The Result of the NRA Sellout
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_on_go_co/congress_guns
remember the secret negotiations that the NRA had with democrats ? well looks like they made a deal and helped to further erode gun rights.
remember the secret negotiations that the NRA had with democrats ? well looks like they made a deal and helped to further erode gun rights.
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quote:Originally posted by Hunter Mag
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
Wow, confusion reigns.
You have the right to choose who you would sell a gun to. And you are just as/more qualified than some whack job psychologist.
Now that I agree with.
But how do I know if some "whack job psycologist" is in front of me in a suit wanting to buy a gun that's a felon for shooting his family but got off cause one of his buddys found him psyco? LOL
That's where I would need help from the government.
You don't. If he/she/it doesn't seem right, or you don't want to sell to him for whatever reason, don't. It is that simple.
Simply put, you get no help from "uncle sugar" because the government has ZERO authority to step into this area.
You as a private citizen can sell or not sell a firearm to whoever you wish. One would hope that you make good choices, but we all know that doesn't always happen.
This brings us back to the old "that's the price we pay to live in a free society" theory. It also illustrates the critical need to punish bad actions when they occur.
Freedom comes with a price, but this price can be tempered with "good" government action, e.g. focusing on crime and punishment for "true" (malum en se) bad acts.0 -
I broke the discs in my back in the military and the VA won't give me pain pills or surgery to fix it.
All they want to give me is happy pills. Bet that means the VA would put me on said Gun Ban list.
Who's for Dis-Banding Veterans Affairs with me?0 -
Once again...let us say it plainly.
NO GOVERNMENT ON EARTH CAN STOP ANYBODY FROM BUYING A GUN.
Given that you are insane enough to go into a crowded public place and kill people...no law can prevent it.
Placing your trust in an all-powerful federal agency to protect you and yours is MADNESS..of the first order.
Ideas like that strike at the heart of what it means to be an American...and merely being born here in this country for 10 generaations does NOT makes you an American.
'American' is a state of mind..and Americans learned a HEALTHY distrust of 'Authority' from history.
Those that cannot make the leap from overreaching federal gun control to an individual refusing to sell a firearm..somehow feeling they are the same thing...I just do not know where to start the education.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
[brAlso, who here is in favor of citizens who have "documented mental health problems" to be able to purchase a firearm just as quickly and easily as someone without such a handicap?
They called Jesus a madman and a lunatic...0 -
1911a1fan
Advanced Member
9573 Posts
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 8:54:53 PM
the plan would be common sense not to allow schizophrenics or deranged people to buy firearms, to me this is a no brainer, but our government WILL basterize it, like stated above vets, and then people who join AA, then if a person takes a certain medication, or marriage counseling, and so on they will have it where the sane have to all be certified to own a damn gun
It is that way already in Austria, ya need a shrinks note saying you are mentally stable enough to buy a gun..[:(][:(]0 -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7153339.stm
According to this BBC article, it's the anti-gun lobby who seem most displeased with this piece of legislation.
quote:But another campaign group, the Violence Policy Center, said the legislation had been "hijacked by the gun lobby and would now do far more harm than good".
"Rather than focusing on improving the current laws prohibiting people with certain mental health disabilities from buying guns, the bill is now nothing more than a gun lobby wish list," the VPC said.
The legislation would waste money to restore the gun privileges of people previously determined to present a danger to themselves or others, the group said.
So, are the law-abiding forearm owners the ones being screwed over here, or the anti-gun crowd?0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by dan55362
[:)]Ok fair enough.
With what you said and I quote "States may arguable impose certain regulations and set certain sanctions for misuse of a firearm, dependent on their particular State Constitution of course." Are you trying to tell me that the States have the power to further restrict my constitutional rights, as in the 2nd? I don't feel the States should have any regulations that take away from our constitution. As far as the States giving up to much power to the feds I couldn't not agree more. Your statement was right on[;)].
Ok. I am up, sleepy and somewhat hung-over, but let me attempt to clean this up.
The US Constitution's Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land IMO.
I was attempting to address the actions that the FEDERAL Legislature just took, in the passage of the recent abortion which is the subject of the OP.
Since the "Federal" Legislature operates expressly under the US Constitution (at least arguably) and the many states also enact unconstitutional regulation on firearms, outside of the Federal Constitution, but arguably within their own, I was trying to keep it cleanly on the Federal action, since it was "Fed" legislation we were talking about and there is no argument there, period.
Big "F" up obviously.
I referred to Cruishank to illustrate this differing and oft argued issue, to separate State action from Fed action only to head off the argument about the various states and their differing forms of gun control.
This because the Fed clearly has ZERO authority to regulate the RTKBA, but there are differing arguments about the state's ability to regulate the RTKBA, which I do not happen to agree with by the way.
Hence the "arguable" terminology.
My bringing this up was born of good intent and a desire to knock down a side argument. It seems as if I made the issue more cloudy and screwed the pooch of my point.[:I][B)]
I can see more clearly now. I am in total agreement. I will vote for you in 2008 as a write in. [:D]0 -
quote:The legislation would waste money to restore the gun privileges of people previously determined to present a danger to themselves or others, the group said.
quote:So, are the law-abiding forearm owners the ones being screwed over here, or the anti-gun crowd?
Methods have been availible for many years to gain back lost gun rights for individuals. No money was funded for those processes.
Only the criminally insane would believe that the political hacks will fund those processes THIS time....for more then a short period of time.
That being said...PLEASE tell me exactly HOW giving the government MORE information is a 'good thing'...on ANY level dealing with citizens ??????0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
quote:The legislation would waste money to restore the gun privileges of people previously determined to present a danger to themselves or others, the group said.
quote:So, are the law-abiding forearm owners the ones being screwed over here, or the anti-gun crowd?
Methods have been availible for many years to gain back lost gun rights for individuals. No money was funded for those processes.
Only the criminally insane would believe that the political hacks will fund those processes THIS time....for more then a short period of time.
That being said...PLEASE tell me exactly HOW giving the government MORE information is a 'good thing'...on ANY level dealing with citizens ??????
...just like they are funding the border fence...0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
[brAlso, who here is in favor of citizens who have "documented mental health problems" to be able to purchase a firearm just as quickly and easily as someone without such a handicap?
They called Jesus a madman and a lunatic...
That was then. This is now.0 -
I don't know why I bother. On the one hand the NRA detractors shout for the demise of the NRA. On the other hand they preach about how it is too big, rich and powerful. Powerful enough that it is able to make deals with politicians and "sell down the river the gun rights of members and non-members".
Yet the NRA is not some foreign government beyond our control. Nor is it some huge, privately owned company that is beyond our control. Of all the gun rights groups it is the only one that has a governing board of directors that are elected by the NRA members.
HELLO! That means that if the gun owners here would spend less time posting, complaining and griping about how bad the NRA is, and instead spent more time "buying a piece of the NRA by joining" and then voting board members in that agree with their goals, or even becoming a board member themselves, they could totally and completely turn the NRA into anything they want. It in effect would become "their" NRA. Then all that "power" and "deal making" and selling and buying things down the river and all that money could be used in the way that the complaining members here see fit. Or you could even disband the NRA when you and your group was running it.
But oh, no. Rather than do something contructive and actually make a change in the situation.it is easier and more fun to just bitch and gripe. So let me get out of your way so you can continue.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I don't know why I bother. On the one hand the NRA detractors shout for the demise of the NRA. On the other hand they preach about how it is too big, rich and powerful. Powerful enough that it is able to make deals with politicians and "sell down the river the gun rights of members and non-members".
Yet the NRA is not some foreign government beyond our control. Nor is it some huge, privately owned company that is beyond our control. Of all the gun rights groups it is the only one that has a governing board of directors that are elected by the NRA members.
HELLO! That means that if the gun owners here would spend less time posting, complaining and griping about how bad the NRA is, and instead spent more time "buying a piece of the NRA by joining" and then voting board members in that agree with their goals, or even becoming a board member themselves, they could totally and completely turn the NRA into anything they want. It in effect would become "their" NRA. Then all that "power" and "deal making" and selling and buying things down the river and all that money could be used in the way that the complaining members here see fit. Or you could even disband the NRA when you and your group was running it.
But oh, no. Rather than do something contructive and actually make a change in the situation.it is easier and more fun to just bitch and gripe. So let me get out of your way so you can continue.
You've been whining about changing it from within for years trfox...Has it happened?!?! NO!...but they continue to help strip our rights away.0 -
"Amendment Two
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
aNY QUESTIONS ???
dOUG0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I don't know why I bother. On the one hand the NRA detractors shout for the demise of the NRA. On the other hand they preach about how it is too big, rich and powerful. Powerful enough that it is able to make deals with politicians and "sell down the river the gun rights of members and non-members".
Yet the NRA is not some foreign government beyond our control. Nor is it some huge, privately owned company that is beyond our control. Of all the gun rights groups it is the only one that has a governing board of directors that are elected by the NRA members.
HELLO! That means that if the gun owners here would spend less time posting, complaining and griping about how bad the NRA is, and instead spent more time "buying a piece of the NRA by joining" and then voting board members in that agree with their goals, or even becoming a board member themselves, they could totally and completely turn the NRA into anything they want. It in effect would become "their" NRA. Then all that "power" and "deal making" and selling and buying things down the river and all that money could be used in the way that the complaining members here see fit. Or you could even disband the NRA when you and your group was running it.
But oh, no. Rather than do something contructive and actually make a change in the situation.it is easier and more fun to just bitch and gripe. So let me get out of your way so you can continue.
Your blind support of this issue shows you have turned your back on your former brothers in arms........0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
the plan would be common sense not to allow schizophrenics or deranged people to buy firearms, to me this is a no brainer, but our government WILL basterize it, like stated above vets, and then people who join AA, then if a person takes a certain medication, or marriage counseling, and so on they will have it where the sane have to all be certified to own a damn gun
I would add individuals with bi-polar and severe depression to that list, but I agree that you cannot trust our Government to implement it correctly without affecting individuals that should continue to have access to firearms.
It is very difficult to commit anyone to a mental institution today. They have to be a danger to others or a danger to themselves before they can be committed unless they choose to commit themselves.
Maybe that would be the litmus test that would be most accurate. Have to be committed by a board of their peers before the no-gun order applies. I am sure this will not be the way it works in real life. It appears that we are being squeezed in all directions to eliminate firearms from the face of our Country. The recent stupid laws signed into law in CA by the Governator is a big disappointment.0 -
quote:Of all the gun rights groups it is the only one that has a governing board of directors that are elected by the NRA members.
Elected predominately by people like You, TR...people that see no harm in gun control !!
There is ABSOLUTELY no hope of 'changing the NRA' unless folks 'like you' come to your senses and understand where you are driving us as a country.0 -
My statement about selling us down a river really sticks in your craw doesn't it TR?
Good.0 -
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quote:Originally posted by dan55362
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by dan55362
[:)]Ok fair enough.
With what you said and I quote "States may arguable impose certain regulations and set certain sanctions for misuse of a firearm, dependent on their particular State Constitution of course." Are you trying to tell me that the States have the power to further restrict my constitutional rights, as in the 2nd? I don't feel the States should have any regulations that take away from our constitution. As far as the States giving up to much power to the feds I couldn't not agree more. Your statement was right on[;)].
Ok. I am up, sleepy and somewhat hung-over, but let me attempt to clean this up.
The US Constitution's Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land IMO.
I was attempting to address the actions that the FEDERAL Legislature just took, in the passage of the recent abortion which is the subject of the OP.
Since the "Federal" Legislature operates expressly under the US Constitution (at least arguably) and the many states also enact unconstitutional regulation on firearms, outside of the Federal Constitution, but arguably within their own, I was trying to keep it cleanly on the Federal action, since it was "Fed" legislation we were talking about and there is no argument there, period.
Big "F" up obviously.
I referred to Cruishank to illustrate this differing and oft argued issue, to separate State action from Fed action only to head off the argument about the various states and their differing forms of gun control.
This because the Fed clearly has ZERO authority to regulate the RTKBA, but there are differing arguments about the state's ability to regulate the RTKBA, which I do not happen to agree with by the way.
Hence the "arguable" terminology.
My bringing this up was born of good intent and a desire to knock down a side argument. It seems as if I made the issue more cloudy and screwed the pooch of my point.[:I][B)]
I can see more clearly now. I am in total agreement. I will vote for you in 2008 as a write in. [:D]
Email me for the correct spelling of my name.[;)][:o)][:D]0 -
Apparently you missed this the first time tr, or you are refusing to respond. I would like an answer concerning your change of attitude.....
quote:jpwolf
Senior Member
USA
2192 Posts
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 12:45:51 AM
Tr, enough is enough. I am sick to death of the supposed ignorance you have of the NRA. After all of the 100's of logical discussions that have taken place here, you have gone from 50/50 not sure to 110% for the NRA. This makes no sense and is illogical. You must have a mental defect and therefore have no right to a firearm!!!!!!!(Hey I based this on your own defense, and I am as qualified as one of those quacks, believe me)
Pay attention cause I'm only going to say this once Tr.
IT IS NOT SCIENCE! It's closer to some sort of whacked out religion! 90% of psychologists have a psychologist. It's NOT real but is given credibility and deserves NONE OF IT! Now they want to base a constitutional right on it!?!? BS, and you, defending it! What is your problem?
As far as NRA, Go back and read some of your thoughts from 4 years ago on this subject.0 -
I find that some of my views have changed, during the time I've been a GB member.
Youz guys is mo smartier then my face.
Doug0 -
i am a life member of the NRA. I have contacted them, both by e-mail and telephonically, to voice my dismay over this. I have also stated to them that I no longer support their causes because they don't ask their members, who pay their bills/salaries, for fortheir ideas/concerns and act without such.
Lance0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
HELLO! That means that if the gun owners here would spend less time posting, complaining and griping about how bad the NRA is, and instead spent more time "buying a piece of the NRA by joining" and then voting board members in that agree with their goals, or even becoming a board member themselves, they could totally and completely turn the NRA into anything they want. It in effect would become "their" NRA. Then all that "power" and "deal making" and selling and buying things down the river and all that money could be used in the way that the complaining members here see fit. Or you could even disband the NRA when you and your group was running it.
But oh, no. Rather than do something contructive and actually make a change in the situation.it is easier and more fun to just bitch and gripe. So let me get out of your way so you can continue.
I am a life member and have been since 1983. If the NRA needs funds for lobbying they will not get it from me until Uncle Wayne takes a big pay cut. There is absolutely no reason he should draw over $900,000 per year taken from member donations for what he does. I once asked a NRA representative if Uncle Wayne was in that position for life, needless to say the NRA rep dodged the question.
Many years ago the membership took control of the NRA only to lose it again when Uncle Wayne established his power base. It is not about protecting the gun rights of anyone any more, it is all about how much money the leadership can rake in for themselves. In the past I was a strong supporter of the NRA and a strong finanical supporter as well until I learned more about the internal workings of the organization. Since that time I have not let one penny cross from my hand to theirs. Now any donations I have to pro-gun organizations goes to the GOA. If the Fuds think the NRA is looking out for them they will eventually be sadly mistaken.0 -
"The measure would clarify what mental health records should be reported to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which help gun dealers determine whether to sell a firearm to a prospective buyer,..."
These people cannot even explain what the NICS IS, much less tell the whole, unvarnished truth about ANYTHING(apparently, the whole, unvarnished truth is what some of you wade in every day, all day long..).
Yet some of you misguided souls read their splatter on the web and slurp it up like Communion Wine, even if it assaults the senses and smacks of disinformation. 2008 is an ELECTION YEAR; get ready to hear how bad it can get.0 -
Criminal Background Check System, which help gun dealers determine whether to sell a firearm to a prospective buyer,..."
quote:These people cannot even explain what the NICS IS, much less tell the whole, unvarnished truth about ANYTHING(apparently, the whole, unvarnished truth is what some of you wade in every day, all day long..)Stupid is as stupid does.
Let me tell you about Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart will sell you a gun...IF you pass the NICS check RIGHT NOW...they refuse to sell that gun to you if you are delayed.
So therefore, the stinking NICS check..and the delay...'Helps' Wal-Mart decide you are criminally insane...or a felon...and they refuse to sell you a gun.0 -
THE NRA STINKS. So does GOA, SAF, JPFO, and any or all of the
rest of the gun rights organizations. At the same time, all of these
organizations are the best thing since sliced bread. We won't keep
our rights without them. It's normal to love them and hate them at
the same time. Be sure your complaints about them go to the person
who can do something about your problem. Never give up your
membership -- it's much easier to fix things from the inside.
Avoid griping in public -- our opponents love it when we do.
Always handle our dirty laundry behind closed doors. Always.0 -
quote:THE NRA STINKS.
Fully agreed.
quote:So does GOA, SAF, JPFO, and any or all of the
rest of the gun rights organizations.
Don't think so at all.
quote:At the same time, all of these
organizations are the best thing since sliced bread.Shouldn't NEED any of 'em..a good bietch-slapping of those promoting gun control would suffice nicely...
quote: We won't keep our rights without them. Nonsense. The reason we still have a few 'rights' is because the Elites realize they have pushed about as far as they can...RIGHT NOW..on gun control without risking open rebellion from the few Americans left in America..and the chance they could lose it all is still too close to call...RIGHT NOW.
quote:It's normal to love them and hate them at the same time. I do neither. I despise the wholesale sell-out of the Second Amendment and the Constitution by them. 'Hate/Love are emotions that have ZERO impact on nameless, faceless walls of beaurorats.
quote:Be sure your complaints about them go to the person who can do something about your problem. Agreed, here...we ARE complaining to the ONLY people that can change things for the better...an EDUCATED member..or former member of the organization. Thinking that you are going to pick the phone up and call someone in an office that gives a ratssass about your 'complaint' is ludricous.
quote:Never give up your membership -- it's much easier to fix things from the inside. Ya..you bet. 3 million just like TRFox. Supports Gun Control, 'ya know...but somehow he...and millions others just like him...are 'better'..somehow..then Shumer/Fiendstein/bush...get the picture ?
quote:Avoid griping in public -- our opponents love it when we do.
Always handle our dirty laundry behind closed doors. Always.
REALLY ? I also don't give a ratsssaaa about what anti-gunners 'think' about me. See...I believe that somewhere down the line...we Americans are going to have to go toe-to-toe with the scum-sucking Fascist/Socialist Elitests of this country...and we are going to see who has bigger balls.
Till then..they can bite my rosie red...behind.0 -
I think that the NRA did what was right in this case. Yes, there are some things that could be clarified, but in supporting this bill the NRA has done something that will ultimately prove to be good for reasonable law-abiding gun owners. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
quote:THE NRA STINKS.
Fully agreed.
quote:So does GOA, SAF, JPFO, and any or all of the
rest of the gun rights organizations.
Don't think so at all.
quote:At the same time, all of these
organizations are the best thing since sliced bread.Shouldn't NEED any of 'em..a good bietch-slapping of those promoting gun control would suffice nicely...
quote: We won't keep our rights without them. Nonsense. The reason we still have a few 'rights' is because the Elites realize they have pushed about as far as they can...RIGHT NOW..on gun control without risking open rebellion from the few Americans left in America..and the chance they could lose it all is still too close to call...RIGHT NOW.
quote:It's normal to love them and hate them at the same time. I do neither. I despise the wholesale sell-out of the Second Amendment and the Constitution by them. 'Hate/Love are emotions that have ZERO impact on nameless, faceless walls of beaurorats.
quote:Be sure your complaints about them go to the person who can do something about your problem. Agreed, here...we ARE complaining to the ONLY people that can change things for the better...an EDUCATED member..or former member of the organization. Thinking that you are going to pick the phone up and call someone in an office that gives a ratssass about your 'complaint' is ludricous.
quote:Never give up your membership -- it's much easier to fix things from the inside. Ya..you bet. 3 million just like TRFox. Supports Gun Control, 'ya know...but somehow he...and millions others just like him...are 'better'..somehow..then Shumer/Fiendstein/bush...get the picture ?
quote:Avoid griping in public -- our opponents love it when we do.
Always handle our dirty laundry behind closed doors. Always.
REALLY ? I also don't give a ratsssaaa about what anti-gunners 'think' about me. See...I believe that somewhere down the line...we Americans are going to have to go toe-to-toe with the scum-sucking Fascist/Socialist Elitests of this country...and we are going to see who has bigger balls.
Till then..they can bite my rosie red...behind.
You are dead on Highball. Several years ago I contacted the NRA and demanded to know why one of their lawyers was arguing in court that they felt as if there should be reasonable restrictions on the right to bear arms. Not only did the NRA blow me off, but I never heard another word from them. Up until that point, I had been giving them the benefit of the doubt...along with buku $$$$. That was the turning point for me...the last straw. I had witnessed many things up until this point...but this was the moment that they spit in my face and told me that they did not want to hear it. Screw the NRA. I fully expect to see half of them on the other side of the battlefield.0 -
For several years I have monitored, and at times posted my thoughts on this board. Over the past several days I have read how many members are dissatified with the NRA. Don't get me wrong, I am not the defender of the NRA and I'm not paid to be. They have people for that. But when I think of what I've read and after thinking it over an old military slogan comes to mind:
LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET THE F@#& outta the way!
I now understand why so many are willing to drop out of the fight. They have neither the willingness to LEAD or the eagerness to FOLLOW, both require unwaivering dedication to the mission. If you are a member of the NRA and dislike the direction the orginization is taking then you should run for office and change it. Otherwise be an informed soldier and make your concerns known to the elected officials within the organization. How many members here have?
Wanna change something? Then be the LEADER. Do you want to Affirm someone that you beleive has it right, then FOLLOW and support. Otherwise you are the guy that gets sent for food, water and ammunition or even worse GETS THE F@#& OUT and leaves everyone else behind.
If George Washington had to rely on some of the posters here as soldiers we would be asking "What time is tea?"
My response; a half past too late.0
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