Kein... nicht Gott... gerade ein Luftwaffe Pilot!
Well, girls and boys - it was a great Friday - a lot
of fun and even some profit!
Every good day should end in a treat ... something
that makes one feel satisfied until sleep carries you
off to a better place!
Here's a most unusual story. This one should be read a
round the world. 'God' shows up in the form of a German
pilot.
A B-17 War Story:
]
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the
379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England . His B-17
was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having
been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged
and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead
of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named
Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the
B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his
eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad
state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and
the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top
of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes
everywhere .
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the
stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England!
He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.
When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie
Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but
were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe
pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found.
He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in th e USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion, together with
25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns
that day.
]
... I just love days, and stories, with happy endings!
[:D][:D][:D]
of fun and even some profit!
Every good day should end in a treat ... something
that makes one feel satisfied until sleep carries you
off to a better place!
Here's a most unusual story. This one should be read a
round the world. 'God' shows up in the form of a German
pilot.
A B-17 War Story:
]
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the
379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England . His B-17
was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having
been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged
and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead
of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named
Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the
B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his
eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad
state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and
the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top
of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes
everywhere .
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the
stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England!
He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.
When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie
Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but
were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe
pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found.
He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in th e USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion, together with
25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns
that day.
]
... I just love days, and stories, with happy endings!
[:D][:D][:D]
0
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nord, I agree with you in principle, except I don't believe the line between war and murder is all that fine. I'm glad the German chose not to shoot the B-17, and if I had been on that aircraft I'd buy him the best surf and turf available and all he wanted of whatever he's drinking.
Faced with the same situation I might have done the same. However, gruntled is correct. Your first priority in war is to destroy the enemy's capacity to wage war. This includes destruction of any assets used by the enemy or in support of the enemy to conduct war. The most valuable asset on that aircraft was personnel. Then there is the aircraft itself. Upon return the Maintenance/Operations officer will repair the aircraft and return it to service if possible. if that isn't possible, he will cannibalize the aircraft to repair other aircraft. The crew may or may not be reassigned, but they will continue the fight in some capacity.
At that point in the war killing more Americans was pointless and would have no effect on the outcome of the war. Maybe that was a factor in the German Pilot's decision. The only point in killing more Germans was the fruitless attempt to get them to surrender.0 -
That Kraut pilot is a better man than me...
I'd have made sure that bomber came down.....voluntarily or not0 -
Then I guess we agree.
Somewhere the line was drawn in the German pilot's mind. What made up his decision, I don't know. Perhaps the same thing that stopped my father from a continued shelling of some poor scared men wearing the wrong uniform. Maybe the futility. Maybe the economics. Possibly the knowledge that the war was all but over. Possibly an unwillingness to inflict any more carnage on fellow humans. I don't know. I do know that whatever the reason behind those decisions, it sometimes takes more courage not to pull a trigger than to pull it.
As to the surf and turf for the rest of his life... Yup! The B-17 happened on the right man at the right moment. Whatever his motives that day, those who survived on the B-17 owe a debt to the fighter pilot which cannot be repaid.
I once again salute those good men on all sides who exhibited humanity in the face of horror.0 -
zip -
There were no buzz bomb attacks until much later in the war.
As most of you know, I work as a volunteer at the Spruce Goose Museum. We have a lot of WWII Warbirds, including a B-17 G, a B-25 and a B-26.
Many of the volunteers I work with are veterans of the WWII "Mighty" 8th Air Force. In conversation, they relate many chivalrous acts on the part of their German opponents.
On the other hand, the vets of air combat in the Pacific Theater - we have a TBM, a Hellcat, a P-38, and a couple other Pacific Theater aircraft on display - those guy relate the total savagery of our japanese opponents.
I'll try to get some more detailed stories from some of these valiant Airmen.
Doug0 -
Yep, A1 ... mixing my metafores, again. You're right - '44 - '45.
Made mental note - have to adjust that part of the story.
A2
[:D]0 -
Quote: " When you're perhaps forced to parachute because of damage an enemy has inflicted upon you, or he's become a non-combatant due to damage you've inflicted, then the game changes. There comes a point where you're not any longer at war. "
Two problems. 1. War is not a GAME. 2. A soldier is never a non-combatant, he is always a soldier and if captured it is his duty to attempt to escape or harass the enemy if possible. Allowing a enemy to come back at you later is just plain stupid. Your main job is to kill,
wound or capture. It sure aint a game. For all the nice things said
about our WW2 enemy in battle, I still well remember seeing Dacau Prison Camp (near Munich) in late April ? '45 . This was the day following its capture by our buddies in the 42/45 I.D.. Thank God this was near wars end in ETO as it sure changed my outlook on the "good Germans". (Actually, Dacau was a extermination camp).0 -
In my mind, we were fighting numerous different wars: European Theater - Air, Sea, and Land - all different.
In the Pacific - Air, Sea, Sea/Land, and Land - all different.
In the CBI - Land and Air - both very different.
I'm not referring to different GOALS of the war, but the different nature of various enemies and the individual wars. From whom we fought to how we fought and who our Allies were.
I think those differences are why we continue to be fascinated by the events of World War II.
Doug0 -
Nords e mail: " Once I approve you, I will receive your original".
So much for answering you E mail from Gun Broker. Damn sorry I bothered you by replying to your E mail. ( Yes guys, this was about the topic
shown). Kinda pizzed me off. Must to be hell to be so damn important.0 -
Send it to me, Joe.
I'll take it.
These kinds of things to protect me from God knows what, make me nuts.
I will add it to my "pet peeve" list.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by nord
My dad was sickened by having to shell Heilbron (sp?) with phosphorus.
Odd that you would mention Heilbronn A/N in this conversation. I was stationed at the Badnerhof Kasern on the edge of Heilbronn from April 59 to Jan 61.
One of my friends was dating a German girl whose father was a fighter pilot during the war. I remember him telling us about how they were sometimes taken to cities that had just been bombed to steel their resolve. They also sometimes had to help in rescue operations. He was still angry about our use of delayed action bombs to kill the rescue personel.
It was my recollection of these discussions that caused me to react so strongly to this story. I know that there is no way that he would ever have thought of having any mercy or even compassion toward the bomber crews.
I don't imagine that there was much of Heilbronn left by the time your fater got there. They had been badly bombed several times. The worst was on Dec 4th, 1944. They had memorial services that day every year & we had our passes pulled on that day.0 -
Experienced flight crews were always in high demand in that war, perhaps more needed than the aircraft they flew. The Germans knew this.
Those crews were bombing cities with people in them. What the heck was he thinking? Respect and chivalry?0 -
These ideas related have opened much to my insight about this story. I guess no one
has the answer to all the angles reflected on this one incident. Imagine all of the
stories that we will never hear about ending quite differently, and some the same.
Speaking of which ...
The submarine incident:
As told by RailRD, Richfield Mn USA
The incident involving a sub goes something like this. The British had shot down a flying boat that was carrying wounded men. The Germans protested this vigorously. One day as another flying boat was to leave with wounded the usual pilot for some reason was unavailable and Franz was pressed to make the flight.
On the way across the Mediterranean Franz was suddenly bracketed by two Beaufighters! They signaled for him to land and of course, he did. After a bit, while the fighters circled overhead, a sub emerged and a small raft with British sailors and an officer paddled over to Franz's plane. He was boarded and inspected to insure his trip was, indeed, transporting wounded. Satisfied, the British returned to thier patrol and Franz continued on his way.
Hmmmmmm. Another case of cold blooded treason, I suppose.
War is a funny thing, sometimes. I wonder what the hidden rationale behind that was?
[:D]0 -
Gruntled -
Century Division has a web site. A very good one. As I recall Heilbronn sits in a valley. Century units emplaced on the west side and Germans held the high ground on the east. I guess it was a pretty good scrap before things quieted down.
Any movement was held suspect, especially at night. A cigarette being lit or any telltale sign was plastered with phosphorus. After Bitche the 100th wasn't much concerned about how the Germans felt, but this was at a fairly impersonal level on the whole. I can imagine that an infantryman might not quite have seen it in this light on either side, however I'm not speaking of any one man here.
I think it fair to say that my father got as good as he gave. He would recount several instances where he was the direct target of German fire. One in particular was when he was out in front of his unit looking for new gun positions. He recounted passing through a rather thick stand of scrub trees into an open field. A farmhouse stood perhaps a third of a mile away and he described having a strange sensation and stepping back into the woods. Within seconds the field and woods edge erupted from shelling. He was always sure that there was a German spotter in that house. There would have been no mercy on that day. No hard feelings on his part either. Just business.
As to some of the comments about the cruelty of war... It was certainly there. I'm sure the citizens of Heilbronn had good reason to remember the allied invasion. Then again, the French had just as good a reason to remember Bitche and their German occupiers.
The war was winding down rapidly in the spring of 1945. It was not unusual to move forward twenty or more miles in a 24 hour period. My understanding is that at the unit level (at least) it was decided to treat the Germans as humanely as possible. Yes, they had their homes and property appropriated temporarily. Yes, they were subject to military law. But they were treated well on whole.
Again one man's opinion, but I was told that this was possibly the best policy that could have been adapted. The Germans responded with cooperation and casualties were minimized for both sides.
It was my dad's opinion that there were considerably less problems with the Germans than the French at the end. His experiences with the French Algerians weren't favorable as they attempted retribution toward the German civilians. This caused some major concerns for our units... And problems.
Funny how each person took a different view away from the war. Even the same incident was often seen from entirely different angles when recounted years later. I've heard it happen... Both stories correct and based in fact, but completely different from a personal standpoint.
Again, my deepest thanks for all who served and still remember. What you did and what you experienced should be a required course in every US school.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wolf.
--
-War has been described as "chaos", which is true.
However, wars used to be fought by men with strength, courage and some measure of dignity and respect for life.
That can't be said today.
You obviously have no idea. [:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]0 -
Noch einmal, ich frage, was bedeutet "gerade?" 0 -
Es bedeutet vectored Strich. 0 -
"vectored Strich"
Schweinhund!
Das auch verstehe ich nicht.0 -
Nicht "Schweinhunde" - gerade Gerade. 0 -
Zipperzap.
Let me see if I understand this story correctly. These guys, on June 21,1942 murdered and injured man in a gruesome way because a year earlier a V-1 bomb hit a school. Since the first V-1 bomb was launched on June 13, 1944 that might be a hard sell.
More people were killed in Germany on single night raids by the RAF than English killed in the entire war from all types of German bombs.
The Germans actually forbid dropping of bombs unless targets could be identified and they were to drop in the channel on the way home.
We and the Brits intentionally targeted German civilian population centers. By 1944 the new Vengeance weapons were launched in the direction of London and after hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths it is easy to believe their lack of concern for civilians no longer existed.
The Nazis did many terrible things but are also credited with doing things they did not to masked the atrocities the allies committed.
If we felt it right to do them we should have been men enough to admit what we did rather than play the we did nothing wrong and only reacted to what they were doing.
The evidence does not support it.
When German civilians killed allied airmen as their children lay dead on the streets they were hanged for it after the war.
Any chance these British murderers received punishment for their despicable act?
BTW, My uncle John (My older brother was named for him) was killed over Germany, a crewman on a USAAF B-17.
Wulfmann0 -
Yep - what you say is pretty much what went on - except my recall of the buzz bomb incident - second or actually third hand, at that.
quote:Wulfmann:
We and the Brits intentionally targeted German civilian population centers. By 1944 the new Vengeance weapons were launched in the direction of London and after hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths it is easy to believe their lack of concern for civilians no longer existed.
... except, you failed to mention the bombing London, Birmingham, Sheffield, Liverpool, Manchester, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Southampton ... begining with the bombing of London for 57 nights in a row ... 7 September 1940 and 10 May 1941. May I remind you that over 43,000 civilians were killed and more than a million houses destroyed or damaged, regardless of the Germans actually forbidding the dropping of bombs unless targets could be identified. The killing of those civilians was indirectly responsible for the later bombing of German civilians, as well.
However, to be more precise, When World War II began in 1939, the president of the United States (then a neutral power), Franklin D. Roosevelt, issued a request to the major belligerents to confine their air raids to military targets. The French and the British agreed to abide by the request which included in the provision that "upon the understanding that these same rules of warfare will be scrupulously observed by all of their opponents".
quote:If we felt it right to do them we should have been men enough to admit what we did rather than play the we did nothing wrong and only reacted to what they were doing.
The evidence does not support it.
I beg to differ with you - that is erroneous, to say the least.
The UK had a policy of using aerial bombing only against military targets and against infrastructure such as ports and railways which were of direct military importance. While it was acknowledged that the aerial bombing of Germany would cause civilian casualties, the British government renounced the deliberate bombing of civilian property, outside combat zones, as a military tactic. This policy was abandoned on May 15, 1940, two days after the German air attack on Rotterdam, when the RAF was given permission to attack targets in the Ruhr, including oil plants and other civilian industrial targets which aided the German war effort, such as blast furnaces that at night were self illuminating. The first RAF raid on the interior of Germany took place on the night of 15 May - 16 May.
Between 1939 and 1942 the policy of bombing only targets of direct military significance was gradually abandoned in favour of a policy of "area bombing" - the large-scale bombing of German cities in order to destroy housing and civilian infrastructure. Although killing German civilians was never explicitly adopted as a policy, it was obvious that area bombing must lead to large-scale civilian casualties.
There were a number of reasons for this policy change:
The free use of indiscriminate bombing of cities by Germany - Warsaw in 1939, Rotterdam in 1940, Belgrade in 1941 and above all the bombing of British cities ("the Blitz") in 1940-41 - hardened British attitudes towards bombing Germany.
Also, following the fall of France in 1940, Britain had no other means of carrying the war to Germany as British public opinion demanded.
After the entry of the Soviet Union into the war in 1941, bombing Germany was the only contribution Britain could make to meet Joseph Stalin's demands for action to open up a second front, to relieve pressure on the German-Soviet front.
Finally, with the technology available at the time, the precision bombing of military targets was only possible by daylight (and difficult even then). Daylight bombing involved unacceptably high losses of British aircraft. Bombing by night led to far lower British losses, but was of necessity indiscriminate.
That perhaps lends more detail to my argument.0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
... except, you failed to mention the bombing London, Birmingham, Sheffield, Liverpool, Manchester, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Southampton ... begining with the bombing of London for 57 nights in a row ... 7 September 1940 and 10 May 1941. May I remind you that over 43,000 civilians were killed and more than a million houses destroyed or damaged, regardless of the Germans actually forbidding the dropping of bombs unless targets could be identified. The killing of those civilians was indirectly responsible for the later bombing of German civilians, as well.
On Dec 4th, 1944 the bombing of Heilbronn resulted in over 6,000 civilian deaths in just one day. (That's from a web site, we were given a figure of 10,000 when I was there but maybe that was the total for all the raids.) There were of course many other cities that suffered even worse. We were told that the bombing deliberatly targeted civilians in retribution for their hanging of one bomber crew.0 -
If you are interested in German bombing causalities, go to: https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm
It's a good read.
I'm sure the Russians who lost about 20,000,000 to the Nazis and
the 'exterminated' of Europe - numbering somewhere between
6,000,000 and 11,000,000 would find it of little to no consequence.
... but, then again, those are the 'crops harvested of war,' eh?0 -
Doug Wilson,
My response to your bizzare comment to me, somewhere above, is that you are a sorry excuse for a grown man. The fact that you have temerity to say something like that to me not only shows your lack of intelligence but your lack of decency and respect for others. I thought you were a good guy. My mistake.0 -
Zip, not understanding it was British planning from before the war to destroy German cities and kill large numbers of civilians in the belief it could decide the war tells me you are selective in what you choose to understand regarding history.
I have no agenda.
As a Yank perhaps some may think I should but I prefer to stand back and not take sides allowing a more objective approach or at least I try to.
The Germans did over step, no question but we over stepped 20 to 50 times if one counts casualties as any measure.
One example of perception is the German bombing of Belgrade considered a war crime by many. Yet when the USAAF bombed Belgrade later in the war killing far more civilians that was just fine.
Criminal acts committed in war are only done by the side that looses.
More people died in Dresden (Because so many refugees had fled there from the Russian onslaught the number will never be known) but the estimates by those that are not trying to sanitize the allied crime is between 80,000-100,000 civilians.
No matter how you tally it just that one episode killed more civilians than all civilians that died in the German Blitz for the whole war.
As to the RAF raids Harris was livid when the USAAF got its way and pulled his bombers briefly to target German oil production the only really useful thing accomplished in the whole strategic air war against Germany.
Have you read "Bomber Command"?
The worse the bombing got the more civilians died and the more war production increased.
The only thing the German ran short on was fuel no thanks to the RAF plan to level German population centers.
Would you like me to quote Mauser K98k production figures?
Wulfmann0 -
quote:Zip, not understanding it was British planning from before the war to destroy German cities and kill large numbers of civilians in the belief it could decide the war tells me you are selective in what you choose to understand regarding history.
I have no agenda.
As a Yank perhaps some may think I should but I prefer to stand back and not take sides allowing a more objective approach or at least I try to.
Please direct me to that planning concept. That's a new one that I haven't heard about.
I am sitting here laughing to myself a bit reflecting on those last two paragraphs.
Having used words, and phrases, such as "crimes", "masked atrocities," "British murderers," "Criminal acts," etc., etc., tend to exemplify a man with an agenda.
quote:No matter how you tally it just that one episode killed more civilians than all civilians that died in the German Blitz for the whole war.
Trying to compare damage done by the small Luftwaffe bombers and the overwhelming numbers of B-17's and Lancaster heavy bombers, later in the war, is absolutely ludicrous, as well. It is quite plain to everyone who knows of the German history of bombing (and yes, strafing civilians in Belgium and France) if Germany had the means to bomb English cities off the map in 1940, she would have done so, `Schnelle!'
To try and rationalize anything else, is just silly.
Another point that you seem to lose is, that by 1944 (actually earlier, in many respects) Europe was engaged in a `total war.' Look up the definition of Total War and you will see that a body count is just part of it.
I still contend the Nazis were the first to conduct unlimited bombing against civilians as early as 1939. You may certainly justify it but your opinion was certainly not held by any allied power I've ever heard of.
The allies' efforts - as I have stated before - were directed at war production and the infrastructure that supported it. Large German cities contained both and both were subsequently levelled - quite effectively, may I add - by relentless, wave after wave of day and night bombing until the end of the war.
Your contention of `War Crimes' allegation, based on carpet bombing of German industrial centers doesn't even merit comment. I contend that `war crimes' were, indeed, committed - and (most) of the appropriate criminals were hung in 1946 - and good riddance to the lot of them.
... then again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.0 -
Guernica.
Doug0 -
Thanks Doug - nice touch - had forgotten that! LOL 0 -
Also, Warsaw.
Doug0 -
I mentioned Warsaw. I have an aunt who lived in Badden Badden who remembers at the time that even many decent Germans were surprised at Hitler for ordering those bombings and dreaded any consequences that might later develop from Warsaw. They had no idea of how true those forebodings would be turn out to be. 0 -
Zip, I have a couple points of disagreement with your rebuttal of Wulfmann's post.
1. You say "(most) of the appropriate criminals were hung in 1946". I would have said "(some)".
2. I wouldn't bring this one up, but you were a professor, so I think you'll agree I should bring it up: They may or may not have been hung, but they were certainly hanged.
3. I thought the best laugh was when he said "I have no agenda."
OK, that's three, not a couple.0
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