Shipping to Calif...What gives
What Gives, Everywhere I turn I see Dealer after Dealer not selling C&R Pistols and Long guns to Calif C&R Holders. The Law Clearly states in the Reg. Why deny more folks the right to good guns when in fact is perfectly legal. Am I missing something?
Here is the Law:
Handgun Safety, Functionality, and testing Requirements
No handgun may be manufactured or sold to the public in California unless it is of a make
and model that has passed required safety and functionality tests and is approved for
publication in the Department of Justice's official list of handguns certified as safe for sale
in California. Any person who manufactures, imports into the state for sale, sells, gives, or
lends an unsafe handgun is guilty of a misdemeanor. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
The current list of handguns certified as safe for sale in California is available on the
Firearms Division's website at http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/certlist.htm.
Exceptions
The prohibition against manufacturing, importing, selling, or giving an unsafe handgundoes not apply to the following:
The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of any prototype
handgun when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an
independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice to conduct an
independent test to determine whether that handgun qualifies to be added to the
roster of handguns that may be sold in this state. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or authorized agents of an
independent testing laboratory for purposes of determining whether the weapon
meets Department of Justice criteria to be added to the roster of handguns that may
be sold in this state. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the
Code of Federal Regulations. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
The requirements for handguns to pass safety and functionality tests and to be listed in the
Department of Justice's official list of handguns certified as safe for sale in California do
not apply to transactions involving the following:
Private party transfers of handguns occurring through a firearms dealer. or sheriff's
department. (Penal Code ? 12132(a).) Firearm transfers that, subject to any specified exemption, are not required to be
conducted by firearms dealers. (Penal Code ? 12132(b).)
Sales, loans, or transfers of firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section
178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. (Penal Code ?? 12132(c)and (g).) The delivery of a handgun to a licensed firearms dealer for the purposes of
servicing or repairing that firearm and the subsequent return of the handgun by the
licensed firearms dealer to its owner. (Penal Code ? 12132(d) and (e).)
The return of a handgun by a licensed firearms dealer to its owner where that
firearm was initially delivered to that firearms dealer for the purpose of a
consignment sale or as collateral for a pawnbroker loan. (Penal Code ? 12132(f).)
Single-action revolvers with at least a five-cartridge capacity, a barrel length of not
less than three inches, and either: (a) were originally manufactured prior to 1900
and are curios or relics, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of
Federal Regulations; or (b) have an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of
at least seven and one-half inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are
assembled. (Penal Code ? 12133.)
Single-shot pistols with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that have an
overall length of at least 10 ? inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel
are assembled. (Penal Code ? 12133.)
The following pistols sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and by
USA Shooting, the national governing body for international shooting competition
in the United States, and that
I see the Same on Century Arms Web site as well. I will be calling them to Clarify. I do beleive you need a Certificate of Eligibilty COE as well, That is a Yearly background check
Which I have.
So whats the Deal? I am thinking that these Dealers just think if it is not on the approved list it cannot be sold, not realizing it does not apply to C&R weapons.
I have personally called and spoken to a Rep at the DOJ and she confirmed what I am saying.
Here is the Law:
Handgun Safety, Functionality, and testing Requirements
No handgun may be manufactured or sold to the public in California unless it is of a make
and model that has passed required safety and functionality tests and is approved for
publication in the Department of Justice's official list of handguns certified as safe for sale
in California. Any person who manufactures, imports into the state for sale, sells, gives, or
lends an unsafe handgun is guilty of a misdemeanor. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
The current list of handguns certified as safe for sale in California is available on the
Firearms Division's website at http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/certlist.htm.
Exceptions
The prohibition against manufacturing, importing, selling, or giving an unsafe handgundoes not apply to the following:
The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of any prototype
handgun when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an
independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice to conduct an
independent test to determine whether that handgun qualifies to be added to the
roster of handguns that may be sold in this state. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or authorized agents of an
independent testing laboratory for purposes of determining whether the weapon
meets Department of Justice criteria to be added to the roster of handguns that may
be sold in this state. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the
Code of Federal Regulations. (Penal Code ? 12125.)
The requirements for handguns to pass safety and functionality tests and to be listed in the
Department of Justice's official list of handguns certified as safe for sale in California do
not apply to transactions involving the following:
Private party transfers of handguns occurring through a firearms dealer. or sheriff's
department. (Penal Code ? 12132(a).) Firearm transfers that, subject to any specified exemption, are not required to be
conducted by firearms dealers. (Penal Code ? 12132(b).)
Sales, loans, or transfers of firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section
178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. (Penal Code ?? 12132(c)and (g).) The delivery of a handgun to a licensed firearms dealer for the purposes of
servicing or repairing that firearm and the subsequent return of the handgun by the
licensed firearms dealer to its owner. (Penal Code ? 12132(d) and (e).)
The return of a handgun by a licensed firearms dealer to its owner where that
firearm was initially delivered to that firearms dealer for the purpose of a
consignment sale or as collateral for a pawnbroker loan. (Penal Code ? 12132(f).)
Single-action revolvers with at least a five-cartridge capacity, a barrel length of not
less than three inches, and either: (a) were originally manufactured prior to 1900
and are curios or relics, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of
Federal Regulations; or (b) have an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of
at least seven and one-half inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are
assembled. (Penal Code ? 12133.)
Single-shot pistols with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that have an
overall length of at least 10 ? inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel
are assembled. (Penal Code ? 12133.)
The following pistols sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and by
USA Shooting, the national governing body for international shooting competition
in the United States, and that
I see the Same on Century Arms Web site as well. I will be calling them to Clarify. I do beleive you need a Certificate of Eligibilty COE as well, That is a Yearly background check
Which I have.
So whats the Deal? I am thinking that these Dealers just think if it is not on the approved list it cannot be sold, not realizing it does not apply to C&R weapons.
I have personally called and spoken to a Rep at the DOJ and she confirmed what I am saying.
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they just might not want to take any chance of being sued or arrested for something. [:(]
maybe there thinking is better to be safe then sorry.[:(]
just my .020 -
I notice the same thing with ammo dealers, wont sell rifle ammo to any one under 21! Just some rule they made up. 0 -
...Most, if not all gun laws are convoluted. Commie-Fornia has hi-cap restrictions and their very own little "approved" list. The importers you mentioned just do not want to deal with what they precieve as a potential problem.
...Ive sold a few things to folks in Commie-Fornia...and I ALWAYS end up having to REALLY go thru their State laws to make sure Im not getting MY azz in bind; much easier to just not sell to anyone in Commie-Fornia.
..The importers make their money from sales, not in attempting to figure out BS State laws. Several different States are listed by a LOT of different sellers as NO SALES; not just Commie-Fornia.
...The importers you named sell 01 firearms also, most of which are banned in Commie-Fornia.
...Is it right, is it fair...no. Now may be a good time to move. Now may be a good time to learn nothing in this life is "fair". Luck with the "clarification"...[;)]
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We FFL dealers can only ship our wares to the USA, of which Kalifornia is no longer a part. 0 -
The gun laws in CA are so oppressive, numerous, and onerous that many people are overwhelmed trying to keep up with them all. Plus, the ATF has been on a witch hunt since the Clinton Administration trying to catch dealers making mistakes... any mistake no matter how small... to justify pulling their licenses. So you can understand how many of them are timid and don't want to do anything that might draw attention.
I left CA in 1992 when I saw how bad the political climate was becoming. I still have friends who live there and it's awful trying to be a law-abiding gun owner in that state.0 -
Awful?
That's a load.
[:D]0 -
I understand why FFL holders take the path of least resistance, I was a dealer for 10yrs here in the state. But what that attitude
does is make THEM the Winners and US the loosers, This has ALLWAYS been the problem with Gun owners in America...wake up Folks!.
When the Duck and Deer Hunters said he could care less about machine guns and Assault Weapons they got Banned and created a whole new class of Millionaires who owned them.
What the Hunter got was more lands taken away by BLM, No shooting in natioanl Forests etc....The whole attitude that "it does not affect me" is seriously flawed. The Dems have plenty of time to chisel away at our 2nd Amendment rights.
I cannot tell you the droves of folks I used to shoot with at the range who would state "why does anyone need that type of gun"
Well, Now here is the Great State of the peoples Republik of Kalfornia we are limited to 1 gun per month and a slew of other totaly rediculous gun Laws, Sooooo, The way to make all of us who still live here pay is to just ignore us?
I feel like the troops in the early days of the WW2 Pacific Campaign, "No help is coming Fellas....save one for yourselves!"
ALL GUN DEALERS need and should abide by Gun Laws of every State they do business with, Dealers have just taken the attitude that they do only whats easiest....Sorry folks, Not everything is Easy!
Thats why they call it Work.....Anyway, You'll see, Unless the Supreme Court rules in our Favor things are only going to get worse for all of us.
As far as moving out of the state, Right, I am going to give up my Business,Move away from my Parents and Family....Stupid Idea, Stand and Fight Fellas!
Signing off now from the Island of Kalifornia0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
We FFL dealers can only ship our wares to the USA, of which Kalifornia is no longer a part.
This is Exactly what I am talking about.....Need I say More?
You call yourself a Progunner? As Long as it don't bother you Right?0 -
I understand your frustration but please don't start looking for arguments here. You won't last long by insulting nunn. 0 -
Oppressive gun laws were not the only reason I left CA last year--there are many oppressive laws and hurdles for business owners to deal with. The handgun rule they have in that state is ridiculous---the gun makers have to submit each and every version ie: a 2" snubby and a 4" can have the same frame--doesn't matter, you have to submit them both for "safety testing" along with ammo for each gun. That is why you can look at their approved list and see a blued 2" gun but you might not see the 8" model. It's just too expensive to send every gun and all the ammo to deal with it. I work in the exhaust distribution business and it is the same way in california regarding catalytic converters-they force the makers to send in versions of their products that are legal in 49 other states-and the testing costs the makers around $150,000 per test. When OBD2 came out on vehicles they started making the catalytic companies test to the vehicle instead of the series of cat--so you can imagine how expensive that got--in fact a few companies said forget it-let CA do what they want and we will make money somewhere else. So if you live in CA and wonder why your '96 & later car costs $300 and up to fix a catalytic converter, now ya know. CA is very unfriendly to gun owners and business people alike! 0 -
I am not out to insult anyone, I am quite a Civil person..really.
Yer Right though, Frustrated at replies like the one I quoted.
It supports what i am saying here, Thats all, I belong to more Weapons and Military Vehicle Forums then I can count and Do not Join to Flame. Not my style...Again, Apologies to anyone who feels offended.0 -
Many dealers will go above the requirement of the law just to stay on the good side of the DOJ. At my store we have an 11 day waiting period, CA law states that the waiting period is 10 24hr periods, but to make sure that there is NEVER a firearm realeased early we obsearve 11 days. The DOJ loves us for it as it shows that we will do whatever it takes to make sure the law is observed. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ruger41
Oppressive gun laws were not the only reason I left CA last year--there are many oppressive laws and hurdles for business owners to deal with. The handgun rule they have in that state is ridiculous---the gun makers have to submit each and every version ie: a 2" snubby and a 4" can have the same frame--doesn't matter, you have to submit them both for "safety testing" along with ammo for each gun. That is why you can look at their approved list and see a blued 2" gun but you might not see the 8" model. It's just too expensive to send every gun and all the ammo to deal with it. I work in the exhaust distribution business and it is the same way in california regarding catalytic converters-they force the makers to send in versions of their products that are legal in 49 other states-and the testing costs the makers around $150,000 per test. When OBD2 came out on vehicles they started making the catalytic companies test to the vehicle instead of the series of cat--so you can imagine how expensive that got--in fact a few companies said forget it-let CA do what they want and we will make money somewhere else. So if you live in CA and wonder why your '96 & later car costs $300 and up to fix a catalytic converter, now ya know. CA is very unfriendly to gun owners and business people alike!
You are So Right, It's Terrible. I am in Vehicle Restoration so I fully understand as it pertains to Autos is the state. I hae many Friends who own shops, It's like owning a Gun Business with all the regs. Still can't understand why more folks are trying to get in then out though...Minus the Southern Border0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mk 19
Many dealers will go above the requirement of the law just to stay on the good side of the DOJ. At my store we have an 11 day waiting period, CA law states that the waiting period is 10 24hr periods, but to make sure that there is NEVER a firearm realeased early we obsearve 11 days. The DOJ loves us for it as it shows that we will do whatever it takes to make sure the law is observed.
I did the Same....I had to deal with the 21 day wait, 10 was a godsend.
We have 1 dealer locally here now, The largest Dealer in the Bay area "The Traders" in San Leandro Closed...Thay had lots of issues with straw sales, I personally witnessed several.....they were stupid.0 -
What nunn was saying is that much of the rest of the country feels like CA has swung so far to the Left that it no longer seems like part of the United States. He wasn't meaning to belittle you or your situation. He, like the rest of us, sympathizes with your plight.
You live in the East Bay? Man, you ARE behind the Iron Curtain, aren't you?
I recall that Traders closed after a customer was killed when the bullet trap failed in the back room during a test fire. Now, SF and Oakland city governments pretty much bans gun shops.0 -
Understood.....I was hoping it was more tounge and cheek. 0 -
Hello
I am your GB psychic.
I see that you are into Hummers, metal working tools and hardware (electrical, plumbing etc etc).
Does gun mounting systems for Hummer mean anything to you?
You live in a land of the no balls. See you people have no balls to stand up for yourselves and rid your country of the politicians that keep chipping away at your rights. Nope. Just like lambs being lead to slaughter. You do not have the sense to open your eyes to what is being taken away from you until it is to late to do anything about it..
You want to whine to the world that you can not get what you want in a firearm? Then whine even more when the rest of us tell you that you are stupid.
Blame yourselves..
For you are the very ones that put the people that screwed you with the 90 grit and no Vasoline in office. And allowed them to stay..0 -
You appear to be cowering behind your keyboard...Wimp
I have forgotten more then you know.....You are the STUPID one .....I am done with this thread. If all you can do is come out and start a flame war it just again proves my Point.0 -
you have no idea how I voted, You do not even know my party affiliation...again, You make false claims about US people, Don't lump me in with them people who voted for the people who passed these laws in my state....You Know NOTHING about Me.
you are Ignorant...You have Laws in your state, Some I am sure you do not agree with, Right? SO Do I blame you for that? I would never...you on the other hand seem to equate that with living in the state that somehow I had something to do with the laws passed...Sorry there is just not enough of me to go around and sway the elections in my favor, even though i try.0 -
LesWVa- You are too sharp with your criticism and it is misdirected. The GB member you blame for CA's woes likely didn't support any of the elected Socialists who now ruin that state. It was the Leftist population concentrated along the coastline of CA that elected the Bozos in Sacramento.
It's not fair to insult all Californians. Unfortunately there is a Liberal, anti-gun majority of voters in CA that impose their will on the rest of the state.
Your greeting to a new member leaves much to be desired. Just because you disapprove of CA laws don't blame everyone who lives there. Many of them do not favor such Leftist policies but are outnumbered.
BTW- Since you accuse others of inaction, just what have you done to preserve the Second Amendment? We could all use some tips.0 -
I for one Hate this state, I will not retire Here, Once my Parents have passed I am out! I have Obligations to them and my family right now, Obligations I plan to keep even if it means I suffer. I have a Disabled brother who will need my assistance after they are gone and he will be going with me. My new state will be Machinegun and CCW friendly state...Saxon, From your reply you obviously know what I am up against. 0 -
I, for one, will ship guns to the PRK. I have and I will. I figure it is up to the buyer to know if the gun is legal in his state. Then, I ship it to a FFL dealer in Kalifornia. He will know if the gun is legal there, and he has to make the decision whether or not to transfer it. If he can't or won't transfer it, he can send it back, and I will refund the buyer's money, less shipping and a re-stocking fee. BTW, the last FFL I got from a PRK dealer had paperwork with it indicating that he was charging a smooth $100 for transferring the gun. OUCH! 0 -
There are so many fewer FFLs in CA now that they can charge pretty much what they want for transfers... if they do them at all which most won't. 0 -
Saxon you ask.
"BTW- Since you accuse others of inaction, just what have you done to preserve the Second Amendment? We could all use some tips."
Refuse to support the NRA.
Fought and voted against a few that were running for office here that wanted to "make the state safer for all".
Strongly supported and voted for candidates that supported Sunday Hunting.
They got into office. We now have Sunday hunting in most parts of the state. And those candidates that supported Sunday Hunting struck down a proposed bill that would force schools to remain open during the first week of Deer Rifle season. Yes My kids can go deer hunting the first week of rifle season. For schools here close that week. Does your public schools close for any part of any hunting seasons?
Strongly supported and voted for a county official that supported a Public Firing Range be built using tax dollars that were being wasted on another useless project. We got our firing range.
Nothing to do with firearms. But the towns Mayor brought it on himself to ban the use of ATV's within city limits. He along with two of the three city council members already know will not have a job come next city election.
The majority here do not wear steel toed boots. You step on our toes and we will stomp back.0 -
Glad to hear you're politically active. It sounds like our new friend from CA has also been busy. Unfortunately, he is in the minority and hasn't enjoyed the same level of success as have you.
Let's not blame him for being out-voted by the Socialist majority.
Keep up the good work.
Well, except for "avoiding the NRA" part. I have to respectively disagree with you on that one.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 98hummerwagon
you have no idea how I voted, You do not even know my party affiliation...again, You make false claims about US people, Don't lump me in with them people who voted for the people who passed these laws in my state....
+1
<----in CA.[;)][^]0 -
The reason some gun dealers don't want to do business in California is California's laws are so convoluted it is difficult to do business there without running afoul of at least one of them.
Even though it is possible to do, to some it just isn't worth the time and trouble to figure out what is legal and what isn't (time and trouble equal money). A person in the gun business needs to make a profit.
Just one example:
Smith & Wesson Models 66 through 66-5 are not legal in California. Smith & Wesson Models 66-6 and 66-7 are legal. Smith & Wesson Models 60 through 60-13, 60-16 and 60-17 are not legal in California. Smith & Wesson Models 60-14, 60-15 and 60-18 are legal.
These are some of the easier thing to find out if legal.
If I were a gun dealer, I think I would pass on California business.0 -
What Gives, Everywhere I turn I see Dealer after Dealer not selling C&R Pistols and Long guns to Calif C&R Holders. The Law Clearly states in the Reg. Why deny more folks the right to good guns when in fact is perfectly legal. Am I missing something?
Here is the Law:
98hummer
I have stayed with this thread since initial post.
Food for thought:
FFL holders face serious charges if they do not comply with set guidelines.
Each state is different.
If you have read one of the ATF publications (e.g. 5300.5), very, very........ difficult to memorize, and they are not updated as often as one might think.
Perhaps some internet sellers have developed a "status quo" attitude, on selling to Ca residents.
I do not believe it reflects any negativity on GB sellers in a general sense.
Perhaps, it is the "type" of gun in your particular interest, where you see limitation.
I don't know what business you are in, but if you could go to prison for missing a "loophole" in the laws of another state......
What would you do?
These folks ARE good people with the same "common" interest, or none of us would reading this thread.
Just my .020 -
My issue is with C&R Pistols and Rifles only, As I had high lighted in red. M1911A1 Remington Rand, Ithaca, Garand and Carbines etc.
FFL to C&R mainly....Most of the listing state FFL only and or no Claif Sales. I kindly provide the Printed Law, Link to DOJ and a Phone number for them to get clarification.
Most think the gun has to be on the approved list, Not so for C&R Pistols...Rifles have no so called List.
Even the Local Dealer in my town has no clue nor how to process the sale. I advised him he just receives the Gun in and Logs it like a Normal Dealer to Dealer and then I pick it up and he logs my C&R license and keeps a Copy. He also has some paperwork to do for the state as well, But all Perfeclty legal and spelled out in the.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 98hummerwagon
My issue is with C&R Pistols and Rifles only, As I had high lighted in red. M1911A1 Remington Rand, Ithaca, Garand and Carbines etc.
FFL to C&R mainly....Most of the listing state FFL only and or no Claif Sales. I kindly provide the Printed Law, Link to DOJ and a Phone number for them to get clarification.
Most think the gun has to be on the approved list, Not so for C&R Pistols...Rifles have no so called List.
Even the Local Dealer in my town has no clue nor how to process the sale. I advised him he just receives the Gun in and Logs it like a Normal Dealer to Dealer and then I pick it up and he logs my C&R license and keeps a Copy. He also has some paperwork to do for the state as well, But all Perfeclty legal and spelled out in the.
Your absolutely right.... Its not a hard concept. C&R long guns can go directly to a C&R in Calif, I have bought numerous.
C&R handguns must go throught an 01 and then to the C&R holder. The dealers who will not ship a C&R gun here too damn lazy to take the time to read the law. It takes a couple minutes.
The ATF and DOJ have these dealers shaking in their boots. If you going to be a dealer, then you should know the law and abide by it.
I get tired of the "PRK" "Commiefornia" "Kalif" references to California. Yeh, we have a liberal government here, and no LesWVa, get it thru your thick skull, we didnt put them there, we just got out voted. I always vote for conservatives, but sometimes there just aren't enough of us.0
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