Stupid (to me anyways) Religion question.
I get bored on the boat at times and my mind wanders.
First off, I was raised Christian but have basically abandoned all faith. But I still understand and remember most of the things I was taught.
Ok here is my question,
Imagine that a nice woman has two sons. She loves them equally even through their faults. One son is a model son, Christian, good person all around. The other son is a black sheep, non-Christian and does very bad things. For the sake of the story, say he murdered someone.
The good son gets to go to heaven, while the bad son because of murder goes to hell.
The woman being a good Christian woman gets to go to heaven.
Now in heaven everyone is happy? How is this woman supposed to be happy if she knows one of her sons is in hell? If her memory of her life, friends and family is erased upon entering heaven, it doesn't truly sound like a heaven to me.
Pick it apart, it was just a random thought I had. But you can see that most people will have loved ones not joining them in heaven if you go by who is allowed in and who goes to hell. How could everyone in heaven be happy if they know people in hell?
First off, I was raised Christian but have basically abandoned all faith. But I still understand and remember most of the things I was taught.
Ok here is my question,
Imagine that a nice woman has two sons. She loves them equally even through their faults. One son is a model son, Christian, good person all around. The other son is a black sheep, non-Christian and does very bad things. For the sake of the story, say he murdered someone.
The good son gets to go to heaven, while the bad son because of murder goes to hell.
The woman being a good Christian woman gets to go to heaven.
Now in heaven everyone is happy? How is this woman supposed to be happy if she knows one of her sons is in hell? If her memory of her life, friends and family is erased upon entering heaven, it doesn't truly sound like a heaven to me.
Pick it apart, it was just a random thought I had. But you can see that most people will have loved ones not joining them in heaven if you go by who is allowed in and who goes to hell. How could everyone in heaven be happy if they know people in hell?
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quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
the bible says that we will be able to look back upon our loved ones and wish they had accepted the lord .. but the beauty of heaven will be so overwhelming that we will accept the punishment that our father has bestowed upon those that have not recieved him. its a personal choice, the reason you were born, called free moral continence.
The bible is a book written by man. It was not written by God, it is not the Word of God. It may have divine influence, but it is not, in and of itself, divine.
That being said, I do believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Heaven and Hell. I do not feel that Catholisism, nor any other organized or unorganized religion, for that part, has it right. Just the fact that people (who follow religions that were formed by people) start wars with each other over religious reasons is proof enough that no religion has true worship nailed down yet.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
the bible says that we will be able to look back upon our loved ones and wish they had accepted the lord .. but the beauty of heaven will be so overwhelming that we will accept the punishment that our father has bestowed upon those that have not recieved him. its a personal choice, the reason you were born, called free moral continence.
The bible is a book written by man. It was not written by God, it is not the Word of God. It may have divine influence, but it is not, in and of itself, divine.
That being said, I do believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Heaven and Hell. I do not feel that Catholisism, nor any other organized or unorganized religion, for that part, has it right. Just the fact that people (who follow religions that were formed by people) start wars with each other over religious reasons is proof enough that no religion has true worship nailed down yet.
Religions are made my man, to suit man's desires, and people do go to war in the name in these religions. Jesus is not a religion, he is a person, and he is God, and he offers forgiveness of sin and freedom from these religions. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through his son, Jesus Christ.
Read John 8 to see what Jesus says about the rest of this matter.
http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm4/bbnmedia/tabid/690/Default.aspx0 -
quote:Originally posted by RUGERGUNZ
First off, I was raised Christian but have basically abandoned all faith. But I still understand and remember most of the things I was taught.
It's not about what you're taught, it's about what you believe.0 -
People must have an answer and will accept the answer that best fits their thinking. Lotta of good questions and thinking posted here but it won't do any good as the true answers are out of our reach. Unless you want to believe what another mere mortal tells you or what some ancient book (that has been revised numerous times for numerous reasons by numerous people) tells you to believe.
I have a problem believing, for just one example, in that in the Old testament God is an angry, vengful, violent and murderous God. But suddenly in the New testament God/Jesus is all loving, kind, gentle and forgiving. To me that looks like God did an extreme makeover and that doesn't sound like something an already all-knowing, all-powerful perfect God would do.
Lotta things in the Bible or any religious book don't make sense to me.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
People must have an answer and will accept the answer that best fits their thinking. Lotta of good questions and thinking posted here but it won't do any good as the true answers are out of our reach. Unless you want to believe what another mere mortal tells you or what some ancient book (that has been revised numerous times for numerous reasons by numerous people) tells you to believe.
I have a problem believing, for just one example, in that in the Old testament God is an angry, vengful, violent and murderous God. But suddenly in the New testament God/Jesus is all loving, kind, gentle and forgiving. To me that looks like God did an extreme makeover and that doesn't sound like something an already all-knowing, all-powerful perfect God would do.
Lotta things in the Bible or any religious book don't make sense to me.
It can be confusing, especially the Old testament, even for Christians, but if you read through the whole Bible, it does makes sense in context. In the old testament God created the law, so that people could see that they are sinners, where his people had to make sacrifices to pay for their sins. They did this believing that one day God would send Jesus, the final sacrifice, to fully pay for their sins, as the animals only covered them temporarily. Then in the New testament Jesus died and fully paid for our sins. Now, instead of looking forward for someone to come and pay for our sins, like they did back then, we look back and have to accept Jesus as our sin sacrifice. Back then, God did seem angry, and indeed he was, because his people would continually sin and turn from him, just as we do now. But he understands that we are not perfect and that we will sin and mess up, and he promises that he will forgive us if we confess and ask him to. The proof of his love despite our sin is in Jesus, coming to earth and dying for our sins. Though we turn from him, he will always love us. He gives the example in Hebrews of a father who chastens his son. God says that even as a father would punish his son for doing something wrong, God punishes his people for sinning, but if we are truly his children and we truly repent and forsake our sins he loves to forgive us. If you receive no chastening from God over your sin then you are not a true believer, because he chastens all of his children when they sin.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:5-100 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I have a problem believing, for just one example, in that in the Old testament God is an angry, vengful, violent and murderous God. But suddenly in the New testament God/Jesus is all loving, kind, gentle and forgiving. To me that looks like God did an extreme makeover and that doesn't sound like something an already all-knowing, all-powerful perfect God would do.
And it is not so much that he hates us, but he hates sin, and cannot have anything to do with sin. Bible says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is the same God from Genesis to Revelation.0 -
if you do good, you get good. god is an imaginary friend for grownups who cant deal with being alone for more than five minutes. 0 -
Your question stems from the mistaken notion that heaven is a Human centered place, that it's about us, and for us. It isn't. Sorry, get over it. 0 -
First off I want to say that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. The best counterfit is the one that looks as close to the real thing as possible. The devil loves it when someone goes around claiming to be a Christian but their lifestyle doesn't match what they claim to be. That is why when a lot of people think of "Christians", they think, those hypocrites, I live as good a life as they do, look how they live, they are no better than me. And you are right, I am no better than anyone. As far as the subject of " How could God allow a murderer into Heaven". Murder is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. I am not saying that a Christian couldn't commit murder. What I am saying is that someone with the hate in his heart required to commit murder is probably not a true Christian. I am not talking about killing in the service of your country or in defense of your family, I'm talking about willfull murder. The devil loves it when some lunatic commits murder or bombs an abortion clinic in the name of Jesus, because that makes Christianity as a whole look hypocritical. Jesus said "Love your enemies" and he lived it out. He prayed for those that were spitting on Him and mocking Him and killing Him. God is perfect. He hates sin. No sin can enter Heaven. All men, except Jesus Christ, have sinned. If God hates sin, then he cannot love sin at the same time. If you have ever lied, stolen, or done anything contrary to God's laws, you have sinned. The Bible says that if you hate someone that you have commited murder in your heart. But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Going to Heaven is not something you earn, it is a gift that no one deserves. Jesus earned it for us. God loves the murderer just as much as he loves someone who doesn't drink, cuss, or beat his wife. Those who except Jesus Christ and repent of their sins are covered by Jesus's righteousness. When God looks at the Christian, he doesn't see our filthy sinfullness, He sees the perfect blood of his son covering our sin. 0 -
quote:It's not about what you're taught, it's about what you believe.
Ain't that the truth? I raised up a conservative Christian (Mark) and ended up with a Wiccan/pagan/agnostic/liberal/anarchist.0 -
Tomahawk: How old are you?
Have you been to war?
Have you seen what war does to children?
Have you done anything to help these children?
The results of war and actions of war are directly related to your God. " He see all, He knows all" BS!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
Considering that the Christian religion is not about actions (in many cases, again there are sects that put emphasis on works instead of faith) but is, rather, about faith, your question has a fallacy.
Murder does not send someone to Hell.
Being good does not send someone to Heaven.
To enter Heaven, one must accept Jesus as the Messiah. He must do this with more than words -- it must be in his heart, mind, body and soul. God can peer into your heart and know your true intentions.
If the evil son, who has murdered someone (or many someones), accepts Jesus as the Messiah on his deathbed, and it is true in his heart (and not just something he is saying in his last moments), then he will be welcomed in the Kingdom of God.
If the good son, who has murdered no one, does not accept Jesus as the Messiah, he is still sinful (because all men sin), all sins are equally weighted, and he will not be welcomed in the Kingdom of God.
There are two routes to the Kingdom of God (Heaven):
1. You must lead a perfectly good life, of which in the history of mankind, only One had performed this feat; or
2. You must accept Christ as the Messiah.
Sorry to take your thread off-track, but that's the right answer to the question posed.0 -
I am simply amazed at the number of people in here that seem to think they know what this "God" wants, thinks or does. All you know is what some ancient people wrote in a book about what they thought and how they could use religion to control each other.
Please tell me just how you know what this God thinks and wants other than what someone has told you or that you read in some religious manuscript?
Enquireing minds want to know..[}:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
I am simply amazed at the number of people in here that seem to think they know what this "God" wants, thinks or does. All you know is what some ancient people wrote in a book about what they thought and how they could use religion to control each other.
Please tell me just how you know what this God thinks and wants other than what someone has told you or that you read in some religious manuscript?
Enquireing minds want to know..[}:)]
I believe by faith. It takes just as much faith to not believe in God as it does to believe in God. I can't prove that God exists, but nobody can prove God doesn't exist either. The day we die is when we will find out.0 -
Well first we know (by faith) that there are no tears in heaven. And that then "we will know, as we are known". The second son did not go to hell because he was a murderer.
It's an interesting question and discussion.0 -
So you folks think that all Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc are going to hell?????
What utter BS[V]
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quote:Originally posted by Old Fool
So you folks think that all Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc are going to hell?????
What utter BS[V]
Everyone has a chance at salvation. EVERYONE.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Old Fool
So you folks think that all Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc are going to hell?????
What utter BS[V]
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
-1 John 5:11-130 -
Jesus said in John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the father but by me. So by His own admission, Jesus is the only way to heaven, or He is lying and he is no way. I believe He was telling the truth. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
I am simply amazed at the number of people in here that seem to think they know what this "God" wants, thinks or does. All you know is what some ancient people wrote in a book about what they thought and how they could use religion to control each other.
Please tell me just how you know what this God thinks and wants other than what someone has told you or that you read in some religious manuscript?
Enquireing minds want to know..[}:)]
OK Classic, here's the answer again. The Holy Ghost! That is the Holy Spirit. He is present, in fact the Spirit of the Living Christ comes and dwells within those who receive Him.
I know you don't like that answer, and can't believe it. It's pretty hard for me to believe it's actually happening, and I'm daily living it! [:D]
I'll use this analogy again; suppose that you drank a bottle of vodka, would you experience and changes? You know in the way you think, or feel, or act? But truth be known these changes that you would experience are only because of what you read in a book right? Or just something that you were told? There would be no real effect on you, just imaginary?
Now heres my problem, suppose that I have never taken a drink in my life, and would not try it, but I only stand and tell you that your imagining things, you are deceived, or worse that you're lieing. I choose to not experience what you are telling me about, in fact I don't even want to hear it! So does my unwillingness to know mean then that the booze really does have no effect on you? Did my opinion really alter reality? Because after all, and once again, If I don't know about something, than you can't either. If I haven't experienced it, than it ain't there!
My friend we are not dealing with beliefs, He's real.
But there still remains three possibilities here:
1. I'm lieing to you
2. I'm just insane
or
3. I'm telling you the truth
Please know that this is said only with respect for you Larry. I almost detest posting about this here again. But you are always welcome though to e mail me or call me on the phone.0 -
A lot of people are quite anixous to explain to me what God thinks, says, wants, expects of me, about the past and future with God, etc. And when I question why horrible, evil and unfair things happen to people I am always given the answer about "orginal sin" and how all people are quilty of that "orginal sin" and we deserve to be punished by God.
Course there are two things wrong with the logic behind this "orginal sin" thing. One is that everyone living today was not present at the "orginal sinning". So why should we be punished for that? Punishing someone for something that was done by long dead people is just like punishing me, just because I am white, for the evils that slave holders did more than a hundred years ago. Or punishsing you because your grandfather murdered someone. It is not fair by any standard; Godly or manly standard.
And if anyone argues that such punishment is fair because we are all sinners, what about newborn babies? Surely no one could look at a newborn baby and declare that baby a "sinner"? Why do so many babies have to suffer? Suffer not just horrible actions done by people, but horrible birth defects, disease, dying during childbirth, starving, horrible accidents, etc? God knows all and controls all so he knows about the suffering of innocent babies and in fact since he controls all he is an active participant in that suffering. Does God really consider that treatment of babies fair because of "orginal sin?"
It is very difficult for me to accept the claim that God is all knowing and all perfect because of the above.0 -
Dang, It just occured to me that is going to be a hell of a bunch of disapointed people around the world. The Buddists, the Islamic people, Christians(and variations therof). Somebody's gotta be wrong. I just love it when someone tells me that I'm not supposed think for myself. Can you say "brainwash"?[:)] 0 -
[:Classic095
Advanced Member
USA
14309 Posts
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 11:10:19 AM
I am simply amazed at the number of people in here that seem to think they know what this "God" wants, thinks or does. All you know is what some ancient people wrote in a book about what they thought and how they could use religion to control each other.
Please tell me just how you know what this God thinks and wants other than what someone has told you or that you read in some religious manuscript?
I'm amazed at the amount of people that don't believe in God that That post . Its like trap shooters saying trap is better then skeet, when everyone knows skeet will put more game in your freezer.[:D][:D][:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
A lot of people are quite anixous to explain to me what God thinks, says, wants, expects of me, about the past and future with God, etc. And when I question why horrible, evil and unfair things happen to people I am always given the answer about "orginal sin" and how all people are quilty of that "orginal sin" and we deserve to be punished by God.
Course there are two things wrong with the logic behind this "orginal sin" thing. One is that everyone living today was not present at the "orginal sinning". So why should we be punished for that? Punishing someone for something that was done by long dead people is just like punishing me, just because I am white, for the evils that slave holders did more than a hundred years ago. Or punishsing you because your grandfather murdered someone. It is not fair by any standard; Godly or manly standard.
And if anyone argues that such punishment is fair because we are all sinners, what about newborn babies? Surely no one could look at a newborn baby and declare that baby a "sinner"? Why do so many babies have to suffer? Suffer not just horrible actions done by people, but horrible birth defects, disease, dying during childbirth, starving, horrible accidents, etc? God knows all and controls all so he knows about the suffering of innocent babies and in fact since he controls all he is an active participant in that suffering. Does God really consider that treatment of babies fair because of "orginal sin?"
It is very difficult for me to accept the claim that God is all knowing and all perfect because of the above.
See? Nobody wants to touch this question about innocent babies suffering and God not only knowing about it, but knowing about it before it happens. In addition, if God is really all knowing and all powerful he would put a stop to such unjust, needless suffering of innocent babies.
Now is someone going to step up and explain to me how tiny babies are somehow "guilty?" Or how we morals are just not able to comprrehend why God letting those innocent babies suffer somehow is fair in God's plan and we mortal are too stupid to grasp it?0 -
TRFOX:
God is not liable for the bad that happens . It just allows it to happen. Cause he is powerless to stop it. If every thing is planned ahead of time (predestination) then John Wayne Gasey was in the big plan. Every thing in the world according to some was in a big plan by this god. Evidently this plan included all the evil and murder, and child rapists and pestulance and starvation.. Some plan if ya ask me.
Oh yes in being ask to prove non existance of something. simple.. The lack of any evidence of something actually existing is the proof that it doesn exist so no proof of non existance is needed because of the lack of any evidence of its existance.. Again the onus of proof is upon the one that is claiming the existance of something. Not the other way around.
Put a rock in one hand and none in the other, which has the rock? and which hand has the non existant one?? Proove the hand without a rock in it has one in it..[:0]0 -
Tr, I'm no bible scholar, but it seems to me that the answer to the question you pose is Satan. He has dominion over this earth until Jesus returns. And he's gonna make it a whole lot worse than what we've seen so far. It's gonna make bad stuff of the 20th century look like a birthday party.
Consider this unbelievers:
If we believers are right, what did we gain? If we are wrong, what did we lose?
If you unbelievers are right, what did you gain? If you are wrong....not pleasant...0 -
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
Tr, I'm no bible scholar, but it seems to me that the answer to the question you pose is Satan. He has dominion over this earth until Jesus returns. And he's gonna make it a whole lot worse than what we've seen so far. It's gonna make bad stuff of the 20th century look like a birthday party.
Consider this unbelievers:
If we believers are right, what did we gain? If we are wrong, what did we lose?
If you unbelievers are right, what did you gain? If you are wrong....not pleasant...
Well since God is all powful, why did he let this unpleasent situation happen? Maybe people like me deserve it, but not innocent tiny babies. Can't an all powerful God at least save the babies from horrible torture and sexual abuse from their own parents?Something is wrong here.0 -
Yea, it's troubling. I find myself wishing God would use more lightning bolts all the time. But, he gave a free will to decide and some people choose to do evil things. We will never understand some things in this life. We think we are so smart with the advances we've made, (which is a sign that things are about to head down the toilet) but our knowledge and understanding is infinitesimal when compared to God. So, we can not understand some things. 0 -
Don't worry, she will see her son in the afterlife, even if he was a bad boy. 0
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