Using Pearl Harbor to argue against Japan??
Why must people insist on bringing up Pearl Harbor when discussing the Japanese automobile market in the United States? I was talking to someone the other day about the automobile market. This person was outraged that I would even consider buying a Japanese made automobile. He insisted no one should buy/own anything Japanese made due to Pearl Harbor. I agree, Pearl Harbor was a tragedy, and many, many people lost their lives from a sneaky Japanese attack. However, didn't we make two of their cities ghost towns for a few years with our bombs? Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning Pearl Harbor or saying that I feel sorry for the Japanese still feeling the radiation. My point is, I think we got even when we flattened two of their cities. Why must people bring this into a normal conversation to try and prove a useless point? They killed our people & sank our ships. Therefore, we flattened two of their cities. I think we won that game.
EDIT:
Some stats...
"Hiroshima had a population of 400,000. Official statistics place the number who had died at 70,000 up to September 1st, not counting the missing ... and 130,000 wounded, among them 43,500 severely wounded."
"On August 9th, three days later, at 11:02 A.M., another B-29 dropped the second bomb on the industrial section of the city of Nagasaki, totally destroying 1 1/2 square miles of the city, killing 39,000 persons, and injuring 25,000 more."
"The United States lost 188 aircraft, three destroyers, three light cruisers, three smaller ships, and five battleships with eight more damaged. The largest ship destroyed was the U.S.S. Arizona, which was carrying 1.5 million gallons of oil when it sank. About 2,350 military personnel were killed, along with 68 civilians, and 1,178 were wounded. The Japanese lost only 27 aircraft and a few small submarines. Fighting was over by 9:45 a.m."
What do the stats mean?
Approximately 250,000 Japanese people dead to our 2,350. I know, we lost military equipment, but you can buy/build more, you can't bring our servicemen/women and our civilians back.
EDIT:
Some stats...
"Hiroshima had a population of 400,000. Official statistics place the number who had died at 70,000 up to September 1st, not counting the missing ... and 130,000 wounded, among them 43,500 severely wounded."
"On August 9th, three days later, at 11:02 A.M., another B-29 dropped the second bomb on the industrial section of the city of Nagasaki, totally destroying 1 1/2 square miles of the city, killing 39,000 persons, and injuring 25,000 more."
"The United States lost 188 aircraft, three destroyers, three light cruisers, three smaller ships, and five battleships with eight more damaged. The largest ship destroyed was the U.S.S. Arizona, which was carrying 1.5 million gallons of oil when it sank. About 2,350 military personnel were killed, along with 68 civilians, and 1,178 were wounded. The Japanese lost only 27 aircraft and a few small submarines. Fighting was over by 9:45 a.m."
What do the stats mean?
Approximately 250,000 Japanese people dead to our 2,350. I know, we lost military equipment, but you can buy/build more, you can't bring our servicemen/women and our civilians back.
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When we go to war it is because our country asks(orders) us to. The marjority of the soldiers who point their guns at us are no different than you or me. Yes there are exceptions, there are always exceptions. But most of the time he is just a regular guy. To hold a grudge or hate is not something that I can do. Besides holding a grudge is not a healthy thing for a person to do.
For an American to cry about Pearl Harbour is no different than a Japanese crying about the atom bombs. Like the man said they started it and we finished it. It is over. Time to get a life and move on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Donld
ToBeFree, you are sick! You just advocated killing my wife, who happened to be just under two years old when the war ended. It's people like you, who advocate slaughtering the innocent along with the guilty that have given the human race its worst history. Maybe if you actually knew some of the people you'd so gleefully murder, you'd think twice before spewing out your vile comments. I consider myself a moderate man, but you have me shaking with a rage I haven't felt since people with the same types of racial and cultural hatreds you share brought down the twin towers.
Whatever...But if we ever have leaders such as Japan and Germany had during WWII I'll be dead long before we are nuked trying to kill the ***'s myself instead of sitting on my ass and acting like I'm innocent.... When a Hitler or such gains power. if you ain't trying to kill him you are guilty...And if you a two yrs and we nuke you, I didn't kill you your daddy and mommy did!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by mcaso
When we go to war it is because our country asks(orders) us to. The marjority of the soldiers who point their guns at us are no different than you or me. Yes there are exceptions, there are always exceptions. But most of the time he is just a regular guy. To hold a grudge or hate is not something that I can do. Besides holding a grudge is not a healthy thing for a person to do.
For an American to cry about Pearl Harbour is no different than a Japanese crying about the atom bombs. Like the man said they started it and we finished it. It is over. Time to get a life and move on.
Yep it is time to make a treaty with bin Laden and be pals.....It is over. Time to get a life and move on.0 -
Maybe we can drop some Japanese cars on bin laden? I would love to see it. Fill up a big ol cargo plane full of new jap junk and bombs away from about 10k feet up. Whole cars flying thru the air...... 0 -
When I was stationed at Pearl Harbor I was riding in a Jeep with one of my friends.....a car with some Japanese tourists pulled up next to us at the red light and the driver asked...."Where is the Arizona memorial?" PO Behme yelled out...."RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT IT!" then drove off spinning his tires.
I never will forget that.0 -
quote:quote:
Originally posted by tsavo303
ha
what kind of car to you drive
many fords are imports, or have a huge % of non domestic parts
quote:
Originally posted by bamafan
Some people look at from different perspectives. As far as the numbers regarding who killed more, yes we won. The way I look at buying foreign vehicles, I spend my money where I make it. U.S.A.
I own and drive three chevys. I see where you are coming from, but that is just the way I feel about the situaion.
My Father-in-law drives on of those evil Japanese trucks that was designed in California and built in Tennessee, I would never drive a foreign car like that so I drive a Chevy that was made in Canada, But I used to have a Ford that was made in Mexico. Yup, none of those foreign cars for me.0 -
No, we did NOT "more than make up" for Pearl Harbor. People like the originator of this post and others of their ilk have no concept of reality. As Clausewitz explained, "war is politics by another means." For the slower among us, the short answer is that what Japan failed to accomplish at Pearl Harbor and the war that followed, you have helped them accomplish and much more. Or to put it even more bluntly, every time you buy a Japanese product you are desecrating the honor of all those who fought and died so that you could have the freedom to behave like a blithering idiot!!!!!!! 0 -
Most Japanese and American children think the United States and Japan were allies during World War Two. That is the Japanese and American children who know there was a World War Two. Japanese children can't understand why the United States dropped the big one on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They do know about that. That is the part which is taught in Japanese schools. 0 -
quote:Don McManus:
And whose might it have been? If you will remember, old timer, at the time we were the largest oil producing and exporting country in the world.
Sorry Don, when I read someone state that WWII - in the Pacific - started because the US (and you should know, Britain also) cut off Japan's oil to save the poor Chinese, it's apparent to me, at least, you're reading from the Little Golden Book of WWII.
Sorry ... it's just a tad more complicated than that old propaganda line. You might want to read up on what actually was going on.[:D].
http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm
But the key to America's early involvement occurred on September 28, 1940, when Japan, Germany and Italy signed the Tripartite Treaty. This treaty required that any of the three nations had to respond by declaring war should any one of the other three be attacked by any of the Allied nations. This meant that should Japan attack the United States, and the United States responded by declaring war against Japan, it would automatically be at war with the other two nations, Germany and Italy.
Roosevelt now knew that war with Japan meant war with Germany. His problem was solved.
He had made secret commitments to Winston Churchill and the English government to become involved in the war against Germany and he knew that the only way he could fulfill his secret commitments to Churchill to get us into the war, without openly dishonoring his pledges to the American people to keep us out, was by provoking Germany or Japan to attack.
Roosevelt moved towards the Pacific theater first, knowing that, if he could provoke Japan to attack America first, America would automatically be at war with Germany as well. He also knew that, should Germany attack America, Japan would have to declare war on America. So Roosevelt attempted to get either nation to attack the United States first. Japan was to get the first opportunity.
In October, 1940, Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox sent for Admiral J.O. Richardson, Commander-in-Chief of the American fleet in the Pacific. Knox advised him that the President wanted him to establish a patrol of the Pacific-a wall of American naval vessels stretched across the western Pacific in such a way as to make it impossible for Japan to reach any of her sources of supply; a blockade of Japan to prevent by force her use of any part of the Pacific Ocean. Richardson protested vigorously. He said that would be an act of war, and besides, we would lose our navy. Of course Roosevelt had to abandon it.
This scene in history poses two rather interesting questions:
Why did Roosevelt, the Commander-in-Chief of all armed forces, including the Navy, not directly order Admiral Richardson to do as he wished? Why did he choose to use his Secretary of the Navy to almost politely ask him to create the naval patrol? etc., etc., etc.0 -
For the record, tobefree, I would have dropped the bombs on Japan too if the only alternative had been invading the Japanese home islands--your first duty in any war is to consider the lives of your own men--and I hope too that I would fight any tyrants that could come to power in this country, but both are a far cry from machine-gunning fleeing children while sanctimoniously saying their parents are responsible because they didn't stop their government. American troops and militia have committed unforgivable atrocities in wars from Indian conflicts to Vietnam to Iraq,--every war mankind has ever fought is full of incidents that prove that evil exists in individuals of every race and creed- but while I am deeply ashamed of their actions, neither my children nor I deserve to be punished for them. Do the actions of Bloody Bill Anderson and the conditions at Andersonville cause you to forego buying clothes made of Southern cotton and regret that we didn't kill every individual south of the Mason_Dixon Line? 0 -
Most people don't know history. When I was a kid, Sherman and Mr. Peabody would take the Wayback Machine and visit some point in history to learn "the rest of the story".
Imagine going through life hating someone that you don't know, have never visited, and have no plans to. All you have to go on is what someone has told you. Seldom does anyone have the big picture. Most everyone has the wallet size snapshot they carry around their whole lives. Why do individuals limit themselves and keep their world tiny? Is life simpler and less frightening?
I sure wish I had a Wayback Machine.[;)]0 -
p3skyking, I agree with you that "Most people don't know history", but you lost me shortly after that. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you tried to say.
I don't claim to know a lot about history, but most of what I know is what I have been told or have read. Almost no one knows the "big picture" other than what they have been told or have read. This includes Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman. People who live history seldom have the "big picture". I have an uncle (had an uncle, now deceased) who survived the sinking of the USS Wasp. He didn't have the big picture of that moment in history. He didn't even hear the order to abandon ship. His version of the sinking of the USS Wasp was "I was taking a shower, I saw the flash and heard the explosion. Then I was in the water."
I've seen a few "historical sites" and I agree that it does enhance your knowledge and peaks your interest, but I don't agree that you have to have seen Bunker Hill (Breed's Hill) to understand the American Revolution, or Gettysburg to understand the War Between the States, or the Little Big Horn to understand what happened that day. We simply have to trust some of what we have been told or have read. Otherwise, we would have to start each day with a clean slate.
I lived in Spain for a couple of years, saw some of the museums, some of the Moorish architecture, art and statues, but I can't say it made me an expert on El Cid. I lived with Saudi Arabians for four years which didn't enhance my respect for Muslims or Arabs. I guess it did take a little of the surprise out of 9/ll though.
Most of my problem with Japan today is the fact that they don't tell the younger generation about World War Two. Part of that is intentional, part because the generation teaching now don't know about it because their parents and grandparents didn't tell them about it.
It's not just Japan. Germany and the United States do the same thing. Of course the United States has a more pure motive. It simply doesn't fit our political agenda.
I have two nieces who are school teachers. They both are pretty sure there was a World War Two, and they both know it was after World War One because two comes after one. Both were shocked when I told them we have had a war with Spain.
I see things differently. I think we need a lot more "telling" what has happened in the past, and a lot more reading of history before it is completely changed. When I was in elementary school Nathan Hale was quoted as saying "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my Country." These days if he is quoted at all, it is "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country."0 -
Jim,
The point I attempt to make is that a single source of imformation, especially a participant, is quite often clouded judgement.
Interesting that you should bring up the Spanish American War.
It was started by William Randolph Herest (Patty Herest's Grandfather). Even though Spain had ceeded to all US demands, his newspaper inflamed the country and war was demanded. A foolish position taken by people who knew nothing about Spain except what they read in his newspapers.
Watch the special features DVD that comes with Letters from Iwo Jima. The Japanese are learning their past and there is some shame, but also some pride. Many had no idea the US and Japan had fought each other. They do now.
My point was that what I see in all the Japanese bashers is the same thing I saw in a recently zapped poster. All cops are sons o'bitches, none are worth a damn, they all lie, cheat, and steal. Only an idiot would paint with such a broad brush. Times change and people change, but ignorance never changes.[:(]0 -
Actually, given how passionate a lot of folks feel about Pearl Harbor these six-plus decades gone by (myself included), ask yourself this:
Israel did the same thing to the Arabs in 1967 (sneak attacked 'em). Is it any wonder the Arabs are so all-fired p!$$#d off at Israel?
We at least had the benefit of seeing the Japanese get their balls handed to them in grand fashion, but even in victory a great many of us (once again, myself included) are rather spiteful towards Japan.
The Arabs, on the other hand, have nothing but defeat to chew on and reminisce about.
So I ask again - is it any wonder the Arabs won't coxist with Israel? We at least have the Pacific separting us from Japan... imagine if Japan were right next door to us. Our hatred would probably be many, many times worse.0 -
Zip, I can't find a source for ThreeWorldWars.com, but it reads a lot like some of Garner Ted Armstrong's stuff. It appears they (whoever they are) are very careful to make sure you only identify them as "ThreeWorldWars.com".
Their "mouse print" gives the disclaimer:
quote:Obligatory Disclaimer: The contents of this entire website, as well as all emails sent, are based upon the opinions of individual authors, unless otherwise noted.
The information on this website is not intended as advice on which to base life-changing decisions. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from our research. We encourage you to make your own decisions on how this information affects you personally, based upon your ongoing research and critical thinking.
Their disclaimer notwithstanding, they neglect to give an author's name, they don't mention who did the research and they don't "otherwise note".
In my opinion, ThreeWorldWars.com is a source, but not a very good one.0 -
good post
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Most people don't know history. When I was a kid, Sherman and Mr. Peabody would take the Wayback Machine and visit some point in history to learn "the rest of the story".
Imagine going through life hating someone that you don't know, have never visited, and have no plans to. All you have to go on is what someone has told you. Seldom does anyone have the big picture. Most everyone has the wallet size snapshot they carry around their whole lives. Why do individuals limit themselves and keep their world tiny? Is life simpler and less frightening?
I sure wish I had a Wayback Machine.[;)]0 -
Hi James - I'm no expert either, but I've read a lot on that particular subject.
That reference was just a quickie that I found that pretty much sums up what
was going on in '40-'41, before Pearl Harbor. Feel free to refute any or all of it
but I think you'll find it's pretty accurate.
"Most of my problem with Japan today is the fact that they don't tell the younger
generation about World War Two. Part of that is intentional, part because the
generation teaching now don't know about it because their parents and
grandparents didn't tell them about it."
Not that I have an answer for every comment made around here, but I do like
to comment on the obvious ones that I know a bit about (a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing).
As far as what you wrote - quoted above - you have to know something about the
oldest (seemingly) tenant of Asian philosophy, the role of 'face' and the complete
shame attached to losing it.
Today, matter of fact the CIA is releasing some hitherto secret documents that reveal
some of their illegal doings in the last few decades. I haven't read it yet but am not
surprised. Often 'we' like to get dirty laundry stuff off our chests and fess up about
not so nice national policies ... remember the small pox tests on the blacks years ago?
Asians don't work that way - you (nor I) will EVER see anything in the Japanese press
that reads, "Yes we did it! We murdered countless Chinese (and others) in our W.W.II
imperial conquests, along with countless rapes, the use of the Korean comfort girls,
massive doses of torture and execution combos in the Pacific and Manchuria, etc., etc., etc. Nope ... you ain't NEVER gonna see it ... EVER!
In that respect they are a CLOSED SOCIETY. It matters not what we want/think ...
that's the way it is/gonna be.
A lot of Americans have a HUGE problem with the fact that the rest of the world doesn't
think/act like us Americans and that must be a bad thing.
In Asia ... it just is.
[8D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Donld
Do the actions of Bloody Bill Anderson and the conditions at Andersonville cause you to forego buying clothes made of Southern cotton and regret that we didn't kill every individual south of the Mason_Dixon Line?
Dude You are wrongly assuming that I would be wearing a blue uniform in some past life!!! Not my family!!!
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Zipper:
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
Sorry Don, when I read someone state that WWII - in the Pacific - started because the US (and you should know, Britain also) cut off Japan's oil to save the poor Chinese, it's apparent to me, at least, you're reading from the Little Golden Book of WWII.
Sorry ... it's just a tad more complicated than that old propaganda line. You might want to read up on what actually was going on.[:D].
And State's Rights was the real reason for the Civil War.[xx(]
The Little Golden Book of WWII (which was outclassed by The Little Golden Book of Nuclear Fusion, BTW) states primary causes. The U.S. reaction to the Japanese territorial aspirations was the trigger that released Yamamato's folly.
Yes, at dawn we did sleep, and though people can find 1000's of nuances, our standing up for the Chines pushed Tojo over the edge.
A tad more complicated? Definitely it is, but root causes remain true.0 -
tobefree: LOL ... our family wore quite a few of those blue uniforms ... wore
them all over ... from our home state in Pennsylvania, all the way to Atlanta
and Savannah. From what they left us in diaries and letters, it wasn't so bad to
be on the winning side.[;)]
Don - to equate the US going into W.W.II to save the ravaged Chinese is as
silly as it would be to think we're going to leap right into Africa to stop
decades of genocide ... it hasn't happened, it ain't gonna happen. Truth is,
unless Africans have something we really need ... we turn a blind eye.
... it's called geopolitical policy - and it always works - or, is supposed to
work - to the benefit of the country that is using it
We were in China during the Boxer rebellion and later on their river with
our river boats not because we were trying to protect them ... uh, not
quite ... do some research, find out why we were there.
Like I said before, and I'll stick to it - with all due respect ... there are two
kinds of history ... one for the masses and the actual unrevised actual
history.
Someone mentioned the 1898 America's Manifest Destiny role in history.
Had nothing with helping our brown brothers get a leg up. Hawaii, ditto.
Nicaragua, ditto. Philippines insurrection, ditto. ... we've got a lot of history -
like everyone else, in that department.
[:D]0 -
The japanese infuriated Americans with their sneek attack on Pearl harbor.
My ex-father in law was a Navy WWII vet who saw action in the Pacific. He would have never owned a Japanese car and dispised the Japanese until the day he died.
My father was an Army WWII vet who saw action in Germany. He actually owned and preferred a Mercedes Benz.0 -
The Germans and japanese treated American prisoners differently - with a
couple of exceptions on the German side.
We had a neighbor Rankin Wheatly, Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9), Ret.
spent the entire war in a Japanese coal mine - fascinating stories - and
until his death he'd not buy anything Japanese, or even talk to Japanese/Japanese
Americans - one Japanese American family lived across the street - 2nd/3rd
generation, I think, and he ignored them - hated Japanese until his death ...
but we knew why.
... irony is, his niece sold his home to a Japanese family after RW's death!
[8D]0 -
I personally dont buy anything japanese knowingly if I can buy American.As for Pearl Harbour,I have been ther twice,one of the things I noticed was the japanese tourists there and their bad manners. 0 -
Man I sure like them japanese cars alot better than most of the american made cars... Seriously, they really make good cars, and cameras. And they are so far ahead of us culturally and technologically. Just to think, if we would have never nuked them, all the cool electronics that would have never been made...
I have to say, most of the stuff you see that says made in america was really made in china, with some parts made and then assembled in the US. Like seriously, where do you think the steel comes from for the american made car bodies and frames? China... And like have the little do-dads and accutraments that go into that american made car, was probably made in china too...0 -
quote:one of the things I noticed was the japanese tourists there and their bad manners.
Ever been to Disneyland on a hot August day? Mobs and mobs of them - few very
happy.
... one interesting thing about japanese tourists - some don't have a choice. Many
large Japanese companies INSIST their employees travel abroad every three or five
years (I forget). The company matches money they put into a vacation account.
Reasoning?
The firms believe that the employees traveling abroad will appreciate their jobs
more after seeing how the rest of the world treats it's employees.
I understand it works!
[:D]0 -
Pearl Harbor was not only a disgusting, infamous sneak attack. It also was a demonstration of the Jap culture and psyche. Those have not changed. Just look at the war criminals that are interred in the Yakusa shrine.
Also look at their treatment of POWs, the Rape of Nanking, etc, etc.
There is no such thing as a "beautiful" samuri sword, it is a symbol of a totalitarian, repressive imperial period in jap history. They were used by a "special" class to kill unarmed, innocent people.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Old Fool
There is no such thing as a "beautiful" samuri sword, it is a symbol of a totalitarian, repressive imperial period in jap history. They were used by a "special" class to kill unarmed, innocent people.
No doubt they also stood in their doorways and unsheathed them to scare away unarmed innocent Christian Missionaries.0 -
Ever read about the 1597 crucifixion of 26 Catholics - six European Franciscan missionaries, three Japanese Jesuits and 17 Japanese laymen including three young boys - in Nagasaki?
... it's a pretty interesting story.
[8D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by leeblackman
Man I sure like them japanese cars alot better than most of the american made cars... Seriously, they really make good cars, and cameras. And they are so far ahead of us culturally and technologically. Just to think, if we would have never nuked them, all the cool electronics that would have never been made...
I have to say, most of the stuff you see that says made in america was really made in china, with some parts made and then assembled in the US. Like seriously, where do you think the steel comes from for the american made car bodies and frames? China... And like have the little do-dads and accutraments that go into that american made car, was probably made in china too...
And just how many Nobel prizes have been won by Japs? Hint, it is not 1/50 of those won by Americans. The Japs are ok with non-high tech stuff like TVs, but they have never been competitive in truly high tech. Think about the F-22, landing on the moon, inventing microchips, sequencing DNA, and a very long list of other US inventions. The Japs have developed virtually no high tech, the simply copy the inventions of others.0 -
El Muerto - your post about Israel and it's sneak attack of 1967 is not what happened. The muslims, that is what they called themselves then not Arabs, said they were going to attack and wipe out Israel. The arab troops were headed to Israel. And when the Arab troops got close Israel attacked. That is called; intent, means, and proximity. Which equals self defence.
JamesRK - Did you know that Garner Ted Armstrong got Christain education from the JWs? It seems his faimly were members who broke away and started their own thing.
When we sent Japan the notice that they must leave China. We carfully worded it so that Japan would take it as Get out or Else! We knew(hoped) they would respond by attacking us. Our government wanted to get us into WW11. So how sneakie was the Japanese attack? The above was been made public decades ago.0
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