Don't waste your money...
On buying the book "Flyboys" by James Bradley, who also wrote "Flags of Our Fathers".
This idiot/commie/ultra-leftist compares the American Westward Expansion to the slaughter of innocents done by the Germans and Japanese during and before WWII.
From my understanding, the Axis powers were directly responsible for the deaths of between 30,000,000 and 50,000,000 people, worldwide.
I have reached page 108, and I will be disposing of this book, and destroying the copy of "Flags of Our Fathers" DVD that I received for my birthday(unwatched).
This anti-American Son-of-A-Bitch dishonors our Fathers, our Sons and ourselves.
May he burn in hell eternally.
Doug
This idiot/commie/ultra-leftist compares the American Westward Expansion to the slaughter of innocents done by the Germans and Japanese during and before WWII.
From my understanding, the Axis powers were directly responsible for the deaths of between 30,000,000 and 50,000,000 people, worldwide.
I have reached page 108, and I will be disposing of this book, and destroying the copy of "Flags of Our Fathers" DVD that I received for my birthday(unwatched).
This anti-American Son-of-A-Bitch dishonors our Fathers, our Sons and ourselves.
May he burn in hell eternally.
Doug
0
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so when he finally writes something you disagree with he's a commie/ultra-leftist?
Is it news to you that the real "savages" were not the guys with feathers in their hats?
I for one am ashamed that we are descendants of such barbarism [V]0 -
I am proud of my Indian heritage. And , I have never tried to ethically justify our actions - neither my white, NOR my Indian forebears.
But to compare what we did as equivalent to what the Japanese and Germans did is unconscionable.
He deserves to spend the rest of his pitiful life living on the grounds of Dachau.
Doug0 -
i will not apoligize for what my country did to becdome great. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Doug, don't hold back. Tell us exactly how you feel. [:D]
I think he just did.[;)]0 -
American expansion was accomplished at the suffering and death of a great many Native American Indians. And while it's easy to say that we should ignore it or refuse to acknowledge it because it made us great, that sort of rationale encourages barbarism, not civilization and culture.
Yes, we did do many horrible things as Americans. There was rape, there was torture, there was murder.
But can anything we do now undo the harm that was done? Unless we invent a time machine, the answer is no.
So all we are left with is the burden of doing the right thing and atoning for the sins of our forefathers.
And given how many nations and people we have saved and liberated, I'd say we're doing one hell of a job doing so.
Do not ignore the past, but don't dwell on it either.0 -
I liked the book, and his "Flag of our Fathers." The movie sucked IMHO. But I agree with all he said in "Flyboys." What the US did to the American Indian was just as inexcusable as what the Nazis did, and the Japanese. Unless you think it is OK to purposely give a group of people blankets infected with small pox just to rid themselves of a perceived "problem." 0 -
The difference is qualitative, in that the results were different by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.
Can one equate the murder of 1 Indian to the murder of 50,000 Chinese or Jews ??
I am NOT justifying our actions. I am only indicting this misbegotten unAmerican son-of-a-bitch that dishonors generations of American Heroes.
And, I am not dwelling on the past. Just trying to present my opinion as information.
He is a waste of AMERICAN air.
And... I don't think anyone here can think that I have ever been less than straightforward in my views, or in any way, circumspect.
Or, that I have any hidden agendas.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by iluvguns
I liked the book, and his "Flag of our Fathers." The movie sucked IMHO. But I agree with all he said in "Flyboys." What the US did to the American Indian was just as inexcusable as what the Nazis did, and the Japanese. Unless you think it is OK to purposely give a group of people blankets infected with small pox just to rid themselves of a perceived "problem."
would you rather they didnt do that? that would have changed the course of history, and none of us might be here.0 -
Doug,
You can think whatever you want.
It's quite a shock for most on here to acknowledge after damning Germans and Japanese that our country did pretty much the same thing. We like to think we ALWAYS wore the white hat. Taint so.
Sorry about it? Can't say I am as I didn't do it nor can I change it.
As far as you not equating the death of one Indian with 50,000 Jews, Russians, Chinese, etc., ask yourself this question? Could you do it if you were that one Indian? [:o)][}:)]0 -
Genocide is what hitler did.
Genocide is what the US did to the indians.
The difference is the number of years each did it. Can we change it? No, we can't. Can we do our best to see that it does not happen anywhere again? Yes, we can.
What do we do about the past? Acknowledge and remember it. Man, both as an individual and as a society, learns by remembering his mistakes.
Most of us indians do not expect the wrongs of a 100 or more years ago to be corrected. We do expect that those wrongs that still continue to this day be stopped. I know that most of you don't know or understand what wrongs are still happening.
There are tribes that still do not have any land. We believe that the people and the land are one. And the people must have land.
There are tribes that are owed tens of millions of dollars in royalties. Some tribes are owed hundreds of millions in royalties. This money is from mining and oil leases, etc. which the Government addmitts to having but refused to turn over to the rightfull tribes.
There is land that is leased by the US Gov. and the Gov. refuses to pay for the lease.
There is more but this would be way too long. When todays wrongs come up it is normal for any human being to say such things as - so what's new, this has been going on for 300 yrs. We don't expect todays whiteman to be responsile for the sins of their fathers. That would not be right. But giving back some of the land to those tribes that lost all their land and turning over the royalties collected over the last 75 years is right.0 -
p3 - absolutely. Sacrifice has always been part of my heritage.
mcaso - I agree with every word you have said.
Doug0 -
What I hate is the way everybody equates a goverment's leaders as the whole of the population. Goverments have done some terrible things to not just the Indians - what about using the armed forces as human guinee(sp) pigs when testing bombs or drugs. We the people only see the tip of the iceberg while the goverment can and will do whatever they want and promote what they do to the populace through propoganda. Or, the goverment will outright lie to the people and bury an issue for a 50 year term so the newer generation does not really care when they find out who took out JFK or some of the reasons for the Civil war.
It is nice to say that "oh I wasn't even there" but it is still true, and we should remain dilligent as the people of this Great Nation to ensure that our goverment discloses the truth. And they should pay for the past.0 -
quote:This anti-American Son-of-A-Bitch dishonors our Fathers, our Sons and ourselves.
May he burn in hell eternally.
Doug
Haven't read what he's written. Maybe so.
Recorded history is a lot like nature - it happens - sometimes explainable and sometimes not.
It's hard for an educated human to read such things and not have an opinion - it's criminal to one's soul to deny what has happened before we arrived on the historical scene.
I read - absorb - try to interrelate, when possible - form an opinion and move on. To dwell and obsess is a worthless waste of time. There's going to be plenty of history that's yet to be written and it will happen with/without our approval/disapproval.
It's the way of the world ... since we are not the actors ... we are the audience who watches the actors ... and the whole "world's the stage" ... as the Bard once pointed out.
[:D]0 -
I'm trying to do my part to hit this poor excuse for an American in the wallet.
Passing my view of what he has done on to my GunBrothers.
Doug0 -
I am not real up on what happened with the American Indian but I have been told that everything was friendly until the Indian decided to fight back the encrouching white man and it was not until then that there were Indians killed.
Is that old History now?0 -
situation was different then compared to now. to compare then to ideals today, would be invalid in every case.
you did what you did.
there were winners and losers, not everyone was happy and equal. dominance and superiority was not questioned. it was known and revered and it established the chop chain. when two superior forces clashed, one lost and one won.
....a lost art.0 -
...Doug, sounds like the guy has the typical Liberal "think" of blame America first.
...The strongest always prevail, propagate and dominate in all of nature...including man,..unlike the lefties who for whatever reason are allowed to reproduce...[;)]
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quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
I am proud of my Indian heritage. And , I have never tried to ethically justify our actions - neither my white, NOR my Indian forebears.
I too have Indian/White heritage....Unlike you I have tried too Justify...0 -
We let Indians build casinos to get some money from the white man for retribution. That is payment enough for 100 year old transgressions I had nothing to do with. 0 -
Dennis Smith - good thinking. Send me your address, and the book will be in the mail.
bpost - You are thinking with WAAAY too much clarity. Whatever you do, don't extend that logic to other historical events. You might be labeled a racist.
Doug0 -
"compares the American Westward Expansion to the slaughter of innocents done by the Germans and Japanese during and before WWII."... UNTILL THE MIDDEL OF THE LAST CENTURY, 'CONQUEST' WAS A LIGITIMATE FORM OF LAND AQUISITION (HISTORY IS WRITEN BY THE VICTORS). 0 -
quote: quote:Originally posted by iluvguns
I liked the book, and his "Flag of our Fathers." The movie sucked IMHO. But I agree with all he said in "Flyboys." What the US did to the American Indian was just as inexcusable as what the Nazis did, and the Japanese. Unless you think it is OK to purposely give a group of people blankets infected with small pox just to rid themselves of a perceived "problem."
would you rather they didnt do that? that would have changed the course of history, and none of us might be here.
How do we know how history would have worked out? So what if today I had still been sitting merrily in Nottingham, England where my original forefathers came from in 1799. The fact is that our American forefathers treated the Indians terribly. No worse, and no better, than Hitler and the Nazi government did the Jews. It is comparing apples to apples in this instance.
Bobski wrote:
quote: situation was different then compared to now. to compare then to ideals today, would be invalid in every case.
you did what you did.
there were winners and losers, not everyone was happy and equal. dominance and superiority was not questioned. it was known and revered and it established the chop chain. when two superior forces clashed, one lost and one won.
....a lost art.
No, the ideals wouldn't be invalid in every case. What was wrong in the 1930's through 1945 is still wrong today. What was wrong in the 1800's is still wrong today. Yes, there were winners and losers. What if Hitler had of won, as it looked like he might until Japan drug us kicking and screaming into the war? Would the extermination of millions of Jewish people been right then? Hell no! But winners write the history books, and what we know of what happened to the Indians is probably just a drop in the bucket as far as to what REALLY happened. Why? Because we "won"! We wrote the book. Still does not make it right.0 -
Come to that Doug, Stalin was a larger monster than Hitler, he killed something like 20,000,000 in Russia alone. 0 -
quote:bpost1958:
We let Indians build casinos to get some money from the white man for retribution. That is payment enough for 100 year old transgressions I had nothing to do with.
San Diego has the highest concentration of Indian Casinos of anywhere in the country. And we're not just talking about a few slot machines and a bingo hall. Pretty high price to pay though. During the 1850s, 60s, and far into the 70s they were 'shot on sight' by our locals if they were off Mission Lands. Lots and lots of newspapers accounts of unidentified indian dead lying by the roads ... pretty harsh, eh?
http://sandiego.about.com/od/indiancasino1/Indian_Casinos_San_Diego_is_casino_country.htm0 -
Quote:
quote:Genocide is what hitler did.
Genocide is what the US did to the indians.
Genocide is what the INDIANS did to the indians as well.
I'm afraid our attempts to re-write history don't change the fact that this continent wasn't a place of "peace and tranquility" before the arrival of the white eyes.
It's also too bad we can't ask Kennewick Man just who was really here first!0 -
I was tempted to refer to Stalin (and I think it was a lot more than 20 million), but he wasn't in the book, so I didn't.
Doug0 -
bpost, The reason Indians get casinos is because the States get them. If of course a State wants to allow a casinos. Part of the problem the US is having is that the US Consitution says one thing and the Supreme Court, under John Jay, said the Indians don't want the rights guaranteed under the Consitution and made Indians wards of the US Gov. Both the Indians and the everyday whiteman didn't know anything about this. To this day many of both still don't know this.
Indian Governments are supposed to equal to State Governments. You will find this under the powers of "State Governments and Indian Governments". I believe the US Consitution uses these words in three different places.0 -
I'm not going to settle the question of alleged genocide against the American Indian allegedly attempted by the United States, but there are a couple of points I'd like to put into the discussion.
About smallpox: It is generally accepted as fact by most people that the European-Americans practiced Biological Warfare against the American Indians in the eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries by giving smallpox infected blankets to the Indians. For this to be such a widely accepted fact, it must have been United States policy and well documented.
Well, not exactly. The only known example of anything like this happening was shortly after the French and Indian War (before the American Revolution for those who didn't pay attention in class). Most Indian tribes allied with the France against the British. After the war, the Ottawa and various other tribes led by Pontiac in Pontiac's Rebellion put Fort Pitt (now Pittsburgh, PA) under siege in an attempt to drive the British out of the territory. Eight forts were destroyed and hundreds of colonists were killed.
There was an outbreak of smallpox inside Fort Pitt during the siege. In a letter from Captain Simeon Ecuyer (British Army) to Lord General Jeffrey Amherst (British Army), he mentioned that he had given two blankets and one handkerchief from the smallpox hospital to the Indians and hoped it would have the desired effect.
That's it. The only time in world history that white men gave infected blankets and a handkerchief to the Indians. That is, of course, unless you accept the teachings of Professor Ward Churchill as the Gospel Truth.
There is no question that smallpox took a terrible toll on the Indians in eighteenth century America, but it also took a terrible toll on white people in America at the time. The main reason I doubt that smallpox was intentionally used against the Indians as a weapon is logic tells me it would have been suicidal. Smallpox couldn't tell the difference between an Indian and a white man.
The first large scale smallpox vaccination of Indians was authorized by Congress in 1832.
Genocide: I don't believe genocide has ever been the stated policy of the United States. At least nobody can show evidence of it. I do believe there have been numerous leaders who's personal goal was genocide, both European and Indian. Not the least of these was President Andrew Jackson. In 1832 when the Supreme court ruled in favor of the Cherokee, President Jackson said "John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."
During the American Revolution most Indians allied with the British against the Americans. In the Northwest Territories (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois) the British paid the Indians for each American scalp they brought in. Same pay for men, women and children. The Indians would raid and destroy entire settlements and towns and cash in all the residents. General George Washington was revolted by this and ordered that the Indians be destroyed. He said he didn't want them defeated, he wanted them destroyed. Roughly eighty percent of the Northwest Indians were destroyed. I believe this is when the serious hatred between the Indians and the white man really got underway.
For the record: For the record, my great grandmother was Cherokee. That gives me the minimum amount of Cherokee blood to call myself Cherokee according to the Cherokee Nation, and they get to make the rules. I usually don't bother until somebody calls me a bigot. [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
On buying the book "Flyboys" by James Bradley, who also wrote "Flags of Our Fathers".
This idiot/commie/ultra-leftist compares the American Westward Expansion to the slaughter of innocents done by the Germans and Japanese during and before WWII.
From my understanding, the Axis powers were directly responsible for the deaths of between 30,000,000 and 50,000,000 people, worldwide.
I have reached page 108, and I will be disposing of this book, and destroying the copy of "Flags of Our Fathers" DVD that I received for my birthday(unwatched).
This anti-American Son-of-A-Bitch dishonors our Fathers, our Sons and ourselves.
May he burn in hell eternally.
Doug
Amen!0 -
JamesRK - You are correct. There is no evidence that the US ever gave Indians any of the various diseases that are said to have been given to Indians. Our ancesters caught those sickness the same way the whiteman did. We just had no immunity to them. So our ancesters died and the whiteman didn't. My friend Rod, also a Cowlitz Indian, has spent the last 3 years looking for any facts that says the Gov. did do this and has found none. People believe it happened because they keep hearing that it happened. I think Hollywood started it, but maybe not.
I hope everyone remembers that we believe by repetition. Hear anything enough times and we will believe it.0
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