C&R sale denied by seller
I saw a Winchester 1894 carbine, manufactured in 1922, on another website. I e-mailed the seller to confirm that a C&R FFL was acceptable before I placed a bid. They replied "No, I need a signed F.F.L. A signed copy from a reputable dealer of your choice."
Have I not been checked out by the FBI and local law enforcement? I have no criminal background, my fingerprints are on file all over the place, I'm former military with an Honorable Discharge, I have a New York State personal protection permit, and the Federal Government has determined that I am "reputable" and issued me a license allowing me to purchase eligible C&R firearms. I even had an ATF agent at my home 2 weeks ago who gave me a clean bill of health for my license due to my recent change of address.
What's up with that? Do they think a C&R is just something I downloaded off the internet. Hell, I could do that with an 01 FFL if I wanted to commit a felony.
Needless to say, I won't be bidding. Has anyone else run into this problem?
Have I not been checked out by the FBI and local law enforcement? I have no criminal background, my fingerprints are on file all over the place, I'm former military with an Honorable Discharge, I have a New York State personal protection permit, and the Federal Government has determined that I am "reputable" and issued me a license allowing me to purchase eligible C&R firearms. I even had an ATF agent at my home 2 weeks ago who gave me a clean bill of health for my license due to my recent change of address.
What's up with that? Do they think a C&R is just something I downloaded off the internet. Hell, I could do that with an 01 FFL if I wanted to commit a felony.
Needless to say, I won't be bidding. Has anyone else run into this problem?
0
-
So what's the big deal? If you want it, get a copy of an FFL from the dealer of your choice..
Could be he/she just wants to cover all bases..0 -
quote:Originally posted by BlackRoses
So what's the big deal? If you want it, get a copy of an FFL from the dealer of your choice..
Could be he/she just wants to cover all bases..
The point is that if I buy it, I'll have to pay a transfer fee and fill out a 4473 when ATF says I don't need to with my FFL license. That's why I got one in the first place.0 -
Some of the C&R holders think they have a dealers license[:0][}:)][}:)]
Don0 -
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
Some of the C&R holders think they have a dealers license[:0][}:)][}:)]
Don
Some dealers don't know the laws too!!!0 -
I have run into this problem also and have learned to live with it. I just remember them for future reference and don't bid on their items whether it requires an ffl or not. There could be several reasons they choose to do this (reasons that only makes sense to them and a few others) I think it's foolish since a collector will bid a little more than the average person that has to have someone else handle the transaction. But, in the end it's their business and they have a right to run it the way they choose. I simply find an individual that will honor my c&r and give him my business. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
They replied "No, I need a signed F.F.L. A signed copy from a reputable dealer of your choice."
Well then send him a copy of YOUR signed FFL, are you are the reputable dealer of your choice. Or ask him if an 03 FFL is ok because maybe he does not know that a C&R IS an FFL.
Or ask why they won't accept it.....
Just a thought....0 -
Did the person you contacted own/run the place or did they just work there? I have found that some stores have policies that go beyond what the law requires, regardless. I am not sure I understand why but I think it may have something to do with incompetent help...... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
Some of the C&R holders think they have a dealers license[:0][}:)][}:)]
Don
That's true but some dealers also think they're superior to C&R holders or are simply ignorant of the law. C&R holders are subject to the same FBI background checks, bound books and ATF inspections. They just can't run a business for profit unless they have a dealer's license but their money is just as green as a dealer's. I wouldn't mind if it was a handgun like a Luger because some states do not recognize C&R's for handguns but this is an 85-year-old carbine. I'll just buy elsewhere. The seller has the right to set his own policies but so do I.0 -
Buy it, send them your C&R and the money, when they refuse call BATF on them. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
Buy it, send them your C&R and the money, when they refuse call BATF on them.
ATF can't make them send it to me even though it's legal. Dealers are allowed to set their own policies so I'll just buy elsewhere. I just needed to vent.0 -
You asked him if he accepted a C&R and he told you NO.
Why did you bid and then come here to complain??0 -
A lot of dealers are ignorant of the law, and err on the side of caution.
It is not unusual to see a gun made before 1899, legally an antique and requiring no paper work according to the Feds, and the seller demands a transfer to a FFL.
Just have to take your business elsewhere.0 -
Guys I have had the no answer on a C&R and sent the dealer (FFL) links to the BATF C&R information and to the list were the firearm he was selling is listed and gottn back, "Oh, Ok, I did not know that." sometimes a little diplomacy and education will get you the firearm you want. If it doesn't, then boycott them forever. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cpermd
You asked him if he accepted a C&R and he told you NO.
Why did you bid and then come here to complain??
He emailed before he bid. Read his post.
He's complaining because many dealers are either ignorant of the law or just plain pareniod. They go beyond what is required by law. IMHO they are just as bad as the gungrabbers. I refuse to do business with dealers who enforce stricter gun control policies than those required by law. I often try to educate them about the law but if they still refuse I take my business elsewhere. Even if they have a good deal, and that is difficult for me sometimes.
I just bought an antique revolver on GB and had to educate the dealer that it was OK to send an antique handgun directly to me. This guy had a +1270 feedback rating. He claimed a BATFE agent once told him that an antique HANDGUN had to go to a license holder. He had to call the BATFE and got the runaround until someone there who actually knew the answer told him it was OK! Even the BATFE employees are clueless!0 -
Yep, most dealers won't recognize a Collector FFL.
Ignore those tards and take your business elsewheres.
My favorite was Century Arms. Send them a signed copy of your CR FFL...call them up in about 30 days to open up your online account.
I loved Century Arms. Got some nice Ballester Molina 45's, M91's, M44's....and some other old stuff I can't even remember.
Another good one was SOG:
www.southernohiogun.com/surrifle.htm
I need to get a new CR FFL.[^]0 -
It's the dealers loss ! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
Guys I have had the no answer on a C&R and sent the dealer links to the BATF C&R information and to the list were the firearm he was selling is listed and gottn back, "Oh, Ok, I did not know that." sometimes a little diplomacy and education will get you the firearm you want. If it doesn't, then boycott them forever.
A phone call, and a e-mail with links to information helps.
You did not state that the seller is a FFL? Perhaps you are dealing with a individual, not a dealer?
Don0 -
You guys all complain about bad the BATF is and then complain because someone wants to be careful? 0 -
I do not see what the problem is.
If the dealer wants a a signed copy of an FFL from a reputable dealer. Why not just send him one?
If you want the firearm bad enough what is another $25.00 to have a transfer done?
I bought a Colt revolver from a guy that wanted to go through a dealer to sale me the gun. I wanted the pistol and was glad to pay $25.00 for the transfer.
Bottom line is.
If you want the gun. You will do what the seller wishes in order to get it.0 -
Originally posted by LesWVa
I do not see what the problem is.
If the dealer wants a a signed copy of an FFL from a reputable dealer. Why not just send him one?
If you want the firearm bad enough what is another $25.00 to have a transfer done?
I bought a Colt revolver from a guy that wanted to go through a dealer to sale me the gun. I wanted the pistol and was glad to pay $25.00 for the transfer.
Bottom line is.
If you want the gun. You will do what the seller wishes in order to get it.
[/quote [?] now there is some sound logic0 -
quote:Originally posted by LesWVa
I do not see what the problem is.
If the dealer wants a a signed copy of an FFL from a reputable dealer. Why not just send him one?
If you want the firearm bad enough what is another $25.00 to have a transfer done?
I bought a Colt revolver from a guy that wanted to go through a dealer to sale me the gun. I wanted the pistol and was glad to pay $25.00 for the transfer.
Bottom line is.
If you want the gun. You will do what the seller wishes in order to get it.
It's not the $25 fee; it's the principle. I paid for a C&R license specifically so I could purchase this type of firearm without going through the transfer hoops. The federal government says I'm qualified but the seller says I'm not. What if you were a Class 01 FFL dealer looking to buy a new, standard, semi-auto Ruger 10/22 but the seller says they will only ship to a Class 09 dealer who handles full-auto weapons? I don't think you would bid on it not because of the inconvenience or fees but because you are legally licensed to buy it. My FFL dealer is 50 miles from here so I'm not going to spend the time, gas and transfer fees when there's no law that says I have to with my FFL. Again, I never bid on it nor do I intend to. There are plenty of C&R firearms for sale by sellers who know what the hell they're doing.0 -
I would have mailed him my [C&R] signed FFL and payment.
If he doesn't like it, he can return said payment.
Brownells calls me an FFL holder. So does the gub'mint.0 -
Spider, it IS a problem with some sellers- if they do not know what IS a C&R arm, and what a C&R FFL is. Have heard "Oh, no, that is not a C&R- it uses cartridges". What has worked for me in the past has been something like "Interested in your marlin 39 you have for auction. From the serial number, this was made in 1946, and qualifies as a C&R arm by virtue of age (50+ yrs) I hold a C&R FFL (03) Would this be acceptable to you for this rifle? Thanks for your time-" Some will say "Yes" Some will say "But it is not on the list" Some say no, some are just plain rude. Along the way you make some new friends, maybe help educate some for the NEXT C&R buyer, and add some folks to the "Glad I am not doing business with THAT jerk" list. Smile, and go on to the next one. Good luck, bro. 0 -
The problem we have with the C&R is that we can not check to see if the c&r is valid like we can a ffl. Very simple. 0 -
The FFL dealer is just CHOA whether he is educated about the C&R or not.
It is his policy.
A good solution is to have the C&R firearm sent to your local FFL dealer who you regularly do business and transfer from his books to your. He may or may not charge a fee depending on how good a customer you are.0 -
Duckhunter: givette here. Very good point. I never thought of that. Joe 0 -
quote:Originally posted by duckhunter
The problem we have with the C&R is that we can not check to see if the c&r is valid like we can a ffl. Very simple.
Yes, you can. You just can't do it online any more like you used to be able to do. An 03 FFL can be verified through the Licensing Center.0 -
I guess what set me off was the rudeness of the reply. I copied it verbatim in my original posting; there was no explanation, no courtesy, and I took it as an insinuation that as a mere C&R holder, I'm not "reputable". I don't like being treated as a "second class citizen" and there are plenty of dealers who aren't reputable. A Type 01 license doesn't change that. I have 37 feedbacks on Gunbroker and over 1700 on eBay, all of which are 100% positive. I think that qualifies me as "reputable". 0 -
quote:Originally posted by EOD Guy
quote:Originally posted by duckhunter
The problem we have with the C&R is that we can not check to see if the c&r is valid like we can a ffl. Very simple.
Yes, you can. You just can't do it online any more like you used to be able to do. An 03 FFL can be verified through the Licensing Center.
I used to call on 01 licenses before they started ez-check, the clerks down there were surprised that anyone would bother...
Don0 -
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
I guess what set me off was the rudeness of the reply. I copied it verbatim in my original posting; there was no explanation, no courtesy, and I took it as an insinuation that as a mere C&R holder, I'm not "reputable". I don't like being treated as a "second class citizen" and there are plenty of dealers who aren't reputable. A Type 01 license doesn't change that. I have 37 feedbacks on Gunbroker and over 1700 on eBay, all of which are 100% positive. I think that qualifies me as "reputable".
Spider did you try calling them?
Don0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
39 comments