing time, place, and aircraft markings, it was determined that Stigler was the chivalrous pilot who had allowed Brown's crew to live. Not surprisingly, Brown and Stigler have become close friends.
On that December day in 1943, there had been two persuasive reasons why Stigler should have shot down the B-17. First, earlier in the day, he had downed two four-engine bombers and needed only one more that day to earn a Knight's Cross. Second, his decision to not finish off the aircraft was a court-martial offense in Nazi Germany and if revealed could have led to his execution. He considered these alternatives while flying formation with the B-17, "the most heavily damaged aircraft I ever saw that was still flying." He could see the wounded aboard and thought, "I cannot kill these half-dead people. It would be like shooting at a parachute."
Franz Stigler's act of chivalry has been justly, though belatedly, honored by several military organizations here and abroad. On the other hand, Charles Brown was not decorated for his heroism over Germany, which never was reported by the 448th Bomb Group at Seething to his commanders. Such are the fortunes of war and its aftermath.
Interview with Franz Stigler and many more interesting details on this link:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Stigler.html
zipperzap: Ich spreche etwas Deutsch, aber was bedeutet "gerade?"0 -
My late father was a Son of Bitche and a proud member of the Century (100th) Division. Circumstances, even though he was an officer, led him to be forward of the lines often. His duties involved planning the emplacement of new gun positions as allied lines advanced, flight time as a FO, and finally actually being the point man for the unit as the war closed. This involved being flown into any spot where a Cub could land close to a town that would be occupied within the next 24 hours, seeking out the mayor, making necessary arrangements for billeting men, and informing local leaders of what would take place under military government.
During this period my dad had more than a little contact with German civilians and German military. He related that he was most scared by the arrival of a set of jack boots as he spoke to the mayor of a town some 20 miles in front of his unit. It turned out to be a German officer offering his surrender. I have that officers Luger today.
My dad was sickened by having to shell Heilbron (sp?) with phosphorus.
Any movement, a cigarette lighted, anything and his orders were to rain white phosphorus on the suspect positions. He was well aware of what that stuff would do to a man. He hated it.
There was an incident of having been battery commander when a small group of German soldiers were spotted some distance away. He called fire, then ordered it halted before any were hit. He was later called on the carpet for having given the cease fire command but he never regretted his decision. "Three or four men... Scared to death... Doing their duty... The war all but over... No possible harm to us... I wouldn't murder them!"
This the same man who during the Bulge took part in towing a 105mm gun to the top of a hill to set up on a small town hotel where they knew the Germans would billet. They bore-sighted on the hotel and missed. My dad always laughed when he remembered what kind of attention a 105 shell draws when it bounces down the street. The next round was on target. Again there was laughter as he recalled German officers pouring out of the hotel... But he knew that men died.
Two shots and they decided to get out of Dodge. Probably a good move!
I guess that what I'm trying to say is that even in war there can be honor and dignity. War brings out the worst in mankind, yet sometimes also the best. A gentleman does not murder a helpless enemy. Especially not after he's looked into the other's eyes and seen the carnage. Not when he realizes that there, but for the grace of God, might go he.
The above threads don't surprise me at all. I suspect that many such instances took place. Many acts of humanity probably have gone to the graves of old men untold. Men caught in circumstances not of their own making. Men honorably doing their respective duties. Good men on both sides who could only go just so far in war before their humanity took over.
My father never spoke badly of the Germans, though I suspect he never had any direct contact with SS units. Probably only regular army. He stated many times that each was doing his duty and that it wasn't a personal business in his opinion.
My dad always praised the Germans for keeping their word. As with the surrendering officer above, he was ordered to make himself available to the mayor when our units arrived the following day. My dad fully expected he would and he did.
As to the Japanese... Luckily the war ended. My father was convinced that there could have been no expectation of humanity from that enemy. An entirely different war there.0 -
quote:"I cannot kill these half-dead people. It would be like shooting at a parachute."
Interesting quote - that pretty much explains it, as far as I'm concerned.
Pretty much confirms my suspicions.
I think nord pretty well nailed it with his reflections on the subject. Total war
calls for no exceptions, ever. Shooting men in parachutes, even though often
done by ground troops (both sides) was rarely practised by airmen - except
for the Russians, they were promised a bullet upon their return if they didn't
comply).
There were/are many accounts of 'treasonous men' - according to some here -
who probably would shoot the defenceless in their chutes.
It wouldn't be my choice - probably not even at 18.
... but then again, for those not there, who knows?0 -
Russians shooting Germans in parachutes is another myth. It did happen but was rare as was Germans shooting Russians in parachutes.
Rumors were rampet and some have become "fact" when they were false but to those convinced they will always be true.
In doing mods for video games I have done much historic research in both aerial and naval areas and sifting through the BS is the hardest part.
One great story was on the Murmansk convoys, a horrid affair even if the Germans never fired a shot.
Seaman were warned if their ship was sunk U-Boats would surface and machine gun them to death.
When a particular ship was sunk the survivors knew they were doomed to a horrible death as the U-Boat surfaced.
To their surprise the captain asked them "Are you communist?", they stood dumbfounded and he repeated the question to which one man yelled back "NO!!"
The captain then asked; "Why are you fighting for the communist, you should be fighting with us!"
The dumbfoundness turn to disbelief but the captain then asked if anyone was hurt. He apologized for sinking their ship only asking its name, tonnage and cargo then apologized for not being able to rescue them but gave them blankets a compass and some schnapps with directions to the nearest island.
Other U-Boat men waved and smiled and the Yanks realized these Germans were stuck out here like them just doing their duty.
This story was told by a Jewish American and I have to believe he had no reason to say anything good about any German at that time unless it was true.
But, I am sure the all Americans are good all enemies are war criminals gang will trash this report as well.
As for the Germans being prone to war crimes in combat it was the Brits that did far more in that regard at least what I have learned from extensive research. The Germans stuck to the U-Boat rules until they had no choice because the Brits ignore any and all of them.
One such aerial Brit incident was the survivors of a Ju88 attacking Malta that took to their dingy found a Spitfire pilot deciding the excellent air sea rescue of the Luftwaffe would have these lads back in the fight next day strafed them to death not realizing another Brit, this one with a conscience, was watching.
He was ordered to never speak of it and the killer was patted on the back and given a medal.
Was he right to kill them?
They would certainly be back in another bomber hammering Malta had he not.
Worse than any were the Maltese civilians, they were brutal and the British realized they had to mount prompt rescue missions to save German and Italian pilots from horrible deaths.
One incident bears mentioning.
Three survivors of a SM79 Italian bomber made it to a ledge on the coast with sheer cliffs rising above it.
The men waved at their victorious RAF fighter as he circled and he radioed HQ of the precarious situation.
The locals had other ideas and threw boulders down on the men who had no way of escaping smashing them to an agonizing death.
The RAF found their mangles remains.
The Maltese treated the Italians far worse than the Germans as they felt betrayed by their neighbors with the air attacks.
Wulfmann0 -
Here's one I posted elsewhere a while back - actually pertaining to a GUN! LOL
I wrote:
I used to enjoy collecting a good pistol or rifle with a good story that goes along
with it. The Mauser HSc - .32ACP - is one that I've had for almost as long as I
can remember. I think it was given to me in payment for some work that I did in
my early 20's.
It's history was rather dramatic, and tragic, for the (what I imagine was) the original
owner.
In 1940, there was a 'blitz' going on over England and at one (early) point it was
being carried on by the Luftwaffe on an around the clock basis. This HSc was
carried by one of a Heinkle bomber's flight crew, who on the night of June 21,
1942, while bombing outside of Newtown, England, found himself losing
altitude and on fire - apparently having been shot down either by one of the
local anti-aircraft batteries or by the RAF.
Back in Germany, by about 1938, Mauser had made/was making the little HSc's
as a stand-in for the Walther PP and the PPS. Reichmarshall Hermann Goering -
an avid gun enthusiast/collector - had taken a liking to the little HSc's - .32ACP -
and directed all production to be distributed to his Luftwaffe aircrews.
This little HSc was riding aboard, on a crewman, in a shoulder holster (long lost
before I ever got the gun), aboard a Heinkel He 111!
The man who stripped it off the ("grievously") injured airman was the cousin to
the American B17 pilot who brought it home - to the brother of the pilot, who
had been killed in a traffic accident (here in San Diego) in the mid-1960's
(following this?). His wife, asked me if I wanted it for some clean out/hauling
away some trash out of their garage.
She showed me the letter that described the history of the little pistol - I didn't
ask for it - but I never forgot any of it.
The Heinkel crash landed between "two cottages," plastering the garden between
them up upon the wall of one. The soil, "being of a clay-like consistency, after a
rainfall," had allowed the "garden to stick perfectly inverted on the wall," as to
expose the roots of all of the small vegetables!
The wreckage was burning, and without hesitation (I suppose not giving any
thought that the bomber might be still full of bombs), the village men ran
up to the "grievously injured German," carried him back to the burning
wreckage, and threw him in. Somewhere in between picking him up and
throwing him back into the burning wreckage, the little HSc was
recovered/saved by the English cousin - who, in turn, later gave it to his
cousin, the 8th Air Force pilot.
I thought that seemed a little unlikely that civilised English would do that,
but was reassured that indeed, it did happen. In this case, I was told, a
buzz bomb (V1) bomb had landed next to a school killing, injuring and maiming
some children a year prior to the Heinkle crash and it was not uncommon,
for, after all, those German airmen were indiscriminately killing innocent
women and children every day. Later that was also verified by some English
friends of our family who were there during the Blitz.
So, there you have it!
And, the little HSc shooter shoots as well and as accurately as any of my other
.32ACP's that I have ... it came with a whopper of a story!
I like that!
End story.
... anyway, thought it might be appropo. I'm pretty sure it wasn't an isolated
case. I've already related a story, here, told to us - when I was a kid - about
the only one out of a B-17 (bombardier) who was almost hung by irate German
citizens. John Roeton worked for my dad in the 1960 at NASA. That too, was a
whopper of a story!
[8D]0 -
You are mixing up acts of mercy to individuals & helping a combat aircraft (a heavy bomber at that) return.
Suppose a submarine was forced to surface & then the destroyer captain decided to not only allow it to escape but actually escorted it to safety? After all the submarine & it's crew were helpless & it would be unsportsman like to kill them.0 -
No mix up at all!
After one has looked into another man's eyes... After there's been personal contact... Then a decision whether to murder in the name of war, or perhaps do what conscience dictates.
The submarine scenario... Should the submarine have surfaced without presenting any offensive inclinations, then I'd likely have tried to rescue fellow sailors if at all possible. I'd also have done my best to capture the boat. Should the submarine have refused to come to heel, then I'd have happily sent her and her crew to the bottom. That's war.
The B-17... No offense left, wounded crew, a pilot struggling to maintain flight. At that point there becomes a question of whether the B-17 is any longer the enemy. Would my conscience allow me to shoot this plane down after I'd made contact with the crew? No!
So then a decision... Force the B-17 to land? If I did, then I'd burden already thin resources in my own country with wounded prisoners. Or perhaps I'd force a crash and damage German assets. Neither a good choice.
Alternatively, I could escort the B-17 to the North Sea. Whatever happened past that point would be out of my control. The one thing in my control was not having the murder of a crew on my conscience.
The difference being that an anonymous B-17 bristling with guns and bombs is fair game in war. What happens happens. This B-17 had no war left in her.
When you're perhaps forced to parachute because of damage an enemy has inflicted upon you, or he's become a non-combatant due to damage you've inflicted, then the game changes. There comes a point where you're not any longer at war.
Gentlemen doing duty for their respective nations come to this at times. The bravest choose not to kill at some point. They choose this because there is a fine line between war and murder. Thank God some know this.0
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