Using Pearl Harbor to argue against Japan??
Why must people insist on bringing up Pearl Harbor when discussing the Japanese automobile market in the United States? I was talking to someone the other day about the automobile market. This person was outraged that I would even consider buying a Japanese made automobile. He insisted no one should buy/own anything Japanese made due to Pearl Harbor. I agree, Pearl Harbor was a tragedy, and many, many people lost their lives from a sneaky Japanese attack. However, didn't we make two of their cities ghost towns for a few years with our bombs? Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning Pearl Harbor or saying that I feel sorry for the Japanese still feeling the radiation. My point is, I think we got even when we flattened two of their cities. Why must people bring this into a normal conversation to try and prove a useless point? They killed our people & sank our ships. Therefore, we flattened two of their cities. I think we won that game.
EDIT:
Some stats...
"Hiroshima had a population of 400,000. Official statistics place the number who had died at 70,000 up to September 1st, not counting the missing ... and 130,000 wounded, among them 43,500 severely wounded."
"On August 9th, three days later, at 11:02 A.M., another B-29 dropped the second bomb on the industrial section of the city of Nagasaki, totally destroying 1 1/2 square miles of the city, killing 39,000 persons, and injuring 25,000 more."
"The United States lost 188 aircraft, three destroyers, three light cruisers, three smaller ships, and five battleships with eight more damaged. The largest ship destroyed was the U.S.S. Arizona, which was carrying 1.5 million gallons of oil when it sank. About 2,350 military personnel were killed, along with 68 civilians, and 1,178 were wounded. The Japanese lost only 27 aircraft and a few small submarines. Fighting was over by 9:45 a.m."
What do the stats mean?
Approximately 250,000 Japanese people dead to our 2,350. I know, we lost military equipment, but you can buy/build more, you can't bring our servicemen/women and our civilians back.
EDIT:
Some stats...
"Hiroshima had a population of 400,000. Official statistics place the number who had died at 70,000 up to September 1st, not counting the missing ... and 130,000 wounded, among them 43,500 severely wounded."
"On August 9th, three days later, at 11:02 A.M., another B-29 dropped the second bomb on the industrial section of the city of Nagasaki, totally destroying 1 1/2 square miles of the city, killing 39,000 persons, and injuring 25,000 more."
"The United States lost 188 aircraft, three destroyers, three light cruisers, three smaller ships, and five battleships with eight more damaged. The largest ship destroyed was the U.S.S. Arizona, which was carrying 1.5 million gallons of oil when it sank. About 2,350 military personnel were killed, along with 68 civilians, and 1,178 were wounded. The Japanese lost only 27 aircraft and a few small submarines. Fighting was over by 9:45 a.m."
What do the stats mean?
Approximately 250,000 Japanese people dead to our 2,350. I know, we lost military equipment, but you can buy/build more, you can't bring our servicemen/women and our civilians back.
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Come on ... let's be honest here, OF.
Technological Importance of Japan's Patents
Using the three indicators to analyze the technological importance of patenting by inventors from Japan reveals the following.
Current Impact. In the six commercially important industries, Japan's U.S. patents were cited more often (i.e., they had higher CII scores) than U.S. inventor patents, suggesting that Japan's patents tended to be more influential or have more impact on the advancement of those technologies. Of the six technology fields, Japan's widest margins over the United States were registered in aerospace and automotive technologies. (See figure 8.) While the high scores in the aerospace field may be the result of application crossovers from Japan's automotive patents, that can only be a partial explanation. There is widespread interest in Asia to improve aerospace manufacturing capability within the region. Several Asian economies besides Japan are also active in aerospace technologies, notably South Korea, Indonesia, and Taiwan. Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have also pursued joint ventures with U.S. aerospace companies, seeking technology transfer through licensing agreements and joint production agreements.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/s4495/conten1b.htm0 -
quote:Originally posted by 300Win_Mag
Why must people insist on bringing up Pearl Harbor when discussing the Japanese automobile market in the United States? I was talking to someone the other day about the automobile market. This person was outraged that I would even consider buying a Japanese made automobile. He insisted no one should buy/own anything Japanese made due to Pearl Harbor. I agree, Pearl Harbor was a tragedy, and many, many people lost their lives from a sneaky Japanese attack. However, didn't we make two of their cities ghost towns for a few years with our bombs? Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning Pearl Harbor or saying that I feel sorry for the Japanese still feeling the radiation. My point is, I think we got even when we flattened two of their cities. Why must people bring this into a normal conversation to try and prove a useless point? They killed our people & sank our ships. Therefore, we flattened two of their cities. I think we won that game.
EDIT:
Some stats...
"Hiroshima had a population of 400,000. Official statistics place the number who had died at 70,000 up to September 1st, not counting the missing ... and 130,000 wounded, among them 43,500 severely wounded."
"On August 9th, three days later, at 11:02 A.M., another B-29 dropped the second bomb on the industrial section of the city of Nagasaki, totally destroying 1 1/2 square miles of the city, killing 39,000 persons, and injuring 25,000 more."
"The United States lost 188 aircraft, three destroyers, three light cruisers, three smaller ships, and five battleships with eight more damaged. The largest ship destroyed was the U.S.S. Arizona, which was carrying 1.5 million gallons of oil when it sank. About 2,350 military personnel were killed, along with 68 civilians, and 1,178 were wounded. The Japanese lost only 27 aircraft and a few small submarines. Fighting was over by 9:45 a.m."
What do the stats mean?
Approximately 250,000 Japanese people dead to our 2,350. I know, we lost military equipment, but you can buy/build more, you can't bring our servicemen/women and our civilians back.
Really you want to go there. The Japanese were lucky we used the bom instead of the planned invasion. The estimated casualties of the invasion of the Japanese home islands would meke the ones for those bombed cities look tiny. The japanese started the war we ended it.
An Invasion Not Found in the History Books
by James Martin Davis
reprinted from the Omaha World Herald, November 1987
Deep in the recesses of the National Archives in Washington, D.C., hidden for nearly four decades lie thousands of pages of yellowing and dusty documents stamped "Top Secret". These documents, now declassified, are the plans for Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan during World War II. Only a few Americans in 1945 were aware of the elaborate plans that had been prepared for the Allied Invasion of the Japanese home islands. Even fewer today are aware of the defenses the Japanese had prepared to counter the invasion had it been launched. Operation Downfall was finalized during the spring and summer of 1945. It called for two massive military undertakings to be carried out in succession and aimed at the heart of the Japanese Empire.
In the first invasion - code named Operation Olympic - American combat troops would land on Japan by amphibious assault during the early morning hours of November 1, 1945 - 50 years ago. Fourteen combat divisions of soldiers and Marines would land on heavily fortified and defended Kyushu, the southernmost of the Japanese home islands, after an unprecedented naval and aerial bombardment.
The second invasion on March 1, 1946 - code named Operation Coronet - would send at least 22 divisions against 1 million Japanese defenders on the main island of Honshu and the Tokyo Plain. It's goal: the unconditional surrender of Japan. With the exception of a part of the British Pacific Fleet, Operation Downfall was to be a strictly American operation. It called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the 7th Army Air Force, the 8 Air Force (recently redeployed from Europe), 10th Air Force and the American Far Eastern Air Force. More than 1.5 million combat soldiers, with 3 million more in support or more than 40% of all servicemen still in uniform in 1945 - would be directly involved in the two amphibious assaults. Casualties were expected to be extremely heavy.
Admiral William Leahy estimated that there would be more than 250,000 Americans killed or wounded on Kyushu alone. General Charles Willoughby, chief of intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, the Supreme Commander of the Southwest Pacific, estimated American casualties would be one million men by the fall of 1946. Willoughby's own intelligence staff considered this to be a conservative estimate.
During the summer of 1945, America had little time to prepare for such an endeavor, but top military leaders were in almost unanimous agreement that an invasion was necessary.
While naval blockade and strategic bombing of Japan was considered to be useful, General MacArthur, for instance, did not believe a blockade would bring about an unconditional surrender. The advocates for invasion agreed that while a naval blockade chokes, it does not kill; and though strategic bombing might destroy cities, it leaves whole armies intact.
So on May 25, 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, after extensive deliberation, issued to General MacArthur, Admiral Chester Nimitz, and Army Air Force General Henry Arnold, the top secret directive to proceed with the invasion of Kyushu. The target date was after the typhoon season.
President Truman approved the plans for the invasions July 24. Two days later, the United Nations issued the Potsdam Proclamation, which called upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or face total destruction. Three days later, the Japanese governmental news agency broadcast to the world that Japan would ignore the proclamation and would refuse to surrender. During this sane period it was learned -- via monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts -- that Japan had closed all schools and mobilized its schoolchildren, was arming its civilian population and was fortifying caves and building underground defenses.
Operation Olympic called for a four pronged assault on Kyushu. Its purpose was to seize and control the southern one-third of that island and establish naval and air bases, to tighten the naval blockade of the home islands, to destroy units of the main Japanese army and to support the later invasion of the Tokyo Plain.
The preliminary invasion would began October 27 when the 40th Infantry Division would land on a series of small islands west and southwest of Kyushu. At the same time, the 158th Regimental Combat Team would invade and occupy a small island 28 miles south of Kyushu. On these islands, seaplane bases would be established and radar would be set up to provide advance air warning for the invasion fleet, to serve as fighter direction centers for the carrier-based aircraft and to provide an emergency anchorage for the invasion fleet, should things not go well on the day of the invasion. As the invasion grew imminent, the massive firepower of the Navy - the Third and Fifth Fleets -- would approach Japan. The Third Fleet, under Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, with its big guns and naval aircraft, would provide strategic support for the operation against Honshu and Hokkaido. Halsey's fleet would be composed of battleships, heavy cruisers, destroyers, dozens of support ships and three fast carrier task groups. From these carriers, hundreds of Navy fighters, dive bombers and torpedo planes would hit targets all over the island of Honshu. The 3,000 ship Fifth Fleet, under Admiral Raymond Spruance, would carry the invasion troops.
Several days before the invasion, the battleships, heavy cruisers and destroyers would pour thousands of tons of high explosives into the target areas. They would not cease the bombardment until after the land forces had been launched. During the early morning hours of November 1, the invasion would begin. Thousands of soldiers and Marines would pour ashore on beaches all along the eastern, southeastern, southern and western coasts of Kyushu. Waves of Helldivers, Dauntless dive bombers, Avengers, Corsairs, and Hellcats from 66 aircraft carriers would bomb, rocket and strafe enemy defenses, gun emplacements and troop concentrations along the beaches.
The Eastern Assault Force consisting of the 25th, 33rd and 41st Infantry Divisions would land near Miyaski, at beaches called Austin, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, and Ford, and move inland to attempt to capture the city and its nearby airfield. The Southern Assault Force, consisting of the 1st Cavalry Division, the 43rd Division and Americal Division would land inside Ariake Bay at beaches labeled DeSoto, Dusenberg, Essex, Ford, and Franklin and attempt to capture Shibushi and the city of Kanoya and its airfield.
On the western shore of Kyushu, at beaches Pontiac, Reo, Rolls Royce, Saxon, Star, Studebaker, Stutz, Winston and Zephyr, the V Amphibious Corps would land the 2nd, 3rd and 5th Marine Divisions, sending half of its force inland to Sendai and the other half to the port city of Kagoshima.
On November 4, the Reserve Force, consisting of the 81st and 98th Infantry Divisions and the 11th Airborne Division, after feigning an attack of the island of Shikoku, would be landed -- if not needed elsewhere -- near Kaimondake, near the southernmost tip of Kagoshima Bay, at the beaches designated Locomobile, Lincoln, LaSalle, Hupmobile, Moon, Mercedes, Maxwell, Overland, Oldsmobile, Packard and Plymouth.
Olympic was not just a plan for invasion, but for conquest and occupation as well. It was expected to take four months to achieve its objective, with the three fresh American divisions per month to be landed in support of that operation if needed.
If all went well with Olympic, Coronet would be launched March 1, 1946. Coronet would be twice the size of Olympic, with as many as 28 divisions landing on Honshu.
All along the coast east of Tokyo, the American 1st Army would land the 5th, 7th, 27th, 44th, 86th, and 96th Infantry Divisions along with the 4th and 6th Marine Divisions.
At Sagami Bay, just south of Tokyo, the entire 8th and 10th Armies would strike north and east to clear the long western shore of Tokyo Bay and attempt to go as far as Yokohama. The assault troops landing south of Tokyo would be the 4th, 6th, 8th, 24th, 31st, 37th, 38th and 8th Infantry Divisions, along with the 13th and 20th Armored Divisions.
Following the initial assault, eight more divisions - the 2nd, 28th, 35th, 91st, 95th, 97th and 104th Infantry Divisions and the 11th Airborne Division -- would be landed. If additional troops were needed, as expected, other divisions redeployed from Europe and undergoing training in the United States would be shipped to Japan in what was hoped to be the final push.
Captured Japanese documents and post war interrogations of Japanese military leaders disclose that information concerning the number of Japanese planes available for the defense of the home islands was dangerously in error.
During the sea battle at Okinawa alone, Japanese kamakaze aircraft sank 32 Allied ships and damaged more than 400 others. But during the summer of 1945, American top brass concluded that the Japanese had spent their air force since American bombers and fighters daily flew unmolested over Japan.
What the military leaders did not know was that by the end of July the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel, and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battle for their homeland.
As part of Ketsu-Go, the name for the plan to defend Japan -- the Japanese were building 20 suicide takeoff strips in southern Kyushu with underground hangars. They also had 35 camouflaged airfields and nine seaplane bases.
On the night before the expected invasion, 50 Japanese seaplane bombers, 100 former carrier aircraft and 50 land based army planes were to be launched in a suicide attack on the fleet.
The Japanese had 58 more airfields in Korea, western Honshu and Shikoku, which also were to be used for massive suicide attacks.
Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks.
In August 1945, however, unknown to Allied intelligence, the Japanese still had 5, 651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12, 725 planes of all types. Every village had some type of aircraft manufacturing activity. Hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, work was being done to construct new planes.
Additionally, the Japanese were building newer and more effective models of the Okka, a rocket-propelled bomb much like the German V-1, but flown by a suicide pilot.
When the invasion became imminent, Ketsu-Go called for a fourfold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships.
While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over kyushu. A second force of 330 navy combat pilots were to attack the main body of the task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover to protect the troop carrying transports. While these two forces were engaged, a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports.
As the invasion convoys approached their anchorages, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour by hour attacks.
By mid-morning of the first day of the invasion, most of the American land-based aircraft would be forced to return to their bases, leaving the defense against the suicide planes to the carrier pilots and the shipboard gunners.
Carrier pilots crippled by fatigue would have to land time and time again to rearm and refuel. Guns would malfunction from the heat of continuous firing and ammunition would become scarce. Gun crews would be exhausted by nightfall, but still the waves of kamikaze would continue. With the fleet hovering off the beaches, all remaining Japanese aircraft would be committed to nonstop suicide attacks, which the Japanese hoped could be sustained for 10 days. The Japanese planned to coordinate their air strikes with attacks from the 40 remaining submarines from the Imperial Navy -- some armed with Long Lance torpedoes with a range of 20 miles -- when the invasion fleet was 180 miles off Kyushu.
The Imperial Navy had 23 destroyers and two cruisers which were operational. These ships were to be used to counterattack the American invasion. A number of the destroyers were to be beached at the last minute to be used as anti-invasion gun platforms.
Once offshore, the invasion fleet would be forced to defend not only against the attacks from the air, but would also be confronted with suicide attacks from sea. Japan had established a suicide naval attack unit of midget submarines, human torpedoes and exploding motorboats.
The goal of the Japanese was to shatter the invasion before the landing. The Japanese were convinced the Americans would back off or become so demoralized that they would then accept a less-than-unconditional surrender and a more honorable and face-saving end for the Japanese.
But as horrible as the battle of Japan would be off the beaches, it would be on Japanese soil that the American forces would face the most rugged and fanatical defense encountered during the war.
Throughout the island-hopping Pacific campaign, Allied troops had always out numbered the Japanese by 2 to 1 and sometimes 3 to 1. In Japan it would be different. By virtue of a combination of cunning, guesswork, and brilliant military reasoning, a number of Japan's top military leaders were able to deduce, not only when, but where, the United States would land its first invasion forces.
Facing the 14 American divisions landing at Kyushu would be 14 Japanese divisions, 7 independent mixed brigades, 3 tank brigades and thousands of naval troops. On Kyushu the odds would be 3 to 2 in favor of the Japanese, with 790,000 enemy defenders against 550,000 Americans. This time the bulk of the Japanese defenders would not be the poorly trained and ill-equipped labor battalions that the Americans had faced in the earlier campaigns.
The Japanese defenders would be the hard core of the home army. These troops were well-fed and well equipped. They were familiar with the terrain, had stockpiles of arms and ammunition, and had developed an effective system of transportation and supply almost invisible from the air. Many of these Japanese troops were the elite of the army, and they were swollen with a fanatical fighting spirit.
Japan's network of beach defenses consisted of offshore mines, thousands of suicide scuba divers attacking landing craft, and mines planted on the beaches. Coming ashore, the American Eastern amphibious assault forces at Miyazaki would face three Japanese divisions, and two others poised for counterattack. Awaiting the Southeastern attack force at Ariake Bay was an entire division and at least one mixed infantry brigade.
On the western shores of Kyushu, the Marines would face the most brutal opposition. Along the invasion beaches would be the three Japanese divisions , a tank brigade, a mixed infantry brigade and an artillery command. Components of two divisions would also be poised to launch counterattacks.
If not needed to reinforce the primary landing beaches, the American Reserve Force would be landed at the base of Kagoshima Bay November 4, where they would be confronted by two mixed infantry brigades, parts of two infantry divisions and thousands of naval troops.
All along the invasion beaches, American troops would face coastal batteries, anti-landing obstacles and a network of heavily fortified pillboxes, bunkers, and underground fortresses. As Americans waded ashore, they would face intense artillery and mortar fire as they worked their way through concrete rubble and barbed-wire entanglements arranged to funnel them into the muzzles of these Japanese guns.
On the beaches and beyond would be hundreds of Japanese machine gun positions, beach mines, booby traps, trip-wire mines and sniper units. Suicide units concealed in "spider holes" would engage the troops as they passed nearby. In the heat of battle, Japanese infiltration units would be sent to reap havoc in the American lines by cutting phone and communication lines. Some of the Japanese troops would be in American uniform, English-speaking Japanese officers were assigned to break in on American radio traffic to call off artillery fire, to order retreats and to further confuse troops. Other infiltration with demolition charges strapped on their chests or backs wold attempt to blow up american tanks, artillery pieces and ammunition stores as they were unloaded ashore.
Beyond the beaches were large artillery pieces situated to bring down a curtain of fire on the beach. Some of these large guns were mounted on railroad tracks running in and out of caves protected by concrete and steel.
The battle for Japan would be won by what Simon Bolivar Buckner, a lieutenant general in the Confederate army during the Civil War, had called "Prairie Dog Warfare." This type of fighting was almost unknown to the ground troops in Europe and the Mediterranean. It was peculiar only to the soldiers and Marines who fought the Japanese on islands all over the Pacific -- at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
Prairie Dog Warfare was a battle for yards, feet and sometimes inches. It was brutal, deadly and dangerous form of combat aimed at an underground, heavily fortified, non-retreating enemy.
In the mountains behind the Japanese beaches were underground networks of caves, bunkers, command posts and hospitals connected by miles of tunnels with dozens of entrances and exits. Some of these complexes could hold up to 1,000 troops.
In addition to the use of poison gas and bacteriological warfare (which the Japanese had experimented with), Japan mobilized its citizenry.
Had Olympic come about, the Japanese civilian population, inflamed by a national slogan - "One Hundred Million Will Die for the Emperor and Nation" - were prepared to fight to the death. Twenty Eight Million Japanese had become a part of the National Volunteer Combat Force. They were armed with ancient rifles, lunge mines, satchel charges, Molotov cocktails and one-shot black powder mortars. Others were armed with swords, long bows, axes and bamboo spears. The civilian units were to be used in nighttime attacks, hit and run maneuvers, delaying actions and massive suicide charges at the weaker American positions.
At the early stage of the invasion, 1,000 Japanese and American soldiers would be dying every hour.
The invasion of Japan never became a reality because on August 6, 1945, an atomic bomb was exploded over Hiroshima. Three days later, a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. Within days the war with Japan was at a close.
Had these bombs not been dropped and had the invasion been launched as scheduled, combat casualties in Japan would have been at a minimum of the tens of thousands. Every foot of Japanese soil would have been paid for by Japanese and American lives.
One can only guess at how many civilians would have committed suicide in their homes or in futile mass military attacks.
In retrospect, the 1 million American men who were to be the casualties of the invasion, were instead lucky enough to survive the war.
Intelligence studies and military estimates made 50 years ago, and not latter-day speculation, clearly indicate that the battle for Japan might well have resulted in the biggest blood-bath in the history of modern warfare.
Far worse would be what might have happened to Japan as a nation and as a culture. When the invasion came, it would have come after several months of fire bombing all of the remaining Japanese cities. The cost in human life that resulted from the two atomic blasts would be small in comparison to the total number of Japanese lives that would have been lost by this aerial devastation.
With American forces locked in combat in the south of Japan, little could have prevented the Soviet Union from marching into the northern half of the Japanese home islands. Japan today cold be divided much like Korea and Germany.
The world was spared the cost of Operation Downfall, however, because Japan formally surrendered to the United Nations September 2, 1945, and World War II was over.
The aircraft carriers, cruisers and transport ships scheduled to carry the invasion troops to Japan, ferried home American troops in a gigantic operation called Magic Carpet.
In the fall of 1945, in the aftermath of the war, few people concerned themselves with the invasion plans. Following the surrender, the classified documents, maps, diagrams and appendices for Operation Downfall were packed away in boxes and eventually stored at the National Archives. These plans that called for the invasion of Japan paint a vivid description of what might have been one of the most horrible campaigns in the history of man. The fact that the story of the invasion of Japan is locked up in the National Archives and is not told in our history books is something for which all Americans can be thankful.0 -
wipala
Thats some interesting history...Thanks for posting....0 -
President Truman approved the plans for the invasions July 24. Two days later, the United Nations issued the Potsdam Proclamation, which called upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or face total destruction. Three days later, the Japanese governmental news agency broadcast to the world that Japan would ignore the proclamation and would refuse to surrender. During this sane period it was learned -- via monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts -- that Japan had closed all schools and mobilized its schoolchildren, was arming its civilian population and was fortifying caves and building underground defenses.
So the Japs were planning suicide attacks on our forces using children and you think we should have not done anything to stop it. You are ignorant, the use of nuclear weapons saved Japan from complete destruction. Our rebuilding programs built Japan into the nation it is today. We should have left it a smoking ruin cut off from the rest of the world. Just as we should have destroyed Afghanistan and Iraq and left them to live or die on their own.0 -
The Confederate battle flag in tobfree's post is an example od leftover hate from the American civil war. I travel south Georgia on a regular basis and see that flag flying alone in front of many, many properties. One such property is near Reidsville GA and has this professionaly printed sign over the archway at the beginning of the driveway: "Nig==rs and Jews will be shot on site" (sic)
Allowing hatered to live on is not productive. I know a lot of you claim to be Christians. When Christ was asked how many times one should forgive he said "...seven? nay, seven times seven..."
I kept a grudge against my sister for years. It was only after I learned to forgive that I really began to live.0 -
The grudge against the Japanese is an imaginary one. It is justification for what most of you are really feeling: you cant stand that a foreign country is capable of succeeding where we fail. America has been failing at the car business while Japan has had pretty consistent success.
If you're going to hate the Japanese, hate them for the real reason and stop parading Pearl Harbor around like some bleeding heart liberal.0 -
Bring up Pearl Harbor in respects to the Japanese I would guess is an older generations "thing". I don't think you'll find the "X" generation doing much of that. I'm a "baby-boomer" myself, and could see some of my generation bring it up, probably only because we were so "close" to it. I do have to admit, the Japanese culture has a propensity for a "spotty memory" about WWII, and I do think this tends to infuriate most people that remember or has knowledge of the true Japanese history. The times they do remember they try to portray themselves as "victims" of American politics of the day. For myself, my Dad fought in the Philippines and was part of the occupation forces on Japan. He held no animosity against the Japanese during my up-bring ...maybe during the war years? But I can bring myself to "hate" the Japanese because of Pearl Harbor. ...Now their arrogant altitude against "foreigners", unless they want something from you rubs my fur backwards! 0 -
Interesting post about Coronet and Olympic. If anyone has a serious interest in how they would have played out, I reccommend Death is Lighter than a Feather
We would have won eventually, but the cost to both sides would have been staggering. Since a lot of GI's in Europe were going to be sent to the Pacific for the invasion, a lot of us Boomers probably would not be here today.
[:0]
Here's the book I'm talking about. Hard to find actually;
Death Is Lighter Than a Feather
Address:http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/1995/westheim.htm Changed:3:10 PM on Wednesday, October 15, 20030 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
Come on ... let's be honest here, OF.
Technological Importance of Japan's Patents
Using the three indicators to analyze the technological importance of patenting by inventors from Japan reveals the following.
Current Impact. In the six commercially important industries, Japan's U.S. patents were cited more often (i.e., they had higher CII scores) than U.S. inventor patents, suggesting that Japan's patents tended to be more influential or have more impact on the advancement of those technologies. Of the six technology fields, Japan's widest margins over the United States were registered in aerospace and automotive technologies. (See figure 8.) While the high scores in the aerospace field may be the result of application crossovers from Japan's automotive patents, that can only be a partial explanation. There is widespread interest in Asia to improve aerospace manufacturing capability within the region. Several Asian economies besides Japan are also active in aerospace technologies, notably South Korea, Indonesia, and Taiwan. Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have also pursued joint ventures with U.S. aerospace companies, seeking technology transfer through licensing agreements and joint production agreements.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/s4495/conten1b.htm
Like I said, look at the Nobel awards. We have been the leader in aerospace for well over 50 years. The Japs build small commuter planes, not anything using state of the art tech. Why? Because we do not hand out such tech. As for patent usage, that means nothing without knowing which patents were referenced. A patent for a whirly gig is not, rpt not, high tech!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
Not defending Japan but it's interesting what n industrialised nation will do
if you attempt to cut off it's oil. It certainly eliminates a lot of options. The
real tragedy of Pearl Harbor was that we expected the Japanese to just
laugh off the imminent loss of their oil. FDR and the military knew it was
coming but didn't second guess where ... and how much. A sad blunder of
history.
Gee, I thought you were going to talk about Iraq.0 -
quote:Originally posted by whompuss
The Confederate battle flag in tobfree's post is an example od leftover hate from the American civil war. I travel south Georgia on a regular basis and see that flag flying alone in front of many, many properties. One such property is near Reidsville GA and has this professionaly printed sign over the archway at the beginning of the driveway: "Nig==rs and Jews will be shot on site" (sic)
Allowing hatered to live on is not productive. I know a lot of you claim to be Christians. When Christ was asked how many times one should forgive he said "...seven? nay, seven times seven..."
I kept a grudge against my sister for years. It was only after I learned to forgive that I really began to live.
By this line of reasoning then the cross is a hate symbol.0 -
Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug. 
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quote:Originally posted by mcaso
JamesRK - Did you know that Garner Ted Armstrong got Christain education from the JWs? It seems his faimly were members who broke away and started their own thing.
I don't know a lot about Garner Ted Armstrong, and it's a bit off the subject, but to answer your question, I do know he was an outstanding public speaker. His father, Herbert W. Armstrong, was raised as a Quaker. He later became a member of the Church of God (Seventh-Day), but he was baptized by a Baptist minister because he didn't like the way the Church of God (Seventh-Day) did it. He separated from the Church of God (Seventh-Day) and founded the Worldwide Church of God. Garner Ted Armstrong was in line to take over the Worldwide Church of God, but had some kind of disagreement with Herbert W. Armstrong and was excommunicated. I think it had something to do with money and women, but I don't really remember. After that Garner Ted Armstrong started his own church. I don't remember what the name of that one is. I could be mistaken, but I think Garner Ted Armstrong is dead now.0 -
quote:Originally posted by eboydell
WHOMPUSS, That is just a Southern thing...you would not understand! What he really meant was; "Come on in for some sweet tea, take off your shoes, RELAX!"[;)]
He can take his sweet tea and shove it up his ass.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MosinNagantDisciple
The grudge against the Japanese is an imaginary one. It is justification for what most of you are really feeling: you cant stand that a foreign country is capable of succeeding where we fail. America has been failing at the car business while Japan has had pretty consistent success.
If you're going to hate the Japanese, hate them for the real reason and stop parading Pearl Harbor around like some bleeding heart liberal.
Fail...When did we fail!!! I must have missed that one.... We had our ups and downs but saying we haved failed is kinda far of base...Don't you think!!! We ain't heard the bell ringing or the fat lady singing quite yet... Nope I have never once thought that the Japanese are better than us at anything.
Dude this goes back long before I ever even saw a freaking Japanese car...Back to when I sit on Grammy's lap as she showed me the pics of Uncle Clyde during WWII...Whom by the freaking way is still MIA....so cram that into your Japanese loving pipe and smoke it.... In my family "WE NEVER FORGET" means just that..0 -
quote:Originally posted by whompuss
The Confederate battle flag in tobfree's post is an example od leftover hate from the American civil war.
You condemn Americans for flying the southern cross. Well some of those nasty southerners helped capture this evil flag.
Which by the way I saw flying over some Fine God fearing country a while back. Can't recall which one though..But i'm sure it'll come to me just in the nick of time....0 -
The UN did not exist in July of 1945, except in a couple of vague general statements using the term "united nations".
Here's from the UN website on their history.
"The United Nations officially came into existence on 24 October 1945, when the Charter had been ratified by China, France, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and a majority of other signatories. United Nations Day is celebrated on 24 October each year."
http://www.un.org/aboutun/unhistory/0 -
quote:Originally posted by eboydell
OK! Now we can end this discussion. If you buy "JAP JUNK", then those 2500 American boys at the bottom of Pearl Harbor don't mean anything to you! (Period, end of story!)[;)]
Wrong.0 -
quote:Originally posted by eboydell
TOBEFREE, If we would not have gotten tired of killing Yankees, we still could have won WWII all by our Southern selves. (And had some sweet tea afterwards!)[;)]
You Southern boys tire mighty easily. Guess that comes from having your slaves do all the work while you sit around on your fat asses drinking 'sweet tea.'
Yeah, I went there. [:(!]0 -
Coulda, shoulda, woulda... what the filthy japs MIGHT have done has no bearing on anything.
Those cowardly, treacherous, little yellow piles of offal gave up. Just because we dropped a couple of little bitty nukes on them. Where was all their spirit of bushido ?? Guess they got the spirit of "let's quit 'cause we are NEVER gonna whip the Americans"
By the way - what the hell would they do with their auto industry if we didn't buy cars from them ??
And how well would they have recovered from their humiliating defeat of World War II if WE hadn't given them our money to do it.
I'll tell you - without us, they'd still be squattin and droppin their babies in rice fields, and trying to figure out how to build a bicycle.
Face it, you America haters - WE ARE THE BEST THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Coulda, shoulda, woulda... what the filthy japs MIGHT have done has no bearing on anything.
Those cowardly, treacherous, little yellow piles of offal gave up. Just because we dropped a couple of little bitty nukes on them. Where was all their spirit of bushido ?? Guess they got the spirit of "let's quit 'cause we are NEVER gonna whip the Americans"
By the way - what the hell would they do with their auto industry if we didn't buy cars from them ??
And how well would they have recovered from their humiliating defeat of World War II if WE hadn't given them our money to do it.
I'll tell you - without us, they'd still be squattin and droppin their babies in rice fields, and trying to figure out how to build a bicycle.
Face it, you America haters - WE ARE THE BEST THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN.
Doug
Said very well, Sir![;)]0 -
Seems kinda ridiculous to condemn the actions that occured behind this flag
When an entire nation of Redskinned American men women and children were butchered behind this one!!!
Now if you'll let me get back to hammering people that choose to buy cars from the people that fly this flag0 -
Wow! So how many of you are going to try out for Are You Smarter Than a Doorstop?
No one seems interested in learning anything new. Happy just to carry grudges and stagnant ways of thinking. Fortunately, progress is not bound by a base nature but is always reaching to do better and prosper.0 -
+1A1+
[:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Wow! So how many of you are going to try out for Are You Smarter Than a Doorstop?
No one seems interested in learning anything new. Happy just to carry grudges and stagnant ways of thinking. Fortunately, progress is not bound by a base nature but is always reaching to do better and prosper.
And is our brave new world coming soon, with 20 million Mexican illegals, another example of progress, to you?
Reaching to do better, and prosper by turning America into a third world country.
Off topic of the Japs, but your statement should still apply,....correct?
Maybe just something "new" that we need to learn.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Wow! So how many of you are going to try out for Are You Smarter Than a Doorstop?
No one seems interested in learning anything new. Happy just to carry grudges and stagnant ways of thinking. Fortunately, progress is not bound by a base nature but is always reaching to do better and prosper.
And is our brave new world coming soon, with 20 million Mexican illegals, another example of progress, to you?
Reaching to do better, and prosper by turning America into a third world country.
Off topic of the Japs, but your statement should still apply,....correct?
Maybe just something "new" that we need to learn.
Actually, off topic, I'm not sure what is going to happen with the Mexicans. However, one would be a fool to sit around and bitch without thinking of making the best possible outcome of a situation. So to answer your question, I don't know if it would be progress or not, but I won't be one of the one's crying in my beer and wringing my hands. I'm smarter than that.[:p]0 -
History 99.9% of America never gets taught: The same day Japan attacked Pearl Harbor they attacked and took US Soil. They kept it for 3 YEARS. The Japanese sent US military members and Americans to slave labor camps, few made it back alive. Anyone care to guess what US Soil this was?
They beheaded the priest and bayoneted to death 7 American GI's trying to hide from the occupation.....Only 1 American survived that occupation.....1 American.
The Japanese people were not/are not soldiers like us, I don't recall us beheading religous figures in WWII....capturing Japanese and bringing them back to work our farms as slaves.
The posts about Japan not being able to make any high tech stuff is absolutely ridiculous. They may be buying US military aircraft and ships but they gutted the frames and created/installed all their own electronics.
Ever heard of Sony? They've made Billions from the walkman, trinitron tv's, transistor radios, playstation, and on and on and on.....selling their goods to Americans.
Move on to the automobile. Who is the global biggest seller of automobiles? Japan.
Who on Earth is right now defeating the US Marines? Japan. They are kicking the 3rd Marines out of Okinowa.
The Japanese are like the Israeli's....they believe in a blood race and are Nationalistic...history will tell you where they are going with that again.
I PRAY the US Marines have the brains to plant a remote controlled nuclear bomb under the ground in Okinowa they are getting kicked off of........something to use in the next war against Japan.0 -
Once, a long time ago, I was roundly vilified for stating a (sorta) tongue-in-cheek opinion on Japan, so I won't do it again.
Suffice it to say that my dad was a WWII Pacific theater vet, and his opinion of that part of the world rubbed off on me.0 -
+1 nunn, me too. me too.[;)] 0 -
Here's a thread posted about 4 years ago. Japanese haters pay no attention, but since Windtalkers, Flags of Our Fathers, and Letters from Iwo Jima, prices for Japanese weapons have gone way up. These were something, unlike MG's, that the average man could have invested in.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=72092&SearchTerms=collect
You can still sometimes buy them cheap from the haters as they should not even want them in the house regardless of the value. [}:)]
[:D]
Haters, got any you just want me to haul off? [;)]0
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