Torture
Okay, I've had it will all this namby-pamby talk around the country about the horrors of turture. Waterboarding, which is a pretty mild option yet proven effective, is now seen as the New Evil.
Horse manure! I say if you have a known enemy and suspect he has info vital in wartime let's go for it. This is what he signed up for. There are some limits, of course, but give me a hand-crank field telephone, some wire and alligator clips and lets get these SOBs chirpin' like birds. They are the enemy! I'll turn the crank.
What say you?
Horse manure! I say if you have a known enemy and suspect he has info vital in wartime let's go for it. This is what he signed up for. There are some limits, of course, but give me a hand-crank field telephone, some wire and alligator clips and lets get these SOBs chirpin' like birds. They are the enemy! I'll turn the crank.
What say you?
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Reading about the fuss raised about using torture on political prisoners.
In my opinion we are not playing paddy cake when it comes to our country's security. I say do whatever is necessary to protect us. The holier than thou saying it is wrong would change their minds if the results of not using any means necessary had results close to home and family.
In times of war, which is what the current situation is fast becoming, I say no holds barred. I read about earlier leaders approach was to kill the enemies familes, kids,dogs,mothers and anyone else who is or could become an enemy.
What is your view?
Sage 10 -
If cookies and a hug won't work, then by all means. 0 -
It saves lives so carry on.[:D][}:)] 0 -
Has anyone change their opinion on this topic since the last reply yesterday?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=277039&SearchTerms=torture0 -
I say to remember that red is positive and black is negative. 0 -
the term "political prisoners" is way over used, in war there are no innocents, and i don't believe in taking prisoners unless it suits you 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kristov
Has anyone change their opinion on this topic since the last reply yesterday?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=277039&SearchTerms=torture
I'm still undecided.0 -
In former wars, terrorists were hanged or shot. Being ununiformed you automatically forfeited your life.
If we can get any information out of them so much the better. Their reward for supplying information should be their choice of noose or bullet otherwise it's the noose. Giving information doesn't mitigate the fact they are murderers and cutthroats.
Warehousing them as POWs is a mistake.They are not POWs or enemy combatants. They are terrorists.0 -
I think Leftenant Morant covered this under Rule 303. Agree with his interpretation of the rule. 0 -
It's really easy to say you support torture because you assume that the person being tortured is (A) guilty, (B) knows something of use, and (C) said information can be acted upon in a timely fashion.
All of the above attributes a degree of omniscience to the torturers that, as human beings, they simply do not possess.
There is also the degree and variety of torture to take into consideration. At Abu Ghraib people had their legs and fingers broken to say nothing of rape. If rape is used as a form of torture and torture is so useful, would you be so blase' if your wife or daughter was raped to extract information and they knew nothing? How does one make up for a case of mistaken identity or wrongful detention if torture is employed?
Historically speaking, if torture is such an awesomely effective tool, then why is it that Nazi Germany, for all of the torture that she employed, never fully stamped out the insurgencies in the territories she conquered nor uncovered the traitors in her midst?
Mind you, there is a difference between interrogating someone and torturing someone. Interrogation is an art that very infrequently leaves any lasting marks.
Torture, on the other hand, leaves scars both physcial and psychological that last for decades.
And if we are there to establish a free and open and friendly Iraq, the last way to do it is by ripping out Iraqi fingernails and hooking their testicles up to jumper cables, no matter how much we think they know.0 -
the kill americans, and our allies
the have declared war on us.
any thing goes in my book, thats keeps us safe.
ANYTHING! I hope thats perfectly clear0 -
In battle, you destroy the enemy however and wherever you can. After he is taken prisoner, he is to be humanely treated. We have lived by these rules for the most part for our country's entire existance. I see no reason to change now. It is probably the only way I can remember who the good guys are.
[xx(][:(!]0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
In battle, you destroy the enemy however and wherever you can. After he is taken prisoner, he is to be humanely treated. We have lived by these rules for the most part for our country's entire existance.
[xx(][:(!]
Its too bad that this simply isn't true....0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
In battle, you destroy the enemy however and wherever you can. After he is taken prisoner, he is to be humanely treated. We have lived by these rules for the most part for our country's entire existance.
[xx(][:(!]
Its too bad that this simply isn't true....
When has it been official policy to torture prisoners in the United States? Any prisoners? Think hard before you make foolish statements.0 -
Ever hear of Elmira prison? 0 -
and I guess cutting someone head off with a dull blade is what?
If we shoot them outright, we dont have a problem.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
Ever hear of Elmira prison?
A Yankee POW camp for captured Confederates.
In the months the site was used as a camp, 12,123 Confederate soldiers were incarcerated; of these, 2,963 died during their stay from a combination of malnutrition, prolonged exposure to brutal winter weather, and disease directly attributable to the dismal sanitary conditions on Foster's Pond and lack of medical care.
Your point?0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
A Yankee POW camp for captured Confederates.
In the months the site was used as a camp, 12,123 Confederate soldiers were incarcerated; of these, 2,963 died during their stay from a combination of malnutrition, prolonged exposure to brutal winter weather, and disease directly attributable to the dismal sanitary conditions on Foster's Pond and lack of medical care.
Your point?
On a side note, I'd bet money you never heard of Elmira before now.....but that isn't the point
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
When has it been official policy to torture prisoners in the United States? Any prisoners?
So let me get this straight......Deliberate starvation isn't torture but pouring water on a guy's face is?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
So let me get this straight......Deliberate starvation isn't torture but pouring water on a guy's face is?
Do you understand the term "Official Policy"? Did Honest Abe authorize the starvation? Were the rations available to be given and were instead withheld?
People at the time were mad as hell about the Marshall plan, and the aid to Germany and Japan after the war. Our humane treatment of these former enemies paid us huge dividends during the Cold War. The Krauts stood with us against the Warsaw Pact and the Jappers stood with us against the Soviet Union and will stand with us against China. All because we held firm to our ideals about treatment of beaten foes (and would keep them from being consumed by Communism). WWII would have never been if the dirty French had not busted the Germans ass so much at the Treaty of Versaille.
Get a little historical prespective and you can see the big picture.0 -
I say, rip their finger nails out with pliers! OK, that's kinda harsh, but some form of torture should be available if it will protect American lives. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
So let me get this straight......Deliberate starvation isn't torture but pouring water on a guy's face is?
Do you understand the term "Official Policy"? Did Honest Abe authorize the starvation? Were the rations available to be given and were instead withheld?
It wasn't just Elmira....You can add Point Lookout, Camp Douglas, etc....
Did "Honest Abe" (HA) "authorize the starvation"? No one knows that but Abe and God, I reckon. For him not to know, however, would indicate him being as retarded as Confederate propoganda made him out to be.
Were rations available? Damn right they were....I don't think I've ever read of a Yankee army starving in the field (unless under siege)
quote:Originally posted by p3skykingOriginally posted by Rack Ops
People at the time were mad as hell about the Marshall plan, and the aid to Germany and Japan after the war. Our humane treatment of these former enemies paid us huge dividends during the Cold War. The Krauts stood with us against the Warsaw Pact and the Jappers stood with us against the Soviet Union and will stand with us against China. All because we held firm to our ideals about treatment of beaten foes (and would keep them from being consumed by Communism). WWII would have never been if the dirty French had not busted the Germans ass so much at the Treaty of Versaille.
Get a little historical prespective and you can see the big picture.
The Marshall Plan? How are you connecting that to this conversation? I wasn't aware of us discussing a reconstruction plan...
If you'd like to relate to World War II, I suggest you consult Lewis (Chesty) Puller's memoirs......Specifically the sections pertaining to bayonetting sick Japanese soldiers who collapsed along the Marines's line of advance0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
So let me get this straight......Deliberate starvation isn't torture but pouring water on a guy's face is?
Do you understand the term "Official Policy"? Did Honest Abe authorize the starvation? Were the rations available to be given and were instead withheld?
It wasn't just Elmira....You can add Point Lookout, Camp Douglas, etc....
Did "Honest Abe" (HA) "authorize the starvation"? No one knows that but Abe and God, I reckon. For him not to know, however, would indicate him being as retarded as Confederate propoganda made him out to be.
Were rations available? Damn right they were....I don't think I've ever read of a Yankee army starving in the field (unless under siege)
quote:Originally posted by p3skykingOriginally posted by Rack Ops
People at the time were mad as hell about the Marshall plan, and the aid to Germany and Japan after the war. Our humane treatment of these former enemies paid us huge dividends during the Cold War. The Krauts stood with us against the Warsaw Pact and the Jappers stood with us against the Soviet Union and will stand with us against China. All because we held firm to our ideals about treatment of beaten foes (and would keep them from being consumed by Communism). WWII would have never been if the dirty French had not busted the Germans ass so much at the Treaty of Versaille.
Get a little historical prespective and you can see the big picture.
The Marshall Plan? How are you connecting that to this conversation? I wasn't aware of us discussing a reconstruction plan...
If you'd like to relate to World War II, I suggest you consult Lewis (Chesty) Puller's memoirs......Specifically the sections pertaining to bayonetting sick Japanese soldiers who collapsed along the Marines's line of advance
Not saying I buy everything you have written but........
So after everything is said and done, you feel it was wrong for the Yankee troops to mistreat their Southern prisoners?
Checkmate!0 -
the problem with the debate about "torture" is that everyone has a different definition of what constitutes torture.
i would say that in this debate its very important that american distingushes between american citizens detained for domestic crimes and foreign nationals detained for national security or war issues.
they should be treated differently. in times of war or great national security issues then the rules change. its simply about saving possibly millions of lives.
from what i have heard america has waterboarded 2 prisoners out of over 15,000 detained in the war on terror.
i dont even consider waterboarding torture based on what i have heard about it.
the technique has been reserved for two men that we know to be very bad men. it saved innocent lives.
if one day you wake up and decide to kill thousands of innocent american women and children then be prepared to deal with the pain and anguish that comes with your capture. otherwise, bow down and prepare to meet your virgins.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Civil Rights
the problem with the debate about "torture" is that everyone has a different definition of what constitutes torture.
i would say that in this debate its very important that american distingushes between american citizens detained for domestic crimes and foreign nationals detained for national security or war issues.
they should be treated differently. in times of war or great national security issues then the rules change. its simply about saving possibly millions of lives.
from what i have heard america has waterboarded 2 prisoners out of over 15,000 detained in the war on terror.
i dont even consider waterboarding torture based on what i have heard about it.
the technique has been reserved for two men that we know to be very bad men. it saved innocent lives.
if one day you wake up and decide to kill thousands of innocent american women and children then be prepared to deal with the pain and anguish that comes with your capture. otherwise, bow down and prepare to meet your virgins.
As probably the only person on this forum who HAS BEEN WATERBOARDED, now hear this; It is torture. I would actually enjoy waterboarding the individuals on here who have voice support for torturing prisoners. Especially the "god fearing" ones. Only two creatures on this planet derive pleasure from torturing others, cats and men. Usually, both are pussies. [:(!]0 -
If they have info that will save just one american life...... I say hang them from their testicles until they talk.
These people have demonstrated that they deserve no leniency by cutting off the heads of innocent people and constantly and deliberately blowing up children, women and other non-combatants.
Militant Islamic terrorists are a cancer on the butt of humanity and should be destroyed in the quickest way possible.0 -
quote:Originally posted by divecop
I say to remember that red is positive and black is negative.
I would be more into the alternating current, 3 phase type of power. Being in the Instrumentation/Industrial process controlls field, I have me some ideas on just how I would operate it too.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
If they have info that will save just one american life...... I say hang them from their testicles until they talk.
These people have demonstrated that they deserve no leniency by cutting off the heads of innocent people and constantly and deliberately blowing up children, women and other non-combatants.
Militant Islamic terrorists are a cancer on the butt of humanity and should be destroyed in the quickest way possible.
Lefty, I completely agree with you. In battle, utterly annihilate them in the most brutal fashion. Desecrate the corpses with pig blood and throw the bodies in the town well. Make the enemy fear the sound of your boots. It seems like we do exactly the opposite.0 -
JUST DO IT! DONT TALK ABOUT IT! dam it! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Not saying I buy everything you have written but........
So after everything is said and done, you feel it was wrong for the Yankee troops to mistreat their Southern prisoners?
Checkmate!
Checkmate? How exactly is that checkmate?
Its only "checkmate" if you place deliberate starvation and exposure on an equal footing with waterboarding.....Its not even in the same league
So tell me, what exactly aren't you "buying"? Is it the Puller reference? I don't have my copy of his book with me at this time (its out on loan), but I did find this passage:
"It was only twenty miles by air, but
it seemed like hundreds on the rough
trail. The C.O. kept the pace fast
and the men were constantly wet from
rain or sweat. The few enemy they
found were diseased and crippled
wretches who were too weak to pull
themselves off the trail. The
Marines bayoneted them all, not
wasting any bullets. The C.O. wrote
later in his after action report:
"The pig-sticking was fine."77
It can scarcely be argued that the aforementioned
incidents reflected any great concern for morality.
Horrible as they might be, however, these incidents did not
occur in the Vietnam War, but on Cape Gloucester, New Guinea,
during World War II. The American leader in both cases was
Lewis B. (Chesty) Puller, winner of five Navy Crosses and a
future Lieutenant General"0 -
quote:I say do whatever is necessary to protect us. The holier than thou saying it is wrong would change their minds if the results of not using any means necessary had results close to home and family.
The danger in that is that you become what you oppose. Not the best outcome. Taking the higher moral road is almost always the better route.0
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