Remember Ruby Ridge
quote:Originally posted by swedesteel
Henry: I can't keep from asking...when you write "Remember Ruby Ridge"...what exactly are you asking us to remember? Somehow, I wonder how your answer to that question will "square" with the Marine Corps emblem in your signature, but I am open to your response. Thanks...Semper Fi, I am a former Marine.
What happened at Ruby Ridge is classic example of "libthink" at its very worst. (Of course, I'll grant that it is very questionable whether liberals possess the ability to think at all.)
No matter how noble the end purpose, no matter what the potential benefit to society as a whole might be, compromising the rights of individuals is always wrong, period.
I didn't put a lot of thought when I added "Remember Ruby Ridge" to my signature line. I believe I saw it in someone else's thought it would be a good thing to say, a catchy reminder that our government is corrupt at many levels and the Constitution has been trashed almost beyond recognition.
I see no conflict whatsoever between my service in the Corps and being ashamed of our country for what happened to Randy Weaver and his family.
Henry: I can't keep from asking...when you write "Remember Ruby Ridge"...what exactly are you asking us to remember? Somehow, I wonder how your answer to that question will "square" with the Marine Corps emblem in your signature, but I am open to your response. Thanks...Semper Fi, I am a former Marine.
What happened at Ruby Ridge is classic example of "libthink" at its very worst. (Of course, I'll grant that it is very questionable whether liberals possess the ability to think at all.)
No matter how noble the end purpose, no matter what the potential benefit to society as a whole might be, compromising the rights of individuals is always wrong, period.
I didn't put a lot of thought when I added "Remember Ruby Ridge" to my signature line. I believe I saw it in someone else's thought it would be a good thing to say, a catchy reminder that our government is corrupt at many levels and the Constitution has been trashed almost beyond recognition.
I see no conflict whatsoever between my service in the Corps and being ashamed of our country for what happened to Randy Weaver and his family.
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Koresh molesting underage girls is an unproved allegation, never proven, only inferred.
The feds killing 80+ American Citizens, including women and babies is a fact.
Those of us old enough, watched the slaughter live, on TV.
Who or what Koresh was is immaterial. Our government never gave him the chance to defend himself. They just murdered him, and the innocents that happened to be near him at the time.
And that is exactly what they did to Randy Weaver's Wife and Son.
If you try to divert attention from what really happened to some other thread about mexicans, you are doing a disservice to the rest of us.
Remember not to call upon us to defend you, when the jackbooted thugs kick in your doors, and black helicopters land more of them on your roof.
McViegh was a psycho, and got what he deserved.
Doug
* edited to correct format and spelling0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
McViegh was a psycho... I'll go out on a limb here and state that IMO, McVeigh was no psycho. I agree in principal with HenryO.
One can understand the anger towards the government he had...many here felt the same way during Waco and its aftermath. Our government killing innocent people, many children. All because of some alledged firearms infractions.
Patriot, NO. Psycho, NO.
Misguided and murdered innocent civilians and childred...absolutely.
Say what you want about McVeigh but he DID walk the walk.0 -
Just curious, dolfan - do you think he should have been executed ??
Doug0 -
Doug,
Yes. He did murder 168 innocents and injured hundreds more.
He took his punishment like a man...refusing to appeal his conviction.0 -
Marc1301, nobody can be wrong all the time. You are correct about Tim Mc Veigh. You are wrong about almost everything else.
For the sake of argument I'll assume that Vernon Wayne Howell AKA David Koresh was every bit the scumbag you say he was. I say to rescue his flock by murdering eighty-six men, women and children with death by fire was a little more than an over reaction. I also content that when you serve a warrant by climbing onto somebody's roof, breaking out a window and shooting into the dwelling does not give the appearance of honest warrant service.
I contend that if David Koresh was a child molester, as you allege, the children would be at least as well off if they were still alive. It is not the job of BATFE to rescue molested children. That is the job of the Sheriff or state and local police. The child molester allegations came up after the fact in an attempt to justify the mass murder.
This was not the first action of this type by the BATFE, formerly known as BATF. It was just the biggest and best known.
In June of 1971 BATF agents dressed as "hippies" with no identifying badges, emblems, or marking on their clothing went into the wrong house and held an eight year old child at gunpoint (shotgun) until they found out they were at the wrong address. They then went to the correct address and shot Ken Ballew in the head. They later found out Mister Ballew had violated no laws.
The BATFE has been on a downhill slide ever since.
In the case of Ruby Ridge, the warrant service started with killing Randy Weaver's dog and murdering his son, Sam, a fourteen year old child. This again doesn't give the appearance of honest warrant service.
There is nothing I can do about either of these incidents, but I for one am not willing to file it away under "old business" and forget about it.0 -
McVeigh got caught up in The Turner Diaries. If the bomb had detonated at 0300, he would have garnered a lot of support. As it was, innocents never make a good domestic target.
A fantastic PR exercise for ATF blew up in their face at Waco. Ruby Ridge was a SNAFU for the FBI. Throughout it all, Clinton and Reno slide by without much oversight.
As far as McVeigh's execution, you have to ask yourselves why he was the first Federal execution in a long, long time. Anyone know of another on the docket?0 -
Henry: I got "lost", never even knew you'd responded to my question until tonight! Sorry; wow, lots of commentary though.
Again, I was just curious...maybe playing a bit of "devils advocate".
Regardless of my "former Marine" status, governmental "abuse of power" scenarios(Ruby Ridge) and unconstitutional abuse of "RIGHTS" that are treated as "priviliges" are...a major concern to me.
I accept your response at face-value, wholly understand and don't think it a contradiction with your former service, as you say. In fact, considering myself a "Patriot" means, to me, standing against that kind of abuse of power and vicious assault on private property, let alone the taking of "life and liberty".
Semper Fi! Rick0 -
McVeigh was a stooge. 0 -
The American Rifleman, July 1971
GUN LAW ENFORCERS SHOOT SURPRISED CITIZEN, CLAIM SELF-DEFENSE
"They looked like hippies," says young wife whose husband defended her with a replica gun
By AMERICAN RIFLEMAN STAFF
While taking a bath in his first-floor apartment in a Washington, D. C., suburb on the night of June 7, NRA Life Member Kenyon F. Ballew, 27, heard a commotion in his home. He stepped out of the bathroom, nude, to find his scantily clad wife confronted by armed men who had crashed through the apartment door.
"Kenny, Kenny, they're breaking in, where's a gun?" the wife called out.
What ensued is the subject of somewhat differing accounts. Mrs. Saraluise Ballew tells one. Spokesman for the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Division of the IRS and local police tell others. Ballew can tell nothing. As this is written, he lies in the intensive care section of the Washington Sanitarium and Hospital critically wounded by a bullet in the head.
No matter what the outcome may be, Ballew can be certain of a sad niche in history. That night, he became the first American citizen shot down by enforcr4s of the 1968 Federal Gun Control Act.
Ballew, naked and dripping from his bath, armed himself with a replica of a .44 Walker Colt blackpowder cap-and-ball revolver of 1847 pattern. Confronting him was the vanguard of a raiding party numbering somewhere between 11 (ATFD version) and 24 (police version) armed enforcement officers.
Spokesmen for the law officers claimed Ballew fired first, getting off one shot that hit nobody. Between five (ATFD version) and seven (police version) shots were fired. Mrs. Ballew denied that her husband fired first. One spokesman said Ballew was hit by an ATFD bullet. Another said both groups were firing and that the actual shooter has not been determined. A third source said the police did not fire a shot.
The raiding party acted on information that Ballew possessed loaded or live grenades, which are illegal under Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act. The information, the ATFD said, came to Montgomery County police in Ballew's home area from "at least three sources," all unnamed. The ATFD said the local police then asked their assistance.
As it turned out, Ballew had four inert or empty grenades which apparently violated no law whatsoever. Nor did the young Washington newspaper pressroom worker, Boy Scout leader, and former Air Force military policeman have any record of crime conviction. The ATFD said he was arrested in 1970 on a Montgomery County police charge of carrying a concealed weapon, but that the charge was dropped without trial on a technicality.
A spokesman for the Montgomery County police made no reference to the 1970 charge but asserted after the raid tat Ballew had violated "several laws" requiring safety precautions in the storage of tracer ammunition and bulk powder. The AFTD, however, said Ballew had only two pounds of blackpowder and two pounds of shotgun powder--well below the storage limit--plus large quantities of cartridges and shotgun shells for his eight firearms using fixed ammunition.
Mrs. Ballew, mother of two small children by a previous marriage, gave the following account while at her husband's bedside in the hospital:
Ballew is a black-powder and shotgun shooter with a collector-shooter enthusiasm for firearms. His collection included a dummy practice grenade given him by a friendly National Guardsman when he was 15.
On the night of the raid, Mrs. Ballew heard a pounding or knocking on an outside door of their apartment and shouts of "Open up! Open up!" The rest of the words were indistinguishable in the din.
The door crashed open, and men entered. The first was bearded, wearing a yellow sweatshirt and carrying a handgun. Behind him came a man in a striped shirt. At that point she saw no uniformed officers, and did not notice any badges.
Ballew emerged, dripping from his bath, and picked up the replica cap-and-ball. He stepped into the living room of his home.
"Both guns went off at the same time," her husband's and another.
Ballew slumped to the floor, bleeding from the head.
"Get the police--murder!" Mrs. Ballew screamed.
"We are the police," one of the raiding party replied.
Clad only in panties, which she had put on after taking a bath just before her husband, she was "shoved out" into the hall and not allowed near her husband.
Finally handed a dress, she was handcuffed and placed in a police car.
She was shown a search warrant for "occupant"--no name given--of the Ballew apartment on a charge of possessing hand grenades.
Taken to the police station, she was held for several hours before being allowed to go to her critically wounded husband in the hospital. En route, a uniformed officer told her that there apparently had been some error made, but "these things do happen."
"If they had come in wearing uniforms," she said, "there wouldn't have been any shooting. I was sure someone was breaking in when I saw those two men dressed like hippies."
The official ATFD version is as follows:
Search warrant in hand, the investigators and police "knocked on the door and identified themselves through the closed door as Federal investigators." They "yelled twice", so loudly that others in the apartment neighborhood heard them.
Then "the Montgomery County police chose to break the door down."
All who entered wore badges clipped to their suit pockets.
Ballew met them "with a handgun in his right hand."
The officers were trying to convince him not to fire when he did fire one shot.
Both ATFD investigators and police fired back.
Prior to raiding the Ballew apartment, the officers hammered on the door of the apartment above with a search warrant also directed only to the "occupant." In this instance, the occupant proved to be 10-year-old Miriam Murphy, who was baby-sitting with a baby. The child said her mother told her not to open the door for anyone, but she finally heard someone shouting "police" and decided to take a chance and open the door. The officers searched the apartment, found nothing and left. Mrs. Josephine R. Murphy, Miriam's mother, said she returned to find the floor strewn with clothes and a big dent in the door where the officers had beat on it.
The search warrant return was signed by ATFD Special Investigator Marcus J. Davis. Also participating in the raids were ATFD Special Investigators Louis E. Pace, L. D. Callans, Donald R. Sloan and possibly others. An ATFD spokesman said three or four investigators were involved. A police spokesman said "a dozen."
Maryland's top Federal prosecutor, U. S. District Attorney George Beall, a brother of U. S. Senator J. Glenn Beall (Md.), praised the ATFD investigators. "From our point of view," Beall was quoted, "they did nothing extraordinary, nothing reckless, nothing culpable, nothing wrong." He added that their performance was "a letter-perfect execution of their search warrants with the exception of the unfortunate incident that occurred."
Afterward, the investigators found "One baseball-type plastic-body hand grenade, one canister grenade, one hand grenade canister, one military hand grenade fragmentation type." The return did not indicate whether they were inert or live, but an ATFD spolesman said they contained no powder or bursting charges.
They also found "remnants of sawed-off barrels and stocks"--but no firearms of illegal length or with parts sawed off.
In addition, they found a large quantity of firearms and ammunition, and most of the arms were "fully loaded." Among these were 13 boxes of 20-ga. shotshells, 14 of 12-ga., and one of 16-ga. magnum, and many M1 carbine, .30-'06, and other cartridges.
Ballew's collection consisted of 14 black-powder arms and eight cartridge arms: nine cap-and-ball replica revolvers, three flintlock replica pistols, two cap-and-ball rifles, one cal. .22 semi-automatic pistol, an M1 carbine, two .22 rifles, a 20-ga. pump, and a military rifle with bayonet.
The Montgomery County police, at last report, were holding all of Ballew's firearms. A police spokesman admitted that they were taken without a search warrant but explained that they had to be held because Ballew was subject to a Maryland State charge of "aggravated assault with intent to commit murder."0 -
Law enforcement. By whatever name they come under [Police, FBI, ATF&E, US Marshals, CIA, numerous swat teams etc.] Way too many innocent citizens have been Murdered and the cases white washed by elected officials.[:(!] A full-scale attack by a tank and helicopters in Waco against American citizens was so horrific as to defy reason.[A Tank...a tank used in War[xx(]
Remember the little Cuban boy.. This happen on Janet Reno's watch also.0 -
Ballew....a name from the distant past...when some of us finally understood where we as a nation were headed.
There are many more cases...dead, or rotting in jail for their beliefs..the belief that we 'live in a free nation'...silly men.....0 -
A seller on GB has had him at his shop to do book signings. I bought 2 of them user (Ton80) and he and Randy are buddies. Remember Ruby Ridge, Remember Waco??
PJ0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Right behind you on that one Henry. What a mess. It just confirms the doubts I have about our government and our rights. [V]
Second the motion. Ruby Ridge is a prime example of why we can't allow the gov't to take our guns. Don't believe me, ask the ghosts of 6 million Jews.0 -
This is my last post here about this,.......and the reason that I hesitate to even comment about such things[xx(]
First off all I said was I saw differences between Ruby Ridge, and Waco! I also said that I felt Waco could have been handled differently,.......I agree, they should have taken him on a trip to town, and if he was armed, and pulled a gun, shot him. The other point was that neither one of these people were squeeky clean folks. I just don't get the mindset of making these people into some kind of "folk" heroes.
The post about coming here for help when "they" come to get me,.......just plain stupid[:o)]
I have been a gun owner since I was 12 years old, and will be as long as I breathe. IF the day ever comes that someone shows up at my home to take away my weapons, that will be the last day of my life, as I will not surrender them. This stuff becomes too emotional, and folks lose track that these were not honest, normal, totally law abiding people that attracted all of this attention, which ended in their demise. Sure, they probably shouldn't have been killed, but when you position yourself for trouble, you should expect to find it at some point!! I am very boring as far as having any history of problems, so I doubt that I will ever be of interest to any law enforcement agency, unless the day comes that we move fully to Socialism, and they come to collect all of the guns.0 -
quote:Originally posted by whompuss
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Right behind you on that one Henry. What a mess. It just confirms the doubts I have about our government and our rights. [V]
Second the motion. Ruby Ridge is a prime example of why we can't allow the gov't to take our guns. Don't believe me, ask the ghosts of 6 million Jews.
i think katrina is a better example.0 -
If I were a name-calling man, I'd call you an "imbecile".
But I', not.
Doug0 -
Some time ago, a man walked about proclaiming he was God. Others purported that he had performed miracles. Was he a whacko too?
Careful who you call whacko.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Henry0Reilly
What happened at Ruby Ridge is classic example of "libthink" at its very worst. (Of course, I'll grant that it is very questionable whether liberals possess the ability to think at all.)
Would that be the "libthink" of George HW Bush? Because he was the one sitting in the White House when Ruby Ridge took place.0 -
Downsize the ATF.
Perhaps we should start referring to them "The American Gestapo".
I still fail to see there relevance. Even the liberals in New York are going after honest gun dealers in other states. If the ATF were truly doing there job, this wouldn't happen and "mistakes" like Ruby Ridge would not happen either.
BTW, what the heck does the ATF do with alcohol or tobacco? Do they audit bars like they audit FFL gunsmiths? No. Does the ATF audit Casey's General Stores for there cigarette sales? No. Why? Because there are no federal license for smokes and beer. Then why is there a federal license to sell firearms?
Does the constitution protect beer and cigarettes? No. Then what is the purpose of the ATF? What does the ATF do that LOCAL law enforcement cannot do? What does the ATF do that the FBI does not do?
They are a misguided law enforcement agency that is broke beyond repair. They have no true focus or purpose.
DOwnsize the ATF.0 -
quote:"The American Gestapo".
Absolutely. Jackbooted Government Thugs.0
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