Ethics question.. No gun related..
I know where a 1972 or 73 Toyota Land Cruiser long wheel base with a six-cylinder H engine. All original, Some body rust and a little damage. All glass except for the rear hatch is intact.
In 1991 the family that owned it moved to somewhere in Northern, Ohio. It had not been touched since. So it has sat for the past 17 years. I have so far contacted the DMV and the WV State Police and neither can get contact information on the owner whom had it registered in WV. All I can get is, it is titled to and last registered to such and such at the address where it now sits. Contacted the Ohio DMV and they were unable to get any contact information on the owner whom it is titled to either.
Now the ethics question kicks in. Not being the type that would steal anything, from anyone, for any reason.
Could or would it be considered abandoned property.
If someone were go load it up and haul it home would that be considered stealing.
I would love to have it to restore and get it running again. And have thought about it many of times. But something in the back of my mind tells me to leave it where it is and let it rust in peace.
I will be passing by the place tomorrow and will get some photos of it.
In 1991 the family that owned it moved to somewhere in Northern, Ohio. It had not been touched since. So it has sat for the past 17 years. I have so far contacted the DMV and the WV State Police and neither can get contact information on the owner whom had it registered in WV. All I can get is, it is titled to and last registered to such and such at the address where it now sits. Contacted the Ohio DMV and they were unable to get any contact information on the owner whom it is titled to either.
Now the ethics question kicks in. Not being the type that would steal anything, from anyone, for any reason.
Could or would it be considered abandoned property.
If someone were go load it up and haul it home would that be considered stealing.
I would love to have it to restore and get it running again. And have thought about it many of times. But something in the back of my mind tells me to leave it where it is and let it rust in peace.
I will be passing by the place tomorrow and will get some photos of it.
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Yes it would be stealing. Just because its not registered does not mean someone does not own it.
My suggestion would be to do more work to find the owner, then you would be in a postition to make some sort of deal to acquire the vehicle.
What sort of area is it located in? If its on public land, you might contact the local police to see if can be towed as abandoned.
Then the police could start proceedures to contact the owner to see if he wants it.0 -
i'm not familiar with the laws concerning abandoned property, i imaging the line is a little grey here. i would just try to contact the owner somehow. and maybe consult a lawyer if you can't get any help from the DMV or state police about the laws... but you might be SOL here... 0 -
Well, the big question is where is it located. If its located on private property, I would contact whoever owns the property and ask them about it - they might know more about it. They might let you take it.
If its on public land - for 17 years - it is abandoned, no question. However, depedning on your state it might become the property of the state. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about the matter:
quote:Property is generally deemed to have been abandoned if it is found in a place where the true owner likely intended to leave it, but is in such a condition that it is apparent that the true owner has no intention of returning to claim the item. Abandoned property generally becomes the property of whoever should find it and take possession of it first, although some states have enacted statutes under which certain kinds of abandoned property - usually cars and wrecked ships and aircraft - become the property of the state.0 -
The legalities might be fuzzy, but the ethics of the issue aren't. Not because there's a hard-and-fast moral rule about the status of abandoned property, but because you've already answered your own question: "something in the back of my mind tells me to leave it where it is and let it rust in peace." That "something" is your conscience, and, no matter what anyone says, the police included, until your own conscience is satisfied you will have no peace of mind if you take the car.
I would follow the other advice given, to start proceedings to have the car declared legally abandoned, or to contact whoever owns the property the car sits on -- something that leads to you being able to take possession of it with a clear conscience. If in the end that doesn't happen, chalk it up to "not meant to be" and be content to know you're an honest person. No material possession is worth having to doubt your own integrity.0 -
I have alway lived by a simple rule, if it is not mine, I don't want it around.... 0 -
We handle situations like this by doing a title search. If the owner cannot be found and the vehicle is not reported stolen, the state can issue a new title.
A Justice of the Peace can handle the legal forms. It helps if the owner of the property it is sitting on will sell it to you. Then a bill of sale can be notarized and submitted to the DMV at the time you request a title search.
Been there, done that.0 -
I would say contact the property owner.
If the property owner and the car owner are not the same its the propety owners right to give you the car if he wants to. After 17 years title or not its his car.
The car has an owner, wheather its the title holder or the land owner, the car has an owner and to take it would be stealing.
Tracking the property owner will be easy.[:)]and allot more fruitfull than trying to track the car owner.0 -
Depends on the state the vehicle is in at the present time. In PA if the vehicle is on private property the owner of the property can contact local or State Police and request the abandonded vehicle be removed by a salvor. The salvor can obtain a Salvage Certificate, and dispose of the vehicle, sometimes selling parts from the vehicle or in some cases selling the complete vehicle. Depending on what the current regulations are the buyer may be able to get the Salvage Cert. converted to a valid Title. I recall some info from a couple of years ago were PA was not allowing abandoned to be converted to a valid title. 0 -
quote:We handle situations like this by doing a title search. If the owner cannot be found and the vehicle is not reported stolen, the state can issue a new title.
A Justice of the Peace can handle the legal forms. It helps if the owner of the property it is sitting on will sell it to you. Then a bill of sale can be notarized and submitted to the DMV at the time you request a title search.
That's the way it works in KY. I saw a nice 72 VW Transporter sitting in the back of a mechanics yard and stopped to ask about it. Said the owner had bought it in back about 15 years prior with the motor running bad. He fixed it (adjusted the valves) and the owner wouldn't pay him, so he kept it until he would pay. Never came back, and the mechanic didn't know where he currently lived, so the VW just sat there. He sold it to me for the cost of fixing the engine 15 years prior. To get a new title issued to me, I had to pay for an ad in the "state newspaper" (in KY that was the Louisville Courier Journal) for two weeks giving the VIN number and stating that if not claimed, it would be considered abandoned property. Never heard a thing, and I drove the van home. So...it can be done legally if you make an effort to locate the previous owners. Check with your county clerk to find the proper procedure. Good luck.0 -
iluvguns Posted - 09/25/2007 : 10:21:42 PM
quote:We handle situations like this by doing a title search. If the owner cannot be found and the vehicle is not reported stolen, the state can issue a new title.
A Justice of the Peace can handle the legal forms. It helps if the owner of the property it is sitting on will sell it to you. Then a bill of sale can be notarized and submitted to the DMV at the time you request a title search.
That's the way it works in KY. I saw a nice 72 VW Transporter
You like guns and vw's?0 -
quote:You like guns and vw's?
Yeah. Guess I am just nutty that way. Why????0 -
Only asking cause thats a weird combo.
but thats my combo also, I love G[8D]uns and Volkswagens.0 -
The owner has the right to let it rust to dust. It his and that's that.
The best you can do is find out who pays the taxes to the county on the land and contact them. Thet can impound it and in 30 days get a title by lien. Then they can sell it.
You have no right to do anything with something that belongs to someone else, period.0 -
We need more information.
Whose property is this vehicle on?
What do they have to say about it?
Seems like the landowner could file a lien for storage fees on it and possibly get a judgement of possession.
Stealing is stealing and you will not get title without trying to lie about something.
There is no question of ethics, that I can see, if you were to try and push for possession. It has been abandonded.
DSM0 -
quote:Originally posted by William81
I have alway lived by a simple rule, if it is not mine, I don't want it around....
You were born into this world with nothing. So how did you get what you have now if you do not want what was not yours around? [:)]
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The Land Cruiser is on an old farm that has been vacant since 1991. The taxes are paid by a local in a sort of lease type deal. He pays the taxes. He can hunt on the property. The guy paying the taxes has not heard from the owners since late in 2000. Found the tax information through our local court house. The guy told me that the family moved to an area outside of Cleveland, OH where they were from originally. No records on them in the Cleveland area since 2002. Three "people finder" companies have turned up no leads that were correct. Same with Law enforcement and court records from both states.
As long as the taxes are being paid by someone. The land will not be turned over to the state as Delinquent Real Estate. So I cant go that route.
It just gets me that I have been trying to locate the owners for three years and all the time a fine piece of history is going to waste. Sitting on the same property is a straight 6 engined 1975 Toyota Celica GT with Toyota factory aluminum dish rims and an old Datsun B210. But both of those are beyond repair as far as I am concerned. But the Land Cruiser could be saved with a little work.
I would not just go in a take it without the law being on my side. But it seems as if the state can take land for non payment of taxes. It should be able do the same for cars and trucks that are sitting abandoned such as this one is.0 -
if it is on private property it is on private property, let it rust, sorry. 0 -
Check some birth records for the owners and see if they have some children you can find. Other than that, you're just out of luck. 0 -
If I remember right those vehicles had aluminum bodies so you may be looking at it for a long time. 0 -
lol@ oren 0 -
The state can (or could) using the recycling section of the REAP (rehabilitation environmental action plan) to remove it. Contact the state Dept. of environmental protection, But they will remove it to a junkyard and not give anyone a chance to "rehabilitate" it. (this cost me a nice customised 54 Ford) They will also levy a fine against the owners and eventually a state held lein against the property if the fine isn't paid. This doesn't sound like something you want to stir up.
Actually running down and reminding family members that the property is still in their name could cause problems. They may think it was sold for taxes years ago and put it up for quick sale to a land speculator who would then post it to everybody.
Forget the car!
Can you get the guy who's paying the taxes to let you in on hunting rights? Pick up part of the taxes or something? Sounds like a sweet setup.
Allen0 -
Morally it is a sin to let a vehicle go to waste when there is someone willing to do the work to get it running. Apply for a title and restore it. If and when anyone tries to lay claim to it you can pay them what the wreck was worth when you rescued it. 0 -
You like guns and vw's?
I used to. I have had three VW vans. I gave up on them when the last one blew a valve on me in El Salvador. The mechanic rebuilt it on a card table under a palm tree, he had a sort of "outdoor" shop.
One of the big studs that holds the head on had started to pull out from the engine block. Old Jose GLUED it back into the engine block with some K-Mart Five Minute Epoxy, not an approved American mechanic trick, but that is how they do it in El Salvador.
I figured, I will die here in El Salvador, my engine is held together with K-Mart Five Minute Epoxy. But, the damn thing made it back to Georgia and I sold it as soon as I got back. I decided to switch to Nissans after that.
Hitler's revenge, Volkswagens.0 -
I had to go through a similar issue in WV - this was with a trailor that I owned but title was lost and the person I bought it from never titled it.
The process was to place an abandoned property ad in the paper - they will send you an "official" copy of this they you will need. Then you go to court and petition the court to have the trailor. If it is on property that you do not own, you will need to owner of the property too. If the court agrees that you own it, they will order the WV DMV to issue you a new title.
The easier method is to find someone in the auto repair business that can tow the vehicle to their shop, slap a mechanics lien on it, and then get a new title issued to them.
Good Luck!0 -
LesWVa
The address the county has for them must be good if they are getting the tax bill. If not then what address does the farmer pay the lease money to? Use either address and send them a letter.
What you are dealing with is pretty common around here. We have gobs of old farm places which have been empty for decades. Often there are old cars and trucks on them people want.0 -
OH Heck, this is so easy. Tow it off, spend 15K on restoring it, and drive it down the street one time and 15 different owners will sue you for it. Tom 0 -
Warpig883
We pay our property taxes at the courthouse.
That is how they got the lease set up. As long as the guy who pays the taxes on the place, he has the rights to hunt on it. He does not send the owners anything as far as payment.
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Here is what I have been wanting get and restore.[:p]
Since I last saw it. Someone or thing has knocked the right side wing glass out of the door. But it is laying intact on the seat. The only major damage to the entire thing is on the right front fender. The rest is just small dings here and there.
What gets me the most about looking at it as a project is all of the emblems are on it and in decent shape, The front seats along with the rear folding jump seats are in great shape, Dash is in good condition. and the engine is complete except for the battery is missing. The radiator still has coolant, the oil is on the full mark...
I want it bad!!! But not bad enough to steal it..lol0 -
quote:
Abandoned property
Property is generally deemed to have been abandoned if it is found in a place where the true owner likely intended to leave it, but is in such a condition that it is apparent that the true owner has no intention of returning to claim the item. Abandoned property generally becomes the property of whoever should find it and take possession of it first, although some states have enacted statutes under which certain kinds of abandoned property - usually cars and wrecked ships and aircraft - become the property of the state.
I'd check state law and act accordingly, personally I wouldn't feel bad if someone dumped their car over a decade ago. If they haven't recovered it -- they don't want it, it's not like it's a pair of gloves that was misplaced.0 -
My thought.
Contact a realitor, tell them that you want to buy the property, and would like them to find the owner of this property so that you can purchas it or at least offer to purcahas it, ask the realitor to find out if the owner would be willing to sell and at what price?
t
The realitor will unwittinly track down all the info on the property owner they will just get a title search, easy as 123 and if your smooth enough give you all the info you need to track the owner yourself.
then approch property owner on your own not a buyer of propety but interested party in an abandon vehicle.
If you want this car you can get it legally, your just going to have to work for it.0 -
Oh, Les! I had one of those. '69, I think. Had a bullet-proof drive train. And a hi/lo transfer case if I remember correctly. A real rock crawler. I remember you could order a bell housing that would let you install a small block Chevy engine. Tell me where it is and I'll come drag it to Virginia.[:)]Just kiddin'. I think if you are persistant, you can make it yours, legally. 0 -
divebomb
And working at it I have been for a couple of years now. lol
All searching Court, property tax and law enforcement have lead to no leads at all. Both here and in Ohio.
My sister is an insurance agent for a major insurer. I gave her some information on a few VIN numbers and she will be able to locate any records of insurance if they had it in WV. If something shows up. She may be able to do a national search to see if they have insurance in another state. She may be able to contact them. But all she will be allowed by law to give me as far as information, is their name and the state in which they now reside.
Oh well it has sat in the same spot since 1991. It should be ok for a few more days or years. As long as some yahoo don't start ripping into it or using it for target practice..0
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