Best 9mm round for stopping bad guys
I just bought a Ruger P85MII on the auction board. I am retired Military (1July07) and hated the 9mm as a side arm. Hated the loss of the 45. Anyway, the gun was new in box and never fired and I purchased as the only bid on the weapon for $295.00. Reading some reviews on this weapon, it will apparently digest all commercial produced rounds without problems.
For personal/home defense, what is the best 9mm round? I own a S&W 686 4 inch and a Browning High Power chambered in 40 cal.
The 9mm was just a fluke, but now that I have it, what is the best man stopper commercially produced?
Thanks for any help
For personal/home defense, what is the best 9mm round? I own a S&W 686 4 inch and a Browning High Power chambered in 40 cal.
The 9mm was just a fluke, but now that I have it, what is the best man stopper commercially produced?
Thanks for any help
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While most you guys love your big .45's recoil and accuracy comes to mind. I have seen accuracy from shooters doing the ol' 45 and it sucks. One has to hit a target in order to take it out. Close close range may be ok with the 45 but out past 25yd it seems to be a joke to the average shooter. The 9 has the advantage of shooting flatter with more shots being fired in the same amount of time. I shot a 45 not too long ago with a member here. They couldn't hit a target at 25 yds. I could ring a bullesye 1/2 of the time. Pretty sad, I don't want a gun that won't do accuracy. Ever shot your 45 at 50 yd. I mean a plain ol colt or springfield you name it unmodified gun. I doubt you can hit a man size target consistantly. Here is my unaccurate no good 9mm. I would not be afraid to have a shootout at 50+ yds if needed. Note the velocities with Plus P's.. pretty close to the .357 round. Don't mess with the .357 or downgrade it. The sky might fall.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/FN Competition Model.htm0 -
...select...you failed to mention the BRAND of 45...[:D]...it does, make a BIG difference, inferior parts/workmanship...IMHO, and NO OFFENSE "you know who"! [:D] ..but we are talking accuracy here..and the gun I "think" your speaking of lacks a lot to be desired in the accuracy department.
... I could care less what anyone else uses, I prefer bigger holes with the energy LEFT inside the threat...not passing thru the threat, carrying it's energy on; which the 9mm IS notorious for doing.
...How about bench groups w/a .45 of 2"?..not that easy (not that easy w/any handgun/cal...though a 10mm shoots flatter than Kansas), NOR is it impossible with a nice .45. Some "custom" guns carry a 2" @ 50yd. gaurantee.
...Only the Bull "50%" of the time?? You need more parctice.[:D]
...I have no idea what .45 shooters your hanging with, but accuracy out to, or past 25yds with a .45 (a GOOD one) is not a problem at all.
I suspose some 9's could do the same...but to say that at 50yds...
quote: I doubt you can hit a man size target consistantly.
...is a very innaccurate statement. I wish I was closer...we could have a little friendly competition...with an American made .45...[:D]
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quote:Originally posted by select-fire
....I don't want a gun that won't do accuracy. Ever shot your 45 at 50 yd. I mean a plain ol colt or springfield you name it unmodified gun. I doubt you can hit a man size target consistantly. Here is my unaccurate no good 9mm. I would not be afraid to have a shootout at 50+ yds if needed. Note the velocities with Plus P's.. pretty close to the .357 round. Don't mess with the .357 or downgrade it. The sky might fall.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/FN Competition Model.htm
I have to disagree. I have a dead-stock Ballester-Molina that I lost the front sight off of. For fun, I've been firing it as-is. At 25 yards slow fire, the old gal put's 'em all in the center mass. Every time. During rapid aquisition and fire at 25 feet, that gun is just as deadly.
At 50 yards, I can consistently hit a man-sized target with my Auto Ord, no sweat.
And I'm an average shooter.0 -
quote:Originally posted by COLT
...select...you failed to mention the BRAND of 45...[:D]...it does, make a BIG difference, inferior parts/workmanship...IMHO, and NO OFFENSE "you know who"! [:D] ..but we are talking accuracy here..and the gun I "think" your speaking of lacks a lot to be desired in the accuracy department.
... I could care less what anyone else uses, I prefer bigger holes with the energy LEFT inside the threat...not passing thru the threat, carrying it's energy on; which the 9mm IS notorious for doing.
...How about bench groups w/a .45 of 2"?..not that easy (not that easy w/any handgun/cal...though a 10mm shoots flatter than Kansas), NOR is it impossible with a nice .45. Some "custom" guns carry a 2" @ 50yd. gaurantee.
...Only the Bull "50%" of the time?? You need more parctice.[:D]
...I have no idea what .45 shooters your hanging with, but accuracy out to, or past 25yds with a .45 (a GOOD one) is not a problem at all.
I suspose some 9's could do the same...but to say that at 50yds...
quote: I doubt you can hit a man size target consistantly.
...is a very innaccurate statement. I wish I was closer...we could have a little friendly competition...with an American made .45...[:D]
I misprinted at 25yd 1/2 the time... should have read 50 yd 1/2 the time. I also watched a Police officer shoot mine 75+ yd at clay birds. Tore them up the first time he shot the gun. NO way his glock 40 was going to do it.0 -
you can carry more 9mm. [;)] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
you can carry more 9mm. [;)]
And you will need them.0 -
If we are speaking of defensive situations, my opinion is that, if your assailant is more than 25 feet(or so) away from you, you should be running away, using a shotgun, or using a rifle.
25+ yard accuracy in a sidearm only is significant when punching
paper - which almost never shoots back.
As for 9MM vs .45 vs (anything else), if you shoot him in the eye or empty your cylinder into his guts, I GUARANTEE you that the fight will stop, regardless of the caliber you hit him with.
As the good Colonel has stated, sights on a defensive combat sidearm are nearly superfluous.
And you can take that to the bank (of JMB).
Doug0 -
Hold on now...as far as emptying your cylinder into his guts and ending the fight...not always. Two cases in point: Dallas Police Dept. shoots suspect high on PCP 38, yes, thirty-eight, times with 9mm ball ammo. Only after a 12 ga. OO buck round to the head did the fight end. Shortly after, Dallas P.D went to hollow points. Second case in point: South Carolina State Trooper empties his S&W 686 .357 mag. into armed suspect from no more than 10 feet away, all rounds hitting center mass. Suspect fired two rounds from .22 derringer. Trooper dies after .22 round passes under his arm, strikes back of vest and bounces back into Trooper, entering his heart. One dead trooper, bad guy survives. Yes, shot placement is crucial, but so is terminal ballistics. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by COLT
wuchakie quote:I really hate it when someone asks for advice on a cartridge for a new gun they just got and instead of answering the question people have to chime in with boasts about their beloved 45 and how nothing the poster can buy for his 9mm will ever make a sufficient cartridge. We know you love the 45. If that's all you have to contribute then please find a 9mm vs 45acp thread to go post on.
The original poster didn't ask if you thought he should buy a 45, he asked what 9mm ammunition people can recommend as good for carry.
In my book the 45acp devotees have recently edged out the Glock fanboys for the title of "Most Consistently Annoying Group Posting on Gun Forums Today".
...Know what I hate wachakie? I really hate it when someone asks for advice on a cartridge for a new gun they just got and instead of answering the question nubie people have to chime in with absolutely NO answer to the question at all, Nada, Zilch!
...And how nothing the poster can ask/say will pry an answer of any sort from the mouth of the nube! We know you love to attempt to argue/flame longtime members WITHOUT adding an answer to the thread at all in an attempt to show your prowess at attempting to belittle members in good standing...who are just having a good time.
...If that's all you have to contribute then please find a "no answer required" thread to go post on.
...The original poster didn't ask if you thought he should recieve NO answer at all, OR an attack on members, but, you saw fit to do just that; no answer to his question, and an attack on members instead.
...In my book the "no-answering/want to argue/want to only attack member" devotees have recently edged out the intelligent, mostly VERY helpful members for the title of "Most Consistently Annoying Group Posting on GunBroker Today".
...Try giving an answer to the original posters question new guy, BEFORE spouting off at members who DO give answers and have a little light hearted fun too. IF you have been around long enough you would know that the 45 vs 9mm, semi vs revolver, which 1911 is best,...are ALL topice that have been beaten to a pulp here...and there are ALWAYS people who will "lighten-up" said subjects with some mild ragging...it's called a "guy thing" among men.
...Similar to when you (well, maybe not you per say) and some buddies are out hunting and one whacks the top of their head half off on a low hanging limb and the rest of his buddies rag and laugh, and in no uncertain terms telling him how DUMB he was by doing that..no matter they all love each other...just a "guy thing", unless your one of the "new metro type" PC guys??
...Try not reading ANY of the posts that may upset your sensibilities, you will not need as many meds that way; and if you must post in a thread...YOU might try giving an answer to the original posters question(s) instead of a NO answer response that attacks and attempts to belittle members...[;)]
Before jumping on me for not giving an answer you should check the thread. If you had taken the time to do so you would have seen that the 10th response to the original post was made by me and I did provide an answer to the poster's question.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Hold on now...as far as emptying your cylinder into his guts and ending the fight...not always. Two cases in point: Dallas Police Dept. shoots suspect high on PCP 38, yes, thirty-eight, times with 9mm ball ammo. Only after a 12 ga. OO buck round to the head did the fight end. Shortly after, Dallas P.D went to hollow points. Second case in point: South Carolina State Trooper empties his S&W 686 .357 mag. into armed suspect from no more than 10 feet away, all rounds hitting center mass. Suspect fired two rounds from .22 derringer. Trooper dies after .22 round passes under his arm, strikes back of vest and bounces back into Trooper, entering his heart. One dead trooper, bad guy survives. Yes, shot placement is crucial, but so is terminal ballistics.
Something else to consider..
I was watching one of those "dash-board cam" Cop shows a few months ago. The cop and the person he had pulled over got into a tussle. The bad guy grabbed for the cop's gun. The cop shot him in the guts with a 45 acp. Then the cop then had to tell the guy to get on the ground. The guy was drunk, I'm sure, but he wasn't all hopped up on meth or PCP (if memory serves me). The point is. Even the vaunted 45acp won't always put a guy down. Anybody who's ever been in a firefight will tell you that it ain't like the movies. All of us keyboard commandoes (yeah, I'm including myself) who talk about shot placement and terminal ballistics have to remember one thing... Unless you've had to shoot someone, it's all just range time, man. It's all just range time.0 -
And paper targets don't shoot back. I have not had a baptism under fire, yes, I have drawn my weapon and I have come very, very close to ending a life. And, I have been on the other end, having had a pistol pointed at me. In all instances, I reverted back to my training. You fight like you train, so train hard. The average shooter won't train shooting under stress, shooting at moving targets, and going through fast paced shoot-don't-shoot scenarios. There is alot more to defensive shooting than picking the pistol and ammo. You have to train as if your life depends on it. It may very well. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by wuchak
I really hate it when someone asks for advice on a cartridge for a new gun they just got and instead of answering the question people have to chime in with boasts about their beloved 45 and how nothing the poster can buy for his 9mm will ever make a sufficient cartridge. We know you love the 45. If that's all you have to contribute then please find a 9mm vs 45acp thread to go post on.
The original poster didn't ask if you thought he should buy a 45, he asked what 9mm ammunition people can recommend as good for carry.
In my book the 45acp devotees have recently edged out the Glock fanboys for the title of "Most Consistently Annoying Group Posting on Gun Forums Today".
I really wish I cold respond to that post with my true feelings, but I have enough forum members that think I'm an azz now. We'll just agree to dis-agree. How's that?0 -
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
And paper targets don't shoot back. I have not had a baptism under fire, yes, I have drawn my weapon and I have come very, very close to ending a life. And, I have been on the other end, having had a pistol pointed at me. In all instances, I reverted back to my training. You fight like you train, so train hard. The average shooter won't train shooting under stress, shooting at moving targets, and going through fast paced shoot-don't-shoot scenarios. There is alot more to defensive shooting than picking the pistol and ammo. You have to train as if your life depends on it. It may very well.
Well, present company excepted on my last post.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make.0 -
I just like the feel of the .357 Sig. 0 -
Wartiger-not to be to critical but if you are talking about the Tpr Coates(sp?) shooting, I heard that Coates was carrying 38's in his 357 (I thought it was a S&W Mod 66) and I don't believe he hit the suspect with all of them.
Also, I never heard the bullet bounced back from the vest, it was just a shot into an unprotected area that was toward the gunman while the trooper was firing at him. At least that's what I was told when I saw the movie.
I have fired quite a few shots into an old vest and none have ever "bounced back". All were always caught in the fibers of the vest unless they went right through.0 -
quote:Civil Rights
Junior Member
332 Posts
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 1:53:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dano
quote:
Originally posted by drjew
quote:
Originally posted by dano
Any premium self-defense 9mm round will serve you nicely.
As others might have mentioned, it's not so much the caliber of the round, as it is shot placement.
BTW...absolutely nothing wrong with a 9mm round for self-defense. I've used um for years, and I have no complaints at all.
How many bad guys have you had to stop with it?
More than I care to share with you (or others) about.
Can you share just one ? Personally I seriously doubt you have shot one person with a 9mm let alone TWO people which would thus qualify your statement of "more".
Once again- Nothing intelligent to add, such as a personal expierence such as your own, but you again post just to critique someone whom you know nothing about.
You are a worthless troll.0 -
This is what I carry in all my Ruger Niners. 0 -
Trooper Mark Coates was shot in the armpit. No coverage there. 0 -
I saw the video and our instructor explained it to us in training as I related here. If I was told wrong, I apologize. But I later saw the interview with the suspect and I am almost positve he was hit with all rounds. Again, if I was mis-informed, I stand corrected, but it doesn't change the over-all events or the out-come. Tragic any way you look at it. 0 -
wartiger-no problem. I was only trying to clear up the info. 0 -
I like the trusty Fiocchi 9mm rimfire in #6 shot fired from my Bernardelli semi auto shotgun!!
I bet no one expected to have that cartridge represented in this discussion!!!0 -
I totally disagree about the 9mm being a fluke. It was designed to lay down defensive fire against adversaries in combat situations using FMJ ammo, because most combatants are wearing heavy clothing and possibly body armor; both which adversely effect hollow point bullet penetration. If the big powerful bullet thinking was correct, why did we down grade from .30 caliber slow firing heavy hitting weapons to lighter faster firing ones? The reason was because smaller ammo means higher rates of accurate fire and the ability to carry more rounds per trooper. Sure if we only had single shot pistols and every one would stand still I would go for the biggest bullet I could find. But in real world firefights (I am ex-military and a retired police Officer) I understand all pistols are weak when it comes to the infamous one shot stop, which by the way very rarely happens. If it did why are we trained to double tap and continue firing until the threat is neutralized? Handgun fights come down to who ever can put the most bullets, in the least amount of time into the vital areas of their opponents before they do it to you. I have carried many services weapons in my career but the 9mm because of its mild recoil has been the one I have shot the best scores with in timed combat shooting drills. I can shoot faster and with more accuracy which means I will put more holes into you faster than you can into me. Once upon a time bullets had to move fast to expand but now day's bullet technology has come a long way. Look at Speer/Gold Dot they make bullets that reliable expand from snub nosed barrels moving a lot slower than typical 9mm velocities. In fact I believe and so do a lot of police departments the current evolution of the 147 gr bullet with a quality manufactured hollow point round, coupled with the 9mm higher rates of fire are as good a self defense weapon is there is. 0 -
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0
This was posted in another thread. Don't member which one. Pretty interesting.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=292031
found it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Hold on now...as far as emptying your cylinder into his guts and ending the fight...not always. Two cases in point: Dallas Police Dept. shoots suspect high on PCP 38, yes, thirty-eight, times with 9mm ball ammo. Only after a 12 ga. OO buck round to the head did the fight end. Shortly after, Dallas P.D went to hollow points. Second case in point: South Carolina State Trooper empties his S&W 686 .357 mag. into armed suspect from no more than 10 feet away, all rounds hitting center mass. Suspect fired two rounds from .22 derringer. Trooper dies after .22 round passes under his arm, strikes back of vest and bounces back into Trooper, entering his heart. One dead trooper, bad guy survives. Yes, shot placement is crucial, but so is terminal ballistics.
So is luck, and you can't buy that in a store.
In some cases a person will drop with one shot of a .22, in others a .44 magnum isn't enough. A human being is fully capable of functioning for over a minute with both lungs knocked out AND a perforating heart wound.
The fact is there is no "magic bullet", and *NO* one-handed firearm is ever going to pack enough energy to definitely down someone in a short period of time. Any handgun is by itself already a compromise that trades off power for portability and concealability.
(Incidentally ballistically ONE 12-gauge OO buckshot round is roughly equivalent to getting hit with NINE .38 specials SIMULTANEOUSLY. The likelihood of a critical injury is proportionate to the SQUARE of the number of individual wounds. . .meaning two hits are actually FOUR times as good as one, etc).0 -
I have had 9mm with speer gold dot, corbon, golden saber, winchester silver tip black talon not sure if one is better than the other but remember this most of the time you get what you pay for in ammo and everything else. a box of 5o rounds for $10.00 is not going to perform the same as premium ammo. 0
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