Stupid (to me anyways) Religion question.
I get bored on the boat at times and my mind wanders.
First off, I was raised Christian but have basically abandoned all faith. But I still understand and remember most of the things I was taught.
Ok here is my question,
Imagine that a nice woman has two sons. She loves them equally even through their faults. One son is a model son, Christian, good person all around. The other son is a black sheep, non-Christian and does very bad things. For the sake of the story, say he murdered someone.
The good son gets to go to heaven, while the bad son because of murder goes to hell.
The woman being a good Christian woman gets to go to heaven.
Now in heaven everyone is happy? How is this woman supposed to be happy if she knows one of her sons is in hell? If her memory of her life, friends and family is erased upon entering heaven, it doesn't truly sound like a heaven to me.
Pick it apart, it was just a random thought I had. But you can see that most people will have loved ones not joining them in heaven if you go by who is allowed in and who goes to hell. How could everyone in heaven be happy if they know people in hell?
First off, I was raised Christian but have basically abandoned all faith. But I still understand and remember most of the things I was taught.
Ok here is my question,
Imagine that a nice woman has two sons. She loves them equally even through their faults. One son is a model son, Christian, good person all around. The other son is a black sheep, non-Christian and does very bad things. For the sake of the story, say he murdered someone.
The good son gets to go to heaven, while the bad son because of murder goes to hell.
The woman being a good Christian woman gets to go to heaven.
Now in heaven everyone is happy? How is this woman supposed to be happy if she knows one of her sons is in hell? If her memory of her life, friends and family is erased upon entering heaven, it doesn't truly sound like a heaven to me.
Pick it apart, it was just a random thought I had. But you can see that most people will have loved ones not joining them in heaven if you go by who is allowed in and who goes to hell. How could everyone in heaven be happy if they know people in hell?
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I agree with you 100%! 0 -
Christians accept that their God creates people that rape and torture infants and toddlers for months and years until they eventually kill them.
Knowing that this is standard behavior from God, how hard would it be to accept that he is frying your son for eternity in hell?
Faith transcends rational thought. Remember, we cannot know the mind of Christ or God, and thus cannot rationalize their seemingly bizarre actions. It is for us to accept, not to understand.0 -
Wise man says: In Hell and Heaven, time does not exist. In theory, the woman and both her children would arrive at the gates of heaven at the same time, even though all three died at different times and one of them had a stint in hell to work off. However, this whole argument does depend on the notion that Heaven and Hell are separate places and distinct from Earth itself; I don't buy that premise and so the whole argument is moot. 0 -
no religious question is stupid. but i'll answer like this. there is not a sin around that cannot be forgiven as long as you have confessed with you mouth [repent] and believe in your heart [jesus] you shall be saved. there is only 1 unpardonable sin, that is the sin against the holy spirit, [saying and believing there is no god]. that is why it is sad that some people will not listen and here the gospel.[V] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
no religious question is stupid. but i'll answer like this. there is not a sin around that cannot be forgiven as long as you have confessed with you mouth [repent] and believe in your heart [jesus] you shall be saved. there is only 1 unpardonable sin, that is the sin against the holy spirit, [saying and believing there is no god]. that is why it is sad that some people will not listen and here the gospel.[V]
So lets say this bad son did the unpardonable sin. How could his mother be happy in heaven??0 -
What if you had a life before this one and this is your second or third chance.
You don't have a rememberence of your last life so why would it be weird to not have a rememberence of this mess on Earth once you get to Heaven?0 -
I would hope not to have rememberance of this life in Heaven. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
no religious question is stupid. but i'll answer like this. there is not a sin around that cannot be forgiven as long as you have confessed with you mouth [repent] and believe in your heart [jesus] you shall be saved. there is only 1 unpardonable sin, that is the sin against the holy spirit, [saying and believing there is no god]. that is why it is sad that some people will not listen and here the gospel.[V]
Saying and beliveing that there is no God is not an unpardonable sin...if that was true then saying you can go back to jesus at anytime would be dumb...and your saying that once you dont believe in God even for a little bit you will go straight to hell...then what is the point of repenting??ehh...0 -
the bible says that we will be able to look back upon our loved ones and wish they had accepted the lord .. but the beauty of heaven will be so overwhelming that we will accept the punishment that our father has bestowed upon those that have not recieved him. its a personal choice, the reason you were born, called free moral continence. 0 -
Everyone chooses their eternal destiny. I would imagine that the knowledge of that fact would put things into perspective. We will also have a much greater understanding of all things in heaven. We will not be limited to human reaoning and thinking. I believe that there are going to be a whole lot of issues that suddenly make sense...in a way that was not possible to comprehend as a human being alive on earth... 0 -
Gunbroker forum member: "Which is better, AK 47 or M-16?"
Baptist minister: "What the heck are you asking me for?"0 -
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
the bible says that we will be able to look back upon our loved ones and wish they had accepted the lord .. but the beauty of heaven will be so overwhelming that we will accept the punishment that our father has bestowed upon those that have not recieved him. its a personal choice, the reason you were born, called free moral continence.
Why must an all loving and forgiving God punish those that have not recieved him?
What if you were never introduced to God. Such as an individual living in the Jungle who could not have knowledge of God. Does he go to hell for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or does he get a free pass?0 -
quote:Originally posted by RUGERGUNZ
Now in heaven everyone is happy? How is this woman supposed to be happy if she knows one of her sons is in hell? If her memory of her life, friends and family is erased upon entering heaven, it doesn't truly sound like a heaven to me.
Rule#1.Know one knows
Rule#2.See Rule #1
But to be honest, Given the idea. This would mean you don't have full control of choices of others actions in life. IE Having a child that would turn out to be a killer.0 -
look i type real slow so listen. god sees all and knows all, i'm sure he would take such into conideration. but ther are 2 deaths. one from this world and one at the second judgement. ecc help me i can't type fast enough. you have been told... i told you... choose your way 0 -
Rugergunz...
Here's another one for you....
Same situation, BUT the christian son commits the murder while the black sheep lives a good moral life, does no harm to anyone, is good, kind and loving...
Now, as stated in the bible and on here many many times, the christians go to heaven, the sinners to hell unless you ..oh cripes we all know how its said, but imagine that huh...the good person to hell and the murderer to heaven....kind of a kick in the teeth huh?.
Christians seem to think they have a pass into heaven no matter what the sin as long as they believe. A murdering believer is forgiven but a moral non believer isnt???. Non christians are comdemned to hell even though they are morally better than some christians . twisted logic if ya ask me..0 -
i didn't ask you 0 -
quote:Originally posted by BlackRoses
Rugergunz...
Here's another one for you....
Same situation, BUT the christian son commits the murder while the black sheep lives a good moral life, does no harm to anyone, is good, kind and loving...
Now, as stated in the bible and on here many many times, the christians go to heaven, the sinners to hell unless you ..oh cripes we all know how its said, but imagine that huh...the good person to hell and the murderer to heaven....kind of a kick in the teeth huh?.
Christians seem to think they have a pass into heaven no matter what the sin as long as they believe. A murdering believer is forgiven but a moral non believer isnt???. Non christians are comdemned to hell even though they are morally better than some christians . twisted logic if ya ask me..
+1[:I]
I think the basic godly instinct's between right and wrong doings say it all.0 -
quote:Originally posted by BlackRoses
Rugergunz...
Here's another one for you....
Same situation, BUT the christian son commits the murder while the black sheep lives a good moral life, does no harm to anyone, is good, kind and loving...
Now, as stated in the bible and on here many many times, the christians go to heaven, the sinners to hell unless you ..oh cripes we all know how its said, but imagine that huh...the good person to hell and the murderer to heaven....kind of a kick in the teeth huh?.
Christians seem to think they have a pass into heaven no matter what the sin as long as they believe. A murdering believer is forgiven but a moral non believer isnt???. Non christians are comdemned to hell even though they are morally better than some christians . twisted logic if ya ask me..
Couldnt have said it better myself.0 -
to live a moral life you have to have listened to that inner feeling of right v wrong within all of us. the holy spirit 0 -
quote:Originally posted by RUGERGUNZ
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
the bible says that we will be able to look back upon our loved ones and wish they had accepted the lord .. but the beauty of heaven will be so overwhelming that we will accept the punishment that our father has bestowed upon those that have not recieved him. its a personal choice, the reason you were born, called free moral continence.
Why must an all loving and forgiving God punish those that have not recieved him?
What if you were never introduced to God. Such as an individual living in the Jungle who could not have knowledge of God. Does he go to hell for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or does he get a free pass?
God says that He reveals Himself through His creation...and He does.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
to live a moral life you have to have listened to that inner feeling of right v wrong within all of us. the holy spirit
The Holy Spirit is NOT in an un-Believer, and I know some un-Believers with very high morals...0 -
Dont you know by now you cant use reasoning and religion in the same story,,,the very idea of faith discounts all deduction or reasoning,,,,thats why they call it faith,,you cant think for yourself,,,you just have to believe in the preacher and that little book written by other men 0 -
but those unbelievers are almost there if they are listening to the holy spirit, the next step is easy[;)] 0 -
RugerGunz...brother it sounds like your soul searching..when your out on that deep blue behind the wheel of your boat bend down on your knees and ask God your questions..he will answer..be receptive to the way he answers you..listen with a open mind and heart..if forgiveness is what you seek ask the Lord for that he is all seeing and hears your tiny voice..crying out to him on the water..reach deep in side you and accept that the Lord will listen and help you make your way..heaven will await all who believe and have faith..I feel your reaching for something..you have a good memory of your life in church..give it another chance as an adult.maybe things will seem clearer for you now..believe me, God will answer your prayers..I'm living proof..[;)]..Randy 0 -
Heaven and hell are not immediate. When we know physical death, our spirit must wait with all the others until the Great Tribulation and the Apocalypse have been fulfilled, ushering in the Millenium - the thousand years of peace under the rule of Jesus Christ.
During the Milennium the ones who had no chance to know Jesus (pygmies in Africa, etc [;)]), as well as unbelievers, deniers and the other "black sheep" will receive the chance to learn. At the end of the thousand years satan will be released a final time; he and those who choose to follow him will be cast into the Pit while the rest will then enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.0 -
All tales of religion are told by man, remember that.
Open your mind a bit, give it thirty minutes, and watch ...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5216975979627863972&q=zeitgeist&total=1018&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
Edited* Better video link0 -
Wow - what good stuff.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by RUGERGUNZ
Imagine that a nice woman has two sons. She loves them equally even through their faults. One son is a model son, Christian, good person all around. The other son is a black sheep, non-Christian and does very bad things. For the sake of the story, say he murdered someone.
The good son gets to go to heaven, while the bad son because of murder goes to hell.
The woman being a good Christian woman gets to go to heaven.
Now in heaven everyone is happy? How is this woman supposed to be happy if she knows one of her sons is in hell? If her memory of her life, friends and family is erased upon entering heaven, it doesn't truly sound like a heaven to me.
First off, I would say that if the woman loves both her sons, despite their faults, then she's walked at least a few steps in God's shoes, so if the pain of having a single loved one in Hell is supposed to ruin the experience in Heaven, can you even begin to imagine the burden God carries on His shoulders when uncounted millions if not billions of His children are there as well?
From what I understand, since God is forgiving, Hell is a temporary situation if one finds true repentance for one's sins. There are no unpardonable sins, and as unthinkable as it may be to our mortal minds, I would say that with true repentance, even the likes of Hitler and Pol Pot could find their way into Heaven (unlikely, but possible)
How is she supposed to be happy? I would suppose she would find happiness the same way she did in life when her evil son was being evil.0 -
Though at first it would greatly bother the woman who's son went to hell, she should realize that he made a choice just as she did, and he chose to reject God, so he only got what he deserved. And then in heaven God will wipe away all tears, and heaven will be so great that we will probably forgot about the things of earth, especially since we will be there forever.
So supposing the Christian son does murder someone. He will still go to heaven because once you are saved you can never lose your salvation. He ought to be convicted and he ought to do the right thing by confessing it to God and man, and suffer whatever consequences man should bring against him. He will pay for it at the judgment if he does not confess it, by not getting as many rewards in heaven.
Now suppose the unsaved kid lives a good life, and dies. He will still die and go to hell, because he did not believe and have his sins forgiven. Problem is there are a lot of people who are in this spot, thinking their good works will get them to heaven. But if that were the case, what good works are required to get into heaven, and where can you find this information, because it is not in the Bible. Bible says it is not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.
John 3 will cover it all, we are condemned to hell because we are sinners, and only Jesus can pay for our sins and free us from hell.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. -John 3:14-20
Yes, there are many people who have not heard about Jesus, and many that will not, but there is the evidence of creation and the evidence of a conscience, and God's existence is clearly seen, as described in Romans 1. Just as people who go to heaven will have different degrees of rewards, people in hell wil receive different degrees of punishment, according to their sins. God has promised, that if you are really searching for him he will reveal himself to you, even as he did to me. I never went to church, did not grow up in a Christian family, but I got my hands on a picture Bible when I was young and from reading that I was convinced of the truth, and as I searched for God, he made things happen so that I did find him.
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. - Jeremiah 29:110 -
Here's a question for those of you who believe faith is a con job:
When they disprove a theory, do you lose all faith in science?
Why is it that they can propose new theories time and again and conduct so-called clinical studies that contradict old supposedly scientific studies again and again and again and no one ever wonders if maybe, just maybe, science is fraught with just as many human failings and frailty as any other human construct?
Lacking faith in God is one thing, but replacing it with the disgustingly conceited notion that you know best because science says so only means you have replaced a love of God and your fellow man with an all-consuming lust for yourself and no one else.0
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