can this be shipped to a c&r ffl.
i just bought this rifle and were trying to figure out if he can ship it to me under my c&r ffl
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=71157684
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=71157684
0
-
..I'd say no. Even though it's a surplus action, it's no longer in original military configuration. 0 -
but under atf rules if the gun is over 50 years old it is c^r eligible. and the only part of the gun that the atf considers a firearm is the receiver it should be able to get shipped to a c&r ffl. 0 -
That would be a definite NO GO. But nice rifle!! 0 -
...Jeez....now I have to drag out the books. You're right, but somewhere, the "original military config." comes into play. Maybe that's not even a C&R issue. 0 -
No. 0 -
If what you are saying is true, then a Mosin Nagant 91/30 with one of those black synthetic stocks is a non C&R item?
Bottom of the page
http://www.southernohiogun.com/mn.htm0 -
bigtire-yes. Ask to have an original stock installed and sent with the other one if you want. Then it is eligible.
Definite no-no on that rifle HK-nice one tho'0 -
..Reading the regs usually leaves me more confused. It appears that the "original military configuration" applies to importation. This being one of those gray areas that's been discussed before, I'd go on the side of caution, and still say "no". 0 -
ANY GUN OVER 50 YEARS OLD IS C&R ELIGIBLE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT REMAINS IN ORIGINAL CONDITION.
Further research indicates that ATF may only consider unmodified military rifles as C&R.0 -
thank you someone finally gets my point. the gun itself is over fifty years old it should be c&r.
quote:Originally posted by SaxonPig
ANY GUN OVER 50 YEARS OLD IS C&R ELIGIBLE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT REMAINS IN ORIGINAL CONDITION.
This original condition business is one of the biggest misconceptions surrounding C&R status. The 1909 Mauser in the auction is a C&R qualified gun.
Period.0 -
Shipped/received a few just like that.
The receiver is the "firearm" - no problem shipping to you with your C&R
Military config?? I've not heard about that requirement ever with C&R
What about a 1920 .22LR -- not a C&R??
I'm amazed at how many "No's" you've received. This type of rifle is shipped to C&R holders all the time0 -
No, but nice rifle 0 -
so was i. i would like to have the seller send the gun to me so i dont have to pay the extra 20.00 to my dealer but i have to make a trip there anyway to ship a pistol so i might just go that rout. i have a couple of days before i need to send out payment i think i'll do a little research. i suppose i could just ask the batf but last time i talked to them i ended up even more confused.
quote:Originally posted by fundaddy
Shipped/received a few just like that.
The receiver is the "firearm" - no problem shipping to you with your C&R
Military config?? I've not heard about that requirement ever with C&R
What about a 1920 .22LR -- not a C&R??
I'm amazed at how many "No's" you've received. This type of rifle is shipped to C&R holders all the time0 -
Orignal military configuration I think is the key. 0 -
EOD Guy is probably the best informed poster here regarding BATF regs. Drop him an e-mail. 0 -
IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE GUN IS IN ORIGINAL CONDITION. IT IS IMMATERIAL. IF THE GUN'S RECEIVER IS 50 YEARS OLD IT QUALIFIES AS C&R REGARDLESS OF ANY MODIFICATIONS.
Further research indicates that ATF may only consider unmodified military rifles as C&R.0 -
The "original military configuration" status comes into play on military weapons that are less than 50 years old but have curio status because of (for instance) historic importance - like the Soviet SKS rifles. 0 -
I think the trick will be convincing that there IS actually such a thing as a C&R.
I have one and find that its relatively useless so far... Unless I want guns shipped to my home address... Where my wife lives!!! [:D]
My understanding that anything mfg 50 years ago or mor... or... is on the BATF list specifically is ok to ship to a C&R holder. Check your state laws though... In MD for instance a C&R don't mean squat when it comes to "Controlled Firearms"... read handguns. They have to go through a FFL so the proper paperwork can be submitted to the State Police and "Not Rejected".0 -
Seems to me that the French MAS-36's that came in to the country several years ago that were converted to .308 and safeties installed were not sold as C&R's because of the conversion although the 36's in 7.5 French were ??? 0 -
LORD people go read the books before giving advice,,,,,ANY,,ANY,,ANY,,firearm over 50 yrs old is C&R no matter how it has been modified,,that only applies to guns under 50yrs old that are listed C&R,,
quote:SaxonPig Posted - 05/09/2007 : 3:24:27 PM
IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE GUN IS IN ORIGINAL CONDITION. IT IS IMMATERIAL. IF THE GUN'S RECEIVER IS 50 YEARS OLD IT QUALIFIES AS C&R REGARDLESS OF ANY MODIFICATIONS
I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS MYTH ABOUT MODIFIED GUNS NOT BEING C&R GOT STARTED BUT IT IS INCORRECT.
AGAIN, PERIOD.
Saxon is 100% correct,,
go look at AIM or SOG or any of the other ones,,they all sell mosin nagants ,03 springfields ,1917 enfields or eddystones that have been sporterized or changed in some way and all of them ship C&R,look at Classic Arms they chrome 100's of 91/30's ,,thats not original,do you think they could stay in business very long if this was wrong..0 -
IMMATERIAL???????=DON'T MATTER NONE 0 -
The 50 year rule doesn't apply because BATF has stated in several cases (not just importation) that a military firearm that is not in original configuration does not fall under C&R status because "They are not of special interest to collectors." That is a key requirement that must be met before any of the three methods of determining C&R status can be applied. You have to read the whole definition of "curios or relics", not just the parts that you use to justify your position.
BATF is the one who determines the "special interest to collectors" and "original configuration". About the only way around that would be for a curator of a museum to state that the individual firearm is of museum interest.0 -
Oh crap, back the truck up. Apparently the ATF DOES only recognize military rifles in original condition as C&R.
In typical federal bureaucracy fashion the info contradicts itself and the bottom line makes no sense at all. Aren't we told that the receiver is the firearm? Well, not in this case, buddy boy!
Seems to me that some big distributors are selling military surplus guns in sporterized condition as C&R eligible. Either they know something I don't or they are in violation of the regs.
ATF has recognized only complete,
assembled firearms as curios or relics.
ATF's classification of surplus military
firearms as curios or relics has extended
only to those firearms in their original
military configuration.
Frames or receivers of curios or relics
are not generally recognized as curios
or relics by ATF since they are not of
special interest or value as collectors'
items. Specifically, they do not meet the
definition of curio or relic in 27 CFR
478.11 as firearms of special interest to
collectors by reason of a quality other
than is ordinarily associated with sport-
ing firearms or offensive or defensive
weapons.0 -
i decided to play it safe and just have it sent to the local dealer. maybe he'll cut me a deal if i have him transfer the other two guns i'm bidding on. 0 -
good call! 0 -
Not to argue but I called the BATF Little Rock office today,,here is what they gave me,,,,,,
What is a Curio or Relic, ala Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) part 178, section 178.11
Curios or Relics: Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of
the following categories:
(a) Firearms that were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
as long as it is over 50yrs old it is C&R by rule #1,,,yes military weapons under 50yrs old on the C&R list must be original,,,like the Yugo SKS's all over the market,,,but old rifles like a 03 Springfields can be changed because they now fall under rule #1 over 50yrs old,,,,if you do not believe me call yourself ,,its easy to get your local office number of of the internet0 -
quote:Originally posted by sharpshooter039
Not to argue but I called the BATF Little Rock office today,,here is what they gave me,,,,,,
What is a Curio or Relic, ala Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) part 178, section 178.11
Curios or Relics: Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of
the following categories:
(a) Firearms that were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
as long as it is over 50yrs old it is C&R by rule #1,,,yes military weapons under 50yrs old on the C&R list must be original,,,like the Yugo SKS's all over the market,,,but old rifles like a 03 Springfields can be changed because they now fall under rule #1 over 50yrs old,,,,if you do not believe me call yourself ,,its easy to get your local office number of of the internet
The BATF office in Little Rock may say so, but the people who count, BATF HQ, does not. They have repeatedly said that military firearms not in their original configuration are not of special interest to collectors and so are not C&R, regardless of age.
The only opinion that has any legal basis is a written opinion from BATF in Washington. I have at least two letters that state that stripped receivers and military firearms not in their original configuration are not of special interest to collectors and so cannot be C&R.
This argument has been going on for years and I doubt that those who have formed opinions on the matter will be changing their minds soon. The best that be hoped for is that we agree to disagree.0 -
quote:The best that be hoped for is that we agree to disagree.
AND no one learns that you are correct the hard way.0 -
well then they better shut down SOG because here is two on there web site,notice whats in bold black,,has the stocks changed,its not original,,,every major distributor like SOG and AIM have them on their web site,,,pick up a new shotgun news,,it is full of them,,,you are correct in the fact you can not buy just the reciever on a C&R ,,it has to be a complete firearm,but it can be sporterized if over 50,, every major seller in the USA cannot be breaking the law,,and advertising it,,,the feds would have a field day,,,
Jungle Carbine Sporter .303 British Cal.
Enfield #5 jungle carbine, fitted in black sporter stock.
Perfect, lightwieght hunting gun.
RETAIL: $459.00
#SLG-JC5SPT
CALIFORNIA-OK
C&R $259.95
Russian 91/30 Sporter Rifle 7.62x54 Cal.
Russian Mosin Nagant Md. 91/30 Rifles, in very good plus condition, fitted into new, synthetic, black sporter stocks. Perfect, powerful hunting rifle.
RETAIL: $329.00
#SLG-MN9130SPT
CALIFORNIA-OK
C&R $129.950 -
I cut and pasted two paragraphs from the ATF site that do seem to support EODGuy's contention. As I read it (and perhaps I am missing some context), military rifles must be in original condition to qualify as C&R despite the fact that this is in direct conflict with criterion #1 on the site stating that ANY firearm over 50 years old is qualified.. I think that's stupid, but remember we are talking about the ATF, here.
SOG isn't alone in selling altered military rifles as C&R, and like I said, either they know something I don't or they are in violation.
You want something that should be relatively simple to be completely FUBAR? Let the federal government have a hand in it.0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
33 comments