Should you be allowed to carry
concealed in a court room?
0
-
After careful consideration I have completely changed my position on this. I no longer feel that anyone but the law officers on duty whose job it is to maintain order and safety in the courtroom and courthouse should be allowed to carry ANY weapons. I think that in this case the safety of the public and courtroom personnel outweigh any right to carry a weapon, even for a peaceful, lawful citizen.
For an example, how would you feel if some gang member raped and killed your daughter and was now on trial. Say You and a small number of your lawful, peaceful relatives (maybe even with each one carrying a concealed firearm) were in the courtroom to observe the trial.
But say that gangmember who is on trial, had a large number of his gang buddies (who are known, but not ever convicted, of being unlawful, violent people) was sitting in the courtroom and it was assumed that they were also armed. Say that that gang just sat there glaring at the jury and daring the jury to find their buddy guilty.
Like it or not, that implied threat (and the concealed weapons to backup that threat) just might be enough to get that gangmember to be found not guilty. Or, at best, to cause a hung jury and now either he gets off or the trial has to be done all over.
Maybe at one time when the court officers could not easily keep out firearms and other weapons, having a rule about no weapons in the courtrrom/house was about as ineffective as the "no CCW firearms" posted on some stores in states that have CCW. Meaning that the honest, lawful peaceful people would be the only ones you could count to obey the law and the violent criminals would do as they please. But what with x-ray machines, magnetometers and handheld wands, I believe that ALL weapons can be prevented from entering a courthouse/room. And that is how it should be.0 -
If legal of course. If not legal, no.
What is the big deal here?0 -
You call it anything you want. But when a judge decides everyone but the Baliff isn't going to be armed, in his courtroom, that is the law of the land in his courtroom, no matter what the constutition says. He has the power to suspend all the amendments in his courtroom. 0 -
.... but, but, it's a GOD GIVEN RIGHT!
[:D]0 -
I was a court clerk for several years and I did not trust 85% of the bailiff's with a gun. Why would I want to give over my personal security to those guys? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
After careful consideration I have completely changed my position on this. I no longer feel that anyone but the law officers on duty whose job it is to maintain order and safety in the courtroom and courthouse should be allowed to carry ANY weapons. I think that in this case the safety of the public and courtroom personnel outweigh any right to carry a weapon, even for a peaceful, lawful citizen.
For an example, how would you feel if some gang member raped and killed your daughter and was now on trial. Say You and a small number of your lawful, peaceful relatives (maybe even with each one carrying a concealed firearm) were in the courtroom to observe the trial.
But say that gangmember who is on trial, had a large number of his gang buddies (who are known, but not ever convicted, of being unlawful, violent people) was sitting in the courtroom and it was assumed that they were also armed. Say that that gang just sat there glaring at the jury and daring the jury to find their buddy guilty.
Like it or not, that implied threat (and the concealed weapons to backup that threat) just might be enough to get that gangmember to be found not guilty. Or, at best, to cause a hung jury and now either he gets off or the trial has to be done all over.
Maybe at one time when the court officers could not easily keep out firearms and other weapons, having a rule about no weapons in the courtrrom/house was about as ineffective as the "no CCW firearms" posted on some stores in states that have CCW. Meaning that the honest, lawful peaceful people would be the only ones you could count to obey the law and the violent criminals would do as they please. But what with x-ray machines, magnetometers and handheld wands, I believe that ALL weapons can be prevented from entering a courthouse/room. And that is how it should be.
THANK YOU FOR FINALLY THINKING IT THROUGH. The senario is exactly what I outlined.0 -
quote:Don't you guys EVER think anything through? "Any lawabiding citizen" would also include unindicted gang members, suspected terriorist, mobsters, members of the accused family, brothers/fathers/uncles of rape victims, and maybe just some idiot that wants to kill a big name.
So what are you talking about, maybe .0000001% of the population? Yea, we should all be infringed upon for them, because "if it saves just one life...."
Liberal thinking at it's finest.0 -
Sorry, folks, but am with TR on this one. I have been (at times) trusted by my nation with nuclear weapons. Does walking into the courthouse make me untrustworthy? FWIW, recently visited our state capitol with grandaughter- was carrying. Showed officer at the metal detector my CCW, he thanked me, wished me a good day, and we walked in. As a citizen, it is MY Capitol bldg- and no matter what the judge thinks, it is MY courthouse. BTW, he is also MY employee. Surgeons are not the only folks that develop a God complex. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Don't you guys EVER think anything through? "Any lawabiding citizen" would also include unindicted gang members, suspected terriorist, mobsters, members of the accused family, brothers/fathers/uncles of rape victims, and maybe just some idiot that wants to kill a big name.
You really want to be in there with all of those jokers holding your life in their hands?[xx(]
Heck, you make it sound like rhe average Oakland Raiders home game. What you think that because there is a better than average chance of running into a bad guy that you should be disarmed!!!0 -
quote:After careful consideration I have completely changed my position on this. I no longer feel that anyone but the law officers on duty whose job it is to maintain order and safety in the courtroom and courthouse should be allowed to carry ANY weapons. I think that in this case the safety of the public and courtroom personnel outweigh any right to carry a weapon, even for a peaceful, lawful citizen.
We already knew this about you. After all, you're the rabid NRA supporter and this is EXACTLY the kind of infringements they push ALL the time. But congratulations are in order for finally getting stones enough to admit publicly and unabshedly, that you are FOR gun kontrol. How does it feel to be out of the closet TR?[xx(]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Shootist3006
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Don't you guys EVER think anything through? "Any lawabiding citizen" would also include unindicted gang members, suspected terriorist, mobsters, members of the accused family, brothers/fathers/uncles of rape victims, and maybe just some idiot that wants to kill a big name.
You really want to be in there with all of those jokers holding your life in their hands?[xx(]
Heck, you make it sound like rhe average Oakland Raiders home game. What you think that because there is a better than average chance of running into a bad guy that you should be disarmed!!!
Is foresight and common sense suspended for this thread? Given the potential for a death sentence or life in prison, does anyone think that a convicts' cohorts would peaceably accept a verdict that goes against their buddy? Would a family stonicly sit on their thumbs if their childs killer were released for lack of evidence?
Does anyone wonder why flame producing articles are not allowed in explosive plants or magazines? Lots of folks need to pull their heads out of their asses.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:After careful consideration I have completely changed my position on this. I no longer feel that anyone but the law officers on duty whose job it is to maintain order and safety in the courtroom and courthouse should be allowed to carry ANY weapons. I think that in this case the safety of the public and courtroom personnel outweigh any right to carry a weapon, even for a peaceful, lawful citizen.
We already knew this about you. After all, you're the rabid NRA supporter and this is EXACTLY the kind of infringements they push ALL the time. But congratulations are in order for finally getting stones enough to admit publicly and unabshedly, that you are FOR gun kontrol. How does it feel to be out of the closet TR?[xx(]
MY, My, what an angry, hate-filled Christian gentleman.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mk 19
I was a court clerk for several years and I did not trust 85% of the bailiff's with a gun. Why would I want to give over my personal security to those guys?
The best solution there is to get more qualified bailiffs.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Sorry, folks, but am with TR on this one. I have been (at times) trusted by my nation with nuclear weapons. Does walking into the courthouse make me untrustworthy? FWIW, recently visited our state capitol with grandaughter- was carrying. Showed officer at the metal detector my CCW, he thanked me, wished me a good day, and we walked in. As a citizen, it is MY Capitol bldg- and no matter what the judge thinks, it is MY courthouse. BTW, he is also MY employee. Surgeons are not the only folks that develop a God complex.
Thanks for the kind words, but I posted that I now do not support carrying of weapons into a courtroom. At one time, allowing the peaceful, lawful citizens to carry made sense because those good citizens could, if it came to it, be an antidote if the bad guys in the courtroom, with their weapons, started acting up. But now, what with metal detectors, x-ray machines, hand held wands, it is possible to keep out all weapons.
If my loved one is hurt or killed and the perpertrator is on trial, I don't want the judge and jury to be put in fear of their lives by the perpertrators armed friends crowding the courtroom and trying to intimidate the jury and judge by the presence of the armed friends. Because if that happens, it just might be enough to cause the jury to be a hung jury or to even find the perpetrator innocent when he should be found guilty.
So, bottom line, if ALL weapons (except for court personnel whose job it is to keep order) can be kept out of, say a courtroom, then I am in favor of NOBODY being armed. But in situation where all weapons cannot be kept out then I favor peaceful, lawful citizens freely carrying.
For the one or two of you who want to get nasty about disagreeing, think how you would feel if yur son or daughter was hurt or killed and the guilty perpetrator got off because his friends packed the courtroom (with their concealed firearms) and thereby intimidated the judge and jury and so got found not guilty. And please don't give me any crap about how you and your concealed firearm would jump up and despense justice on the spot if what I described did happen.0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
quote:Originally posted by Shootist3006
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Don't you guys EVER think anything through? "Any lawabiding citizen" would also include unindicted gang members, suspected terriorist, mobsters, members of the accused family, brothers/fathers/uncles of rape victims, and maybe just some idiot that wants to kill a big name.
You really want to be in there with all of those jokers holding your life in their hands?[xx(]
Heck, you make it sound like rhe average Oakland Raiders home game. What you think that because there is a better than average chance of running into a bad guy that you should be disarmed!!!
Is foresight and common sense suspended for this thread? Given the potential for a death sentence or life in prison, does anyone think that a convicts' cohorts would peaceably accept a verdict that goes against their buddy? Would a family stonicly sit on their thumbs if their childs killer were released for lack of evidence?
Does anyone wonder why flame producing articles are not allowed in explosive plants or magazines? Lots of folks need to pull their heads out of their asses.
so remove guns from the courtroom and let the violence happen outside on the courthouse steps or in the parking lot? if a violent reaction to a verdict is going to happen, it will happen regardless of whether guns are allowed in the courhouse or not.0 -
I like to think of the Whole Earth as My Court.
Last time I was in court in Bellaire (as a favor to a friend) The judge stopped the procedings and had the bailiff pat me down. She said she was doing it because she thought I had a cell-phone on me, which I didn't. I guess some people just don't like the look of me[}:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
wartiger
Starting Member
34 Posts
Posted - 02/01/2008 : 2:28:20 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
Absolutely not! Having worked court room security as a Deputy Sheriff, it can be very stressful during emotional cases, such as murder, rape, or child molestion. You let the father of a victim cary a gun into the court room and see what happens. You may be a sound, honest, law abiding citizen and then see the monster who hurt your child or raped your daughter and sanity goes out the window. Only Bailiffs, Deputies or Police should be allowed to carry into a court room. Besides, what reason would you have to carry a gun into a court room other than to a) exact your own justice or b) just to prove a senseless point? Just my opinion.
Go to Top of Page
Alpine
Advanced Member
3433 Posts
Posted - 02/01/2008 : 2:37:39 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
Nope. I was a bailiff in Superior Court. I was between the crooks and the crowd I wanted to be the only armed person in the room.
Please refer to "jack-booted storm trooper" posts.
Doug
10-4 Doug.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Sorry, folks, but am with TR on this one. I have been (at times) trusted by my nation with nuclear weapons. Does walking into the courthouse make me untrustworthy? FWIW, recently visited our state capitol with grandaughter- was carrying. Showed officer at the metal detector my CCW, he thanked me, wished me a good day, and we walked in. As a citizen, it is MY Capitol bldg- and no matter what the judge thinks, it is MY courthouse. BTW, he is also MY employee. Surgeons are not the only folks that develop a God complex.
Thanks for the kind words, but I posted that I now do not support carrying of weapons into a courtroom. At one time, allowing the peaceful, lawful citizens to carry made sense because those good citizens could, if it came to it, be an antidote if the bad guys in the courtroom, with their weapons, started acting up. But now, what with metal detectors, x-ray machines, hand held wands, it is possible to keep out all weapons.
If my loved one is hurt or killed and the perpertrator is on trial, I don't want the judge and jury to be put in fear of their lives by the perpertrators armed friends crowding the courtroom and trying to intimidate the jury and judge by the presence of the armed friends. Because if that happens, it just might be enough to cause the jury to be a hung jury or to even find the perpetrator innocent when he should be found guilty.
So, bottom line, if ALL weapons (except for court personnel whose job it is to keep order) can be kept out of, say a courtroom, then I am in favor of NOBODY being armed. But in situation where all weapons cannot be kept out then I favor peaceful, lawful citizens freely carrying.
For the one or two of you who want to get nasty about disagreeing, think how you would feel if yur son or daughter was hurt or killed and the guilty perpetrator got off because his friends packed the courtroom (with their concealed firearms) and thereby intimidated the judge and jury and so got found not guilty. And please don't give me any crap about how you and your concealed firearm would jump up and despense justice on the spot if what I described did happen.
isn't it possible that the intimidation could take place without the obvious threat of weapons? or before the trial or during the trial outside of the confines of the courthouse. these hypothetical associates of the perp could "get to" a judge or jury anwhere, not just by their presence in the courthouse.0 -
quote:Originally posted by smellslikemichigan
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Sorry, folks, but am with TR on this one. I have been (at times) trusted by my nation with nuclear weapons. Does walking into the courthouse make me untrustworthy? FWIW, recently visited our state capitol with grandaughter- was carrying. Showed officer at the metal detector my CCW, he thanked me, wished me a good day, and we walked in. As a citizen, it is MY Capitol bldg- and no matter what the judge thinks, it is MY courthouse. BTW, he is also MY employee. Surgeons are not the only folks that develop a God complex.
Thanks for the kind words, but I posted that I now do not support carrying of weapons into a courtroom. At one time, allowing the peaceful, lawful citizens to carry made sense because those good citizens could, if it came to it, be an antidote if the bad guys in the courtroom, with their weapons, started acting up. But now, what with metal detectors, x-ray machines, hand held wands, it is possible to keep out all weapons.
If my loved one is hurt or killed and the perpertrator is on trial, I don't want the judge and jury to be put in fear of their lives by the perpertrators armed friends crowding the courtroom and trying to intimidate the jury and judge by the presence of the armed friends. Because if that happens, it just might be enough to cause the jury to be a hung jury or to even find the perpetrator innocent when he should be found guilty.
So, bottom line, if ALL weapons (except for court personnel whose job it is to keep order) can be kept out of, say a courtroom, then I am in favor of NOBODY being armed. But in situation where all weapons cannot be kept out then I favor peaceful, lawful citizens freely carrying.
For the one or two of you who want to get nasty about disagreeing, think how you would feel if yur son or daughter was hurt or killed and the guilty perpetrator got off because his friends packed the courtroom (with their concealed firearms) and thereby intimidated the judge and jury and so got found not guilty. And please don't give me any crap about how you and your concealed firearm would jump up and despense justice on the spot if what I described did happen.
isn't it possible that the intimidation could take place without the obvious threat of weapons? True, but I prefer to make it as difficult as possible for that to happen. Allowing unrestricted CCW could make that intimidation a whole lot easier. or before the trial or during the trial outside of the confines of the courthouse. Yep. And if I was involved that would worry me. But above all else we must make as sure as we can that justice is fairly arrived at in the courtoom. That is important above all else these hypothetical associates of the perp could "get to" a judge or jury anwhere, not just by their presence in the courthouse.Once again, you are correct. I just don't want to be party to making the perps "getting to" the judge or jury any easier than it has to be
tr fox in red above.0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Probably not.
Perverts, divorces, things that really get under your skin, all in a place that is sometimes very unfair. Nope. Packed like sardines in there, it is a very unfriendly shootout place.
I have to agree...
Besides it is not necessary as there should be armed officers there...0 -
quote:Originally posted by tobefree
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Probably not.
Perverts, divorces, things that really get under your skin, all in a place that is sometimes very unfair. Nope. Packed like sardines in there, it is a very unfriendly shootout place.
I have to agree...
Besides it is not necessary as there should be armed officers there...
Exactly. One of the reasons I and my daughter carry (besides the fact that in a supposely free country, lawful citizens should have a maximum of rights and freedoms)is that usually if a citizen needs protectin from violent attack, the police are not able to be there. But in a courtroom, there are usually several armed officers in the room with several others close-by in the building. I feel pretty well protected.0 -
If a person had a CCW and it didn't prohibit it under the guidelines of that persons CCW laws then fine carry it. But I think there is a big potential for revenge killings to go on-- or criminals getting ahold of a gun as even deputies have had their firearms snatched away and mayhem ensues. 0 -
quote:Absolutely not! Having worked court room security as a Deputy Sheriff, ......... Only Bailiffs, Deputies or Police should be allowed to carry into a court room.
quote:Nope. I was a bailiff in Superior Court. I was between the crooks and the crowd I wanted to be the only armed person in the room.
Interesting observations there from a couple of self proclaimed elites.
If noone in the room is armed, why would LEOs need to carry?
Surely they wouldn't use deadly force against someone who isn't capable of exerting deadly force.
Do as I say, not as I do, huh?0 -
quote:Originally posted by stanman
quote:Absolutely not! Having worked court room security as a Deputy Sheriff, ......... Only Bailiffs, Deputies or Police should be allowed to carry into a court room.
quote:Nope. I was a bailiff in Superior Court. I was between the crooks and the crowd I wanted to be the only armed person in the room.
Interesting observations there from a couple of self proclaimed elites.
If noone in the room is armed, why would LEOs need to carry?
Surely they wouldn't use deadly force against someone who isn't capable of exerting deadly force.
Do as I say, not as I do, huh?
What if you were getting severly beaten by an unarmed mob. If the police showed up to save you, wouldn't you be a little unhappy if the only thing they had to work with was their bare hands? If I have my gun, I will try to protect myself. But if for some reason I don't have or can't have my gun, and I have to depend on the police to protect me, I sure want them carrying guns. Big guns with lots of bullets.0 -
quote:
Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:
After careful consideration I have completely changed my position on this. I no longer feel that anyone but the law officers on duty whose job it is to maintain order and safety in the courtroom and courthouse should be allowed to carry ANY weapons. I think that in this case the safety of the public and courtroom personnel outweigh any right to carry a weapon, even for a peaceful, lawful citizen.
We already knew this about you. After all, you're the rabid NRA supporter and this is EXACTLY the kind of infringements they push ALL the time. But congratulations are in order for finally getting stones enough to admit publicly and unabshedly, that you are FOR gun kontrol. How does it feel to be out of the closet TR?
MY, My, what an angry, hate-filled Christian gentleman.
TR, I don't hate you, I hate the "give away our rights" attitutde you have. The "lick their jack-boots, comply no matter what" attitude. I merely pointed out that that is how you come around to supporting NRA, your flawed line of reasoning. Admit it, you were burned by your comments, and rather than man-up and admit you were wrong you replied with "MY, My, what an angry, hate-filled Christian gentleman".
You may feel safe having someone else protect you, and therefore allowing infringements to make that happen. I only feel safe when it is ME looking throught he sights on my .45. You also stated that you had your daughter carry? Was that in Kansas where there is no government permissable CCW as yet? Shame shame, that is not compliance.0 -
quote:What if you were getting severly beaten by an unarmed mob. If the police showed up to save you, wouldn't you be a little unhappy if the only thing they had to work with was their bare hands? If I have my gun, I will try to protect myself. But if for some reason I don't have or can't have my gun, and I have to depend on the police to protect me, I sure want them carrying guns. Big guns with lots of bullets.
tr,
The subject of the thread was carrying "concealed in a courtroom", and that's what my response was pertaining to.
If there is a case of some innocent being beaten by an unarmed mob "in a courtroom" and the police showing up to protect that innocent with the use of deadly force, then that incident has slipped my mind. (I'm kinda old ya know)
I DO remember, however, a couple cases in recent history where convicted felons have wrestled guns from "courtroom security" and gone on shooting sprees killing and wounding many innocents.
Perhaps just one armed citizen in the crowd could have brought a quick resolution to those situations.
Do you believe that the Virginia Tech students were well served by police or do you support the liberal agenda of "gun free zones" in that case as well?
Maybe we should just declare "gun free zones" inside all city limits or anywhere within 30 blocks of a police station, because after all, the police will show up to protect you,,,RIGHT??
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
the good fortune to run into the ones I do like,
and the eyesight to tell the difference.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:
Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:
After careful consideration I have completely changed my position on this. I no longer feel that anyone but the law officers on duty whose job it is to maintain order and safety in the courtroom and courthouse should be allowed to carry ANY weapons. I think that in this case the safety of the public and courtroom personnel outweigh any right to carry a weapon, even for a peaceful, lawful citizen.
We already knew this about you. After all, you're the rabid NRA supporter and this is EXACTLY the kind of infringements they push ALL the time. But congratulations are in order for finally getting stones enough to admit publicly and unabshedly, that you are FOR gun kontrol. How does it feel to be out of the closet TR?
MY, My, what an angry, hate-filled Christian gentleman.
TR, I don't hate you, I hate the "give away our rights" attitutde you have. The "lick their jack-boots, comply no matter what" attitude. I merely pointed out that that is how you come around to supporting NRA, your flawed line of reasoning. Admit it, you were burned by your comments, and rather than man-up and admit you were wrong you replied with "MY, My, what an angry, hate-filled Christian gentleman".
You may feel safe having someone else protect you, and therefore allowing infringements to make that happen. I only feel safe when it is ME looking throught he sights on my .45. You also stated that you had your daughter carry? Was that in Kansas where there is no government permissable CCW as yet? Shame shame, that is not compliance.
You often times express anger and hate at me, not at our sometimes conflicting ideas. Which is fine, as angry words on a computer screen have less importance to me than what I flush down the crapper every day. In regards to your wise-ass comments about my daughter and my concealed carry, do some checking and realize that Kansas has that concealed carry that you hate so much (it is better than nothing and will do until we can do better) and both my daughter and I have our license.0 -
quote:Originally posted by stanman
quote:What if you were getting severly beaten by an unarmed mob. If the police showed up to save you, wouldn't you be a little unhappy if the only thing they had to work with was their bare hands? If I have my gun, I will try to protect myself. But if for some reason I don't have or can't have my gun, and I have to depend on the police to protect me, I sure want them carrying guns. Big guns with lots of bullets.
tr,
The subject of the thread was carrying "concealed in a courtroom", and that's what my response was pertaining to.
If there is a case of some innocent being beaten by an unarmed mob "in a courtroom" and the police showing up to protect that innocent with the use of deadly force, then that incident has slipped my mind. (I'm kinda old ya know)
I DO remember, however, a couple cases in recent history where convicted felons have wrestled guns from "courtroom security" and gone on shooting sprees killing and wounding many innocents.
Perhaps just one armed citizen in the crowd could have brought a quick resolution to those situations.
Do you believe that the Virginia Tech students were well served by police or do you support the liberal agenda of "gun free zones" in that case as well?
Maybe we should just declare "gun free zones" inside all city limits or anywhere within 30 blocks of a police station, because after all, the police will show up to protect you,,,RIGHT??
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
the good fortune to run into the ones I do like,
and the eyesight to tell the difference.
How's about we just do away with the armed courtroom cops and let the lawful and unlawful citizens freely carry their guns into the courtroom and they can just fight it out?0 -
quote:How's about we just do away with the armed courtroom cops and let the lawful and unlawful citizens freely carry their guns into the courtroom and they can just fight it out?
Your argument has become so ridiculous as to completely defy logic.
My examples may have seemed extreme, but my point was to see just how far you would extend your support of "gun free zones".
I was trying to LOGICALLY discuss the topic at hand, but I see you've abandoned that approach.0 -
Why on earth would you want to cary a gun in a court room?
Some people are so into their right to carry ... man I hope you don't extend that to your right to shoot someone who looks offensive near your car in the parking lot especially if the fellow is me ... or if I am standing nearby getting into my car.
Seems like this right to carry thing can get out of hand ... just my opinion.0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
63 comments