Religion question.
I am not trying to rile people up or start a flame war.
I am non-religious but grew up with a Christian background and left it.
My question is......
There was nothing, then God created everything. Why??????
Was he bored? What is the reasoning given (if any) for creating anything? He knows everything, so before he created it/us he knew most of us would end up in hell, so why bother?
Is there a reason given in the Bible for creation? Boredom? Loneliness?
I am non-religious but grew up with a Christian background and left it.
My question is......
There was nothing, then God created everything. Why??????
Was he bored? What is the reasoning given (if any) for creating anything? He knows everything, so before he created it/us he knew most of us would end up in hell, so why bother?
Is there a reason given in the Bible for creation? Boredom? Loneliness?
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If we are made in his image, is he a morphodite?
Yes, he's omnipotent. Duh!
so no matter what we are told that doesn't make sense, it must be true somehow because this god can do anything. sorry, we only believe in things that make sense.
If God is so perfect, why is he a jealous god?
Answered elsewhere.
jealousy goes along with all the other things that are supposed to be bad, such as greed, hate, etc. and according to your god, people are not supposed to be jealous (= envious), hateful or greedy. so how is it that this god can be jealous, when a) we're not supposed to be, and b) he's supposed to be perfect? also, this god does hate some things. so that's another contradiction.
Does another god have more souls?
Probably the false ones. Would you want your soul to go to a golden calf when you die, or even worse?
us unbelievers don't think it's going anywhere. or that we even have a "soul" as you claim it to be. so we would say that's a silly answer.
If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
... I've learned everything happens for a reason.
okay, what's the reason? If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
Why the hell make a man, shouldn't he have made a Mrs. God?
Already answered.
not answered here. the question remiains.
Wouldn't you think his houses would be in a "Lightening Bolt Free" area?
Are you serious? Lightning bolts are fascinating. Imagine being able to look down into the heart of a tornado from up there!
well, why do greivous things happen to even the most devout worshippers? why is it their houses still get hit by lightning, their churches burn down, they get cancer, hit by a car, run over by a bus, fall off a cliff, evil deeds done to them by evil people, why does it turn out that they enjoy not one shred of protection from their god? ...as if their god doesn't exist?A better question would be, is the bible open to subjective interpretation? I say yes to that one.
you're dodging the question.
If he really loves us, why is it all the real fun stuff is a sin?
Actually, all the "fun stuff" can really hurt you in the long run. The number of fun things out there that are not sin dwarf the amount of "fun stuff" that are sin.
not really, the concept of "sin" doesn't have much to do with healthy activities. ...I suppose, if you think all the real fun stuff is a "sin" (healthy or not) then simply you are predisposed to "sinning". myself, I don't see how it's difficult to have fun without doing evil things.
I guess over thousands of years of human evolution the three major religions are just the best answer. The bible does say there are many rooms in heaven, I like to interpret that as the rooms are symbols for the different religions.
how can you say that when time after time, your bible says there is only 1 true god, he's jealous of people who worship other "nonexistent" gods, and in the old testament god worshippers were commanded to kill anybody who worshipped other gods. either you're wrong, or the bible is wrong. but here I'd say both are wrong.
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? As they were made and not born of woman, there would not have been an umbilical cord for fetal nurishment from a mother..
Well there would be a hole from where the rib was taken out of Adam, maybe? Why interpret the bible so literally if it's based on faith? A creative mind can create answers to either discredit or strengthen one's faith in the bible, but it's up to each individual. In such a scientific world, there is yet so much we do not understand it's impossible to prove or disprove the bible without faith in either proving or disproving.
you're switching back and forth three different ways now:
- taking the bible literally
- saying we can't take the bible literally
- saying we have to just beleive the bible. (whatever it's saying)
If there were only two people made by this god, where did all the other races come from? Without outside influence in DNA and gene transfer there would be just one race of people in the world. GEE could it have been evolution?
When Cain killed Abel, he left and started a city called Enoch filled with people. So there were people around at that point. How they got there, the bible doesn't say. I doubt there was incest, or else we'd all look the same. Back in the old testament, there were other gods floating out there that had existed for thousands of years before it was ever written. Nonetheless, my Christian God is the one who prevailed - I wonder why that is
No. the explanation of how one man could "start a city filled with people" by himself doesn't work, and it still doesn't answer the question of the apparent racial diversity that people have. and you go on to say that there were other gods besides your god, even when your bible says there is and was ever only 1 god, the one that created everything. that is contrary to what almost every other christian says. you're just making things up.
IF god made everything, animals by the millions, plants by the billion, why stop at TWO people.?
Maybe he made more and just spoiled Adam and Eve by letting them live in the garden. Life's not fair.
doesn't answer the question
If there were only two people and they had children, where did the children find mates? Do you think there was incest?
See above.
If God was all knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would fall for the temptation that he laid in front of them, so this God Tricked them.. Sort of like telling a child about the cookie jar , telling it not to get into it, and then leaving the room with the lid off the jar.. cause you know the kid is going to grab a cookie..
What abour free will? Maybe life means more when you only last 0-120 years in your body instead of forever. I can only guess what God was thinking philosiphically.
was that supposed to be an answer?
If god was all knowing and has this master plan then god supports abortion, murder, and all manner of evil, after all its his plan..
or if you say he is not responsible for evil then he must condon it as there is never anything done to prevent it..
There's plenty done to prevent it, by people who work with God's help. Men have free will, and if they want to pillage and rape freely they have to answer for it one day. He loves us so much, though, he gave usa way towards forgiveness. You see mothers at the trials of their serial killer sons, and most don't turn away from them, heartbroken as they are. So why question God's love for his children when you can see something as simple as a mother's love for her child.
your answer does not address the question. the question remains.
Protecting the helpless infants is our responsibility as a civilizatoin, not God's. The innocent come to him eventually anyway. Why would he interfere and negate the power of faith? God loves children for their innocence just like most of the rest of us do. ...
how about all the prayers to this god that are asking to protect these babies? are they going unanswered? is this god ignoring the pleas? are you saying he would rather let them suffer and die, so he could have them?
if we would see that as cruel, and you would say that would be a just thing to do on yor god's part because "heaven" is so much better anyways, then why would god bother helping out adults or anybody else for that matter? just like the babies, they end up in the same place anyways, so is he thinking what's the difference, just let them suffer at one time, die at another and they'll be allright "for the rest of eternity" so it's all good?
if that would be the case, then you will find that your god has promised you nothing until you get to "heaven". yet you would pray to your god for everything else while you're stil here on earth and say that praying gets you what you want.
The bible is very historically accurate. It is the greatest history book of the ancient world ever written. Ask any historian.
there are also the torah, the koran, the rig veda, and other holy books of other major religions, none of which are legitimate "history" books. there are plenty others that are more accurate and useful. "any" historian will not tell you that the bible is the greatest history book. I think most will tell you that it is worthless as a chronicle of history but has some value for that period of time. what you said is merely wishful thinking.
and your bible becomes especially useless when you sporadically say it can't be taken literally, or that it can mean anything at all.
Religious people dont want to "Go there" because they have no answers to the questions" except "It says so in the bible"
I don't say because the bible says so. This is a philosiphical discussion to me and I can only represent what I believe. I think it's better to believe in something then nothing or blindly believe anything. Too bad your personal experiences haven't led you to question more of the why and how we're here. Or maybe it has, and just led you to a different conclusion.
us unbelievers have asked that question, before we didn't have the means to answer it, now we do with the results of the work of scientists. so, why don't you want to "go there"? you say it's a philosophical discussion, all the other answers you have given so far are sort of philosophical, it must be true that you don't want to fully engage your philosophy, you just use it when you think it works (we still don't think it does) or at other times abandon it entirely. because you know you're wrong. it must be true that you don't want to "go there".
I consider myself a Christian, and I'm suspicious that they are the one and the same. It just makes sense. The path to salvation is through God, one religion or the other. There are many rooms in heaven, so says the bible. And the bible is the number one authority on heaven - that's why I have to reference it.
sure! muslims aren't really praying to allah, jews aren't really praying to jehova, buddhists aren't really praying to buddha, and pagans aren't really sacrificing goats to balthazaaar or whoever. they're all doing the wrong things to worship your god, but they're really worshipping him and they don't know it, right? and you are supposed to go and kill them for worshipping the wrong god, so says the bible. uh huh.
I don't know why you're posting this mountain of ancient world rules from the old testament when clearly the new testament overrides all that stuff. And now YOU are referencing the bible as well.
it is to show that your god has commanded his worshippers to kill people in the past, and to show that it contradicts what you say about him being all full of love and all that. you would say that was in the past and he's different now, fine! we weren't talking about now, we were in fact talking about the old testament god. do you deny that your old testament god wanted people dead? and does that not contradict the idea of an old testament god who supposedly loved everybody?
btw, yes we are allowed to repeat the words of your contradictions, from you the bible or anywhere else.
If you understand that the bible is subject to interpretation, these contradictions are obsolete. For example, what is God's face? A literal face, or the face of his wrath, or what? We can argue for days over the bible but the fact that we are gives it more power then if you simply kept silent.
no, it gives the bible more power obviously if we keep silent and don't question what it says. if we examine it, we do in fact find it to be rife with contradiction and nonsensical illogic. so fortunately those of us who haven't unquestioningly come under the grip of bible worshippers without thinking for themselves first, should be allowed to ask questions, and they will find plenty of things to refute and your bible and the god that goes with it will be rejected as false.0 -
I appreciate all the answers and other questions on this thread.
From what I have pieced together from the handful of answers directed towards my original question.
God wanted to be worshipped. He already had Angels that were designed to worship him, but he wanted even more. So he created man with "free will". Man could worship him and go to Heaven or decide to not worship him and spend an eternity in Hell and torture.
To me that is not really free will. Does free will always have such severe penalties for not doing what was really wanted? Also it seems that God is very vain. If you are the greatest being etc., why do you need followers telling you it everyday unless you need your ego stroked?
As for others that said stuff in response to my question, It's all right there in the Bible but I don't want to preach etc., can you just summarize into a sentence why God created us?0 -
Since this thread has turned into an all-out religion thread.
Why did certain books of the Bible get omitted. I don't have proof, but i'm sure others can find you something. I saw a TV show that talked about many books of the Bible that were omitted when the Church pieced it together.0 -
rcrxs... if you're a true MP fan you'll get this... "Because she looks like a witch!"
"She turned me into a newt!"
"A newt?"
"I got better...."
"Burn her anyways!!!"[:D]
And my final thought on this subject, summed up with the help of Michael Palin & John Cleese:
[img][/img]
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quote:Originally posted by sav99
quote by Trfox:
"Looks to me like most modern Christians are not following God's instructions found in their Bible.
Why are they able to ignore clear instructions in the Bible yet still call themselves good Christians? Anybody know?"
O.T. vs. N.T.
The New Covenant being the dividing line.
Who can call himself a good Christian? Not I.
What your statement describes is nothing more than a man-made structure. It appears in the Old testement that God was an angry, vengeful, murderous God. But in the New testement he changes into a mild, loving and concilatory God.
What I have decribed above is the profile and actions of a mere mortal. It is not the profile and actions of a supreme being who is all knowing, all powerful and perfect. If God was indeed all those things, there would never be any need for him to change one iota.
So, at best God is not a great, powerful or as perfect as many claim he is.
If you can agree with my statment, then we can have agreement about at least some aspects of God.0 -
Just awoke and fed my cat.[:D]
Anyway, I read the postings since I went to bed. Very interesting stuff. But, Ladies und Gentlemen:
...tread softly. Whatever side of the debate you are on, if you pursue with too much vigour, you will shut-off the other side. Not good. Once you realize you cannot change the [religion/athiesm] belief, or you get those on the other side of this debate to start questioning themselves (frightning to some-shatters their roots), they'll shut down rather than confront any new possibilities posed.
It's typical human nature at work. Not a condemnation.
I always question myself. The key here is questioning. I will never cease to question myself. If one questions him/herself, then they're good to go in questioning their surroundings. Both physical and metaphysical. I'm OK with it. And if you all were, this thread wouldn't exist. Best, Joe0 -
Why?
I always liked the answer James Weldon Johnson gave in his poem, The Creation;
"And god stepped out on space, and said, 'I'm lonely. I'm gonna make me a world......"0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
What I have decribed above is the profile and actions of a mere mortal. It is not the profile and actions of a supreme being who is all knowing, all powerful and perfect. If God was indeed all those things, there would never be any need for him to change one iota.maybe it's really a little short guy behind a curtain running a machine.0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
Whatever side of the debate you are on...
What debate? Faith is not a rejoinder to reason; and reason is not a rejoinder to faith. There is really nothing to talk about.
The sum of all religious discussion:
Non-believer: "2+2=4."
Believer: "Exactly my point."
zzz-zzz-zzz0 -
BZZZTT!! wrong answer!
true, "faith is not a rejoinder to reason". but, reason should be able to be used to disprove an unwarranted faith.
the problem is, the religiosos refuse to listen. that's what it all comes down to. they can say their part to us, and we can show them how they're wrong, but they won't listen. we can say our part to them, and they can't show us how we're wrong but still refuse to accept the truth.
so the argument goes on and on and on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
the problem is, the religiosos refuse to listen.
Yes, of course. What could I possibly have been thinking?
zzz-zzz-zzz0 -
I guess... same sentence different words. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
If we are made in his image, is he a morphodite?
Yes, he's omnipotent. Duh!
so no matter what we are told that doesn't make sense, it must be true somehow because this god can do anything. sorry, we only believe in things that make sense.
Well it makes sense to me that an all powerful God could take whatever form he wanted. It also makes sense that a being responsible for creation would be all powerful within the compass of his creatino - the universe and everything in it.
If God is so perfect, why is he a jealous god?
Answered elsewhere.
jealousy goes along with all the other things that are supposed to be bad, such as greed, hate, etc. and according to your god, people are not supposed to be jealous (= envious), hateful or greedy. so how is it that this god can be jealous, when a) we're not supposed to be, and b) he's supposed to be perfect? also, this god does hate some things. so that's another contradiction.
You're taking all the old testament stuff and trying to reconcile it with the new testament. To do that, you have to realize that the new testament overrides the old. I don't see why our God can't hate some things, like divorce, evil, and people choosing to be blind to the power of faith. Further, it only makes sense that God is perfect when you look at the science right down to the way neutrons, protons, and electrons interact with each to form human beings and the known universe. An atheist would say the existence of the universe is random, and I think that's prepostorous.
Does another god have more souls?
Probably the false ones. Would you want your soul to go to a golden calf when you die, or even worse?
us unbelievers don't think it's going anywhere. or that we even have a "soul" as you claim it to be. so we would say that's a silly answer.
You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a soul scientifically, so why bother drag that into the debate if all you have and want to see is fact.
If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
... I've learned everything happens for a reason.
okay, what's the reason? If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
So you being the pessimist that you are think that Timmy is better off dead than alive with no legs? Once again, a subjective viewpoint
Why the hell make a man, shouldn't he have made a Mrs. God?
Already answered.
not answered here. the question remiains.
The answer requires philosophical thought. Different viewpoints presented here are the desire for companionship, a sense of humor, and a myriad of others. Take your pick. For someone who deals only with fact, a lot of philosophy infiltrates(unwittingly) into most of your questions.
Wouldn't you think his houses would be in a "Lightening Bolt Free" area?
Are you serious? Lightning bolts are fascinating. Imagine being able to look down into the heart of a tornado from up there!
well, why do greivous things happen to even the most devout worshippers? why is it their houses still get hit by lightning, their churches burn down, they get cancer, hit by a car, run over by a bus, fall off a cliff, evil deeds done to them by evil people, why does it turn out that they enjoy not one shred of protection from their god? ...as if their god doesn't exist?
Our promise is for the next life, not this one. Suffering is an inherent part both of life and religion and being Christian(or any religion) doesn't shelter you from that. That should be obvious.
A better question would be, is the bible open to subjective interpretation? I say yes to that one.
you're dodging the question.
I thought you were being sarcastic and referring to the skies as heaven and having lightning. See above for an answer.
If he really loves us, why is it all the real fun stuff is a sin?
Actually, all the "fun stuff" can really hurt you in the long run. The number of fun I see that you then simply you are predisposed to "sinning". myself, I don't see how it's difficult to have fun without doing evil things.
I think he was referring to sexual things as "fun stuff." Besides that, I don't have a problem with what your saying. But in an anarchist society I believe atheism would lead to the fall of civilization as what would your motivation to not do evil be? Men are not inherently good, just open up a newpaper and you can see that.
I guess over thousands of years of human evolution the three major religions are just the best answer. The bible does say there are many rooms in heaven, I like to interpret that as the rooms are symbols for the different religions.
how can you say that when time after time, your bible says there is only 1 true god, he's jealous of people who worship other "nonexistent" gods, and in the old testament god worshippers were commanded to kill anybody who worshipped other gods. either you're wrong, or the bible is wrong. but here I'd say both are wrong.
As a free thinker, I'm not bound to take the bible, especially the old testament, as always literal. The bible is an intricate art peice, a poem, and a historical tool. Once again, the new testament overrides the old testament - a fundamental part of being a Christian. Why in the world would you keep citing old testament rules as proof that God doesn't exist? Where are your facts for your disbelief? You have just as much faith in not believing as I have in believing, so you're in the same boat as I am with a lot more to lose if you're wrong.
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? As they were made and not born of woman, there would not have been an umbilical cord for fetal nurishment from a mother..
Well there would be a hole from where the rib was taken out of Adam, maybe? Why interpret the bible so literally if it's based on faith? A creative mind can create answers to either discredit or strengthen one's faith in the bible, but it's up to each individual. In such a scientific world, there is yet so much we do not understand it's impossible to prove or disprove the bible without faith in either proving or disproving.
you're switching back and forth three different ways now:
- taking the bible literally
- saying we can't take the bible literally
- saying we have to just beleive the bible. (whatever it's saying)
I'm not taking the bible literally, the answer's purpose is to show how rhetorical the adam-eve question is. I'm not trying to dictate to you what to believe, just express what I believe and how the bible fits in as the only key I know of to life after death.
If there were only two people made by this god, where did all the other races come from? Without outside influence in DNA and gene transfer there would be just one race of people in the world. GEE could it have been evolution?
When Cain killed Abel, he left and started a city called Enoch filled with people. So there were people around at that point. How they got there, the bible doesn't say. I doubt there was incest, or else we'd all look the same. Back in the old testament, there were other gods floating out there that had existed for thousands of years before it was ever written. Nonetheless, my Christian God is the one who prevailed - I wonder why that is
No. the explanation of how one man could "start a city filled with people" by himself doesn't work, and it still doesn't answer the question of the apparent racial diversity that people have. and you go on to say that there were other gods besides your god, even when your bible says there is and was ever only 1 god, the one that created everything. that is contrary to what almost every other christian says. you're just making things up.
Ok, well by that argument, I counter you are the one "making things up." I studied Hinduism and Judaism at Emory University and I believe that gives me more of a perspective on what I believe. I have thought as deeply about this as you, and just because our opinions differ doesn't give you any kind of authority to declare right or wrong. I don't speak for all Christians, I can only speak for myself. You're using an overliteral interpretation of the old testament again and again to make the same point which is just plain ridiculous considering what I've posted about subjective interpretation.
IF god made everything, animals by the millions, plants by the billion, why stop at TWO people.?
Maybe he made more and just spoiled Adam and Eve by letting them live in the garden. Life's not fair.
doesn't answer the question
The question is not a valid one, considering most Christians don't take the story of creation literally. You can find evidence of this in the US with Christian's lobbying for the teaching of intelligent design in high school alongside the teaching of evolution. Believing we randomly appeared out of nothingness is far more ridiculous then believing in an omniscient omnipotent creator. /green]
If there were only two people and they had children, where did the children find mates? Do you think there was incest?
Why bother revisiting the literal interpretation flaw in your argument once again?
If God was all knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would fall for the temptation that he laid in front of them, so this God Tricked them.. Sort of like telling a child about the cookie jar , telling it not to get into it, and then leaving the room with the lid off the jar.. cause you know the kid is going to grab a cookie..
What abour free will? Maybe life means more when you only last 0-120 years in your body instead of forever. I can only guess what God was thinking philosiphically.
was that supposed to be an answer?
Not only is your question one of subjective philosophy, you answered your own question. A parent might leave the jar open hoping the child wouldn't fail is an obvious counter.
If god was all knowing and has this master plan then god supports abortion, murder, and all manner of evil, after all its his plan..
or if you say he is not responsible for evil then he must condon it as there is never anything done to prevent it..
There's plenty done to prevent it, by people who work with God's help. Men have free will, and if they want to pillage and rape freely they have to answer for it one day. He loves us so much, though, he gave usa way towards forgiveness. You see mothers at the trials of their serial killer sons, and most don't turn away from them, heartbroken as they are. So why question God's love for his children when you can see something as simple as a mother's love for her child.
Well, sorry for being preachy. The bottom line is that free will results in these atrocities. That should be obvious.
Protecting the helpless infants is our responsibility as a civilizatoin, not God's. The innocent come to him eventually anyway. Why would he interfere and negate the power of faith? God loves children for their innocence just like most of the rest of us do. ...
how about all the prayers to this god that are asking to protect these babies? are they going unanswered? is this god ignoring the pleas? are you saying he would rather let them suffer and die, so he could have them?
Is the best you can do is ask more questions? Isn't it clear there are no prayers, if only the abuser knows what he is doing? And yes, I would rather suffer and die and be had then live a good life and perish forever.
if we would see that as cruel, and you would say that would be a just thing to do on yor god's part because "heaven" is so much better anyways, then why would god bother helping out adults or anybody else for that matter? just like the babies, they end up in the same place anyways, so is he thinking what's the difference, just let them suffer at one time, die at another and they'll be allright "for the rest of eternity" so it's all good?
There are totally different applications between adults and children - the bible covers it. Look it up since you like to cite contradictions in it so much.
if that would be the case, then you will find that your god has promised you nothing until you get to "heaven". yet you would pray to your god for everything else while you're stil here on earth and say that praying gets you what you want.
Prayer is a symbol of faith, and faith is very powerful. Do you need examples? I pray not
The bible is very historically accurate. It is the greatest history book of the ancient world ever written. Ask any historian.
there are also the torah, the koran, the rig veda, and other holy books of other major religions, none of which are legitimate "history" books. there are plenty others that are more accurate and useful. "any" historian will not tell you that the bible is the greatest history book. I think most will tell you that it is worthless as a chronicle of history but has some value for that period of time. what you said is merely wishful thinking.
and your bible becomes especially useless when you sporadically say it can't be taken literally, or that it can mean anything at all.
Well, without citing any historians there can be no resolutino. Right now, I'm just too lazy too try and prove most historians believe the bible a great history book to someone who will still disbelieve. Try googling great history book in quotes and bible.
Religious people dont want to "Go there" because they have no answers to the questions" except "It says so in the bible"
I don't say because the bible says so. This is a philosiphical discussion to me and I can only represent what I believe. I think it's better to believe in something then nothing or blindly believe anything. Too bad your personal experiences haven't led you to question more of the why and how we're here. Or maybe it has, and just led you to a different conclusion.
us unbelievers have asked that question, before we didn't have the means to answer it, now we do with the results of the work of scientists. so, why don't you want to "go there"? you say it's a philosophical discussion, all the other answers you have given so far are sort of philosophical, it must be true that you don't want to fully engage your philosophy, you just use it when you think it works (we still don't think it does) or at other times abandon it entirely. because you know you're wrong. it must be true that you don't want to "go there".
You are blind in your belief that theory of evolution isw a law of science. It is not - look it up my friend. The big bang, the most accepted belief on the creation of the universe, is still just a theory. All of us have asked that question, and all of us have come to our personal and individual conclusions. If you are a blind follower of atheism, you are a sheep. As far as your judgement on how I engage my philosophy, you're just wrong.
I consider myself a Christian, and I'm suspicious that they are the one and the same. It just makes sense. The path to salvation is through God, one religion or the other. There are many rooms in heaven, so says the bible. And the bible is the number one authority on heaven - that's why I have to reference it.
sure! muslims aren't really praying to allah, jews aren't really praying to jehova, buddhists aren't really praying to buddha, and pagans aren't really sacrificing goats to balthazaaar or whoever. they're all doing the wrong things to worship your god, but they're really worshipping him and they don't know it, right? and you are supposed to go and kill them for worshipping the wrong god, so says the bible. uh huh.
I hope you're not as lacking creativity when it comes to solving real life problems.
I don't know why you're posting this mountain of ancient world rules from the old testament when clearly the new testament overrides all that stuff. And now YOU are referencing the bible as well.
it is to show that your god has commanded his worshippers to kill people in the past, and to show that it contradicts what you say about him being all full of love and all that. you would say that was in the past and he's different now, fine! we weren't talking about now, we were in fact talking about the old testament god. do you deny that your old testament god wanted people dead? and does that not contradict the idea of an old testament god who supposedly loved everybody?
btw, yes we are allowed to repeat the words of your contradictions, from you the bible or anywhere else.
Well, I believe I've already reconciled them to you.
[green]If you understand that the bible is subject to interpretation, these contradictions are obsolete. For example, what is God's face? A literal face, or the face of his wrath, or what? We can argue for days over the bible but the fact that we are gives it more power then if you simply kept silent.
no, it gives the bible more power obviously if we keep silent and don't question what it says. if we examine it, we do in fact find it to be rife with contradiction and nonsensical illogic. so fortunately those of us who haven't unquestioningly come under the grip of bible worshippers without thinking for themselves first, should be allowed to ask questions, and they will find plenty of things to refute and your bible and the god that goes with it will be rejected as false.[/red]
[green]Well, I guess you just see things differently. I just answer the questions with answers rather than more questions.0 -
If we are made in his image, is he a morphodite?
Yes, he's omnipotent. Duh!
so no matter what we are told that doesn't make sense, it must be true somehow because this god can do anything. sorry, we only believe in things that make sense.
Well it makes sense to me that an all powerful God could take whatever form he wanted. It also makes sense that a being responsible for creation would be all powerful within the compass of his creatino - the universe and everything in it.
whatever you want your god to be, right?
If God is so perfect, why is he a jealous god?
Answered elsewhere.
jealousy goes along with all the other things that are supposed to be bad, such as greed, hate, etc. and according to your god, people are not supposed to be jealous (= envious), hateful or greedy. so how is it that this god can be jealous, when a) we're not supposed to be, and b) he's supposed to be perfect? also, this god does hate some things. so that's another contradiction.
You're taking all the old testament stuff and trying to reconcile it with the new testament. To do that, you have to realize that the new testament overrides the old. I don't see why our God can't hate some things, like divorce, evil, and people choosing to be blind to the power of faith. Further, it only makes sense that God is perfect when you look at the science right down to the way neutrons, protons, and electrons interact with each to form human beings and the known universe. An atheist would say the existence of the universe is random, and I think that's prepostorous.
I'm not taking the old testament stuff and trying to reconcile it with the new testament. that was a contradiction that stands by itself. anyways, the whole book is full of contradiction, why try to make sense out of it? the hate of your god refers to hating people, i.e. worshippers of other gods, people who touch his ark, etc. etc. he said to kill them, and some were supposedly killed by him personally. it does not make sense that "god is perfect" when you consider the laws of physics and the construction of matter and material things, because god does not exist, there is no god, and your god doesn't have anything to do with it. and as far as "an athiest would say the universe is random" and you think that's preposterous, obviously you do not practice scientific method. you believe what you discover and prove as true, not what you want to believe. if it is found to be so, then it is. anyways I wouldn't put it past you to say "it's random and it still works, isn't god fantastic!" because you don't know what you're talking about and you'll say anything.
Does another god have more souls?
Probably the false ones. Would you want your soul to go to a golden calf when you die, or even worse?
us unbelievers don't think it's going anywhere. or that we even have a "soul" as you claim it to be. so we would say that's a silly answer.
You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a soul scientifically, so why bother drag that into the debate if all you have and want to see is fact.
that's right, we can't prove or disprove "a soul". we can't prove the existence of one, just like we can't prove the existence of any "god", so why bother trying? no evidence, no phenomenon, nothing to examine. as far as it matters, it doens't exist. anyways, you would claim that people have souls irregardless. sorry, I can't beleive it or your methodology.
If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
... I've learned everything happens for a reason.
okay, what's the reason? If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
So you being the pessimist that you are think that Timmy is better off dead than alive with no legs? Once again, a subjective viewpoint
did I say that? you're making things up.
Why the hell make a man, shouldn't he have made a Mrs. God?
Already answered.
not answered here. the question remiains.
The answer requires philosophical thought. Different viewpoints presented here are the desire for companionship, a sense of humor, and a myriad of others. Take your pick. For someone who deals only with fact, a lot of philosophy infiltrates(unwittingly) into most of your questions.
well what's the answer then, Plato?
Wouldn't you think his houses would be in a "Lightening Bolt Free" area?
Are you serious? Lightning bolts are fascinating. Imagine being able to look down into the heart of a tornado from up there!
well, why do greivous things happen to even the most devout worshippers? why is it their houses still get hit by lightning, their churches burn down, they get cancer, hit by a car, run over by a bus, fall off a cliff, evil deeds done to them by evil people, why does it turn out that they enjoy not one shred of protection from their god? ...as if their god doesn't exist?
Our promise is for the next life, not this one. Suffering is an inherent part both of life and religion and being Christian(or any religion) doesn't shelter you from that. That should be obvious.
ya well why do you pray for things in this life then? why do so many christians say "prayer works"? in actuality, they might as well be spinning a buddhist prayer wheel. the results are random, there is no god.
A better question would be, is the bible open to subjective interpretation? I say yes to that one.
you're dodging the question.
I thought you were being sarcastic and referring to the skies as heaven and having lightning. See above for an answer.
If he really loves us, why is it all the real fun stuff is a sin?
Actually, all the "fun stuff" can really hurt you in the long run. The number of fun things out there that are not sin dwarf the amount of "fun stuff" that are sin.
not really, the concept of "sin" doesn't have much to do with healthy activities. ...I suppose, if you think all the real fun stuff is a "sin" (healthy or not) then simply you are predisposed to "sinning". myself, I don't see how it's difficult to have fun without doing evil things.
I think he was referring to sexual things as "fun stuff." Besides that, I don't have a problem with what your saying. But in an anarchist society I believe atheism would lead to the fall of civilization as what would your motivation to not do evil be? Men are not inherently good, just open up a newpaper and you can see that.
???
I guess over thousands of years of human evolution the three major religions are just the best answer. The bible does say there are many rooms in heaven, I like to interpret that as the rooms are symbols for the different religions.
how can you say that when time after time, your bible says there is only 1 true god, he's jealous of people who worship other "nonexistent" gods, and in the old testament god worshippers were commanded to kill anybody who worshipped other gods. either you're wrong, or the bible is wrong. but here I'd say both are wrong.
As a free thinker, I'm not bound to take the bible, especially the old testament, as always literal. The bible is an intricate art peice, a poem, and a historical tool. Once again, the new testament overrides the old testament - a fundamental part of being a Christian. Why in the world would you keep citing old testament rules as proof that God doesn't exist? Where are your facts for your disbelief? You have just as much faith in not believing as I have in believing, so you're in the same boat as I am with a lot more to lose if you're wrong.
of course! so it can mean whatever you want. otherwise it would be too incoherent! "The bible is an intricate art peice, a poem, and a historical tool." give me a break. it's a fairy tale. and once again, your bible says there is only 1 god, and all the worshippers of other gods during the old testament were to be killed and go to hell, do your rooms account for them? or how about new testament, people who worship other gods are still going to hell right alongside unbelievers, what about them? -I refer to all things about this false god, to prove it's false, not just the old testament. as far as facts, you haven't asked me yet what the facts are that disprove the existence of your god. I don't worry about "being wrong", that's a silly proposition. I don't worry about santa claus not being real either, or not answering those sweepstake things I keep getting in the mail in case I "realy won" and I'm missing out. ya right. I'm not going to hold my breath. and I'm not in the same boat as you are. I have nothing to worry about.
btw, you need to bone up on your "free thinking" because your arguments are not persuasive in the least.
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? As they were made and not born of woman, there would not have been an umbilical cord for fetal nurishment from a mother..
Well there would be a hole from where the rib was taken out of Adam, maybe? Why interpret the bible so literally if it's based on faith? A creative mind can create answers to either discredit or strengthen one's faith in the bible, but it's up to each individual. In such a scientific world, there is yet so much we do not understand it's impossible to prove or disprove the bible without faith in either proving or disproving.
you're switching back and forth three different ways now:
- taking the bible literally
- saying we can't take the bible literally
- saying we have to just beleive the bible. (whatever it's saying)
I'm not taking the bible literally, the answer's purpose is to show how rhetorical the adam-eve question is. I'm not trying to dictate to you what to believe, just express what I believe and how the bible fits in as the only key I know of to life after death. ]
and it doesn't jive. how can you believe this bible when it doesn't add up? and you missed my point, that you are inconsistent.
If there were only two people made by this god, where did all the other races come from? Without outside influence in DNA and gene transfer there would be just one race of people in the world. GEE could it have been evolution?
When Cain killed Abel, he left and started a city called Enoch filled with people. So there were people around at that point. How they got there, the bible doesn't say. I doubt there was incest, or else we'd all look the same. Back in the old testament, there were other gods floating out there that had existed for thousands of years before it was ever written. Nonetheless, my Christian God is the one who prevailed - I wonder why that is
No. the explanation of how one man could "start a city filled with people" by himself doesn't work, and it still doesn't answer the question of the apparent racial diversity that people have. and you go on to say that there were other gods besides your god, even when your bible says there is and was ever only 1 god, the one that created everything. that is contrary to what almost every other christian says. you're just making things up.
Ok, well by that argument, I counter you are the one "making things up." I studied Hinduism and Judaism at Emory University and I believe that gives me more of a perspective on what I believe. I have thought as deeply about this as you, and just because our opinions differ doesn't give you any kind of authority to declare right or wrong. I don't speak for all Christians, I can only speak for myself. You're using an overliteral interpretation of the old testament again and again to make the same point which is just plain ridiculous considering what I've posted about subjective interpretation.
right. other christians say there are other gods, uh huh. if you can't speak for other christians, and what you believe is different, then you don't believe what they do, therefore you aren't following your god's commands. you brought up that old testament story, so tell me, where DID these unaccounted people come from that, according to the fairy tale, made up the city that this Cain guy went to? and does it matter to you that your old testament doesn't make sense, or do you not want to explain it?
IF god made everything, animals by the millions, plants by the billion, why stop at TWO people.?
Maybe he made more and just spoiled Adam and Eve by letting them live in the garden. Life's not fair.
doesn't answer the question
The question is not a valid one, considering most Christians don't take the story of creation literally. You can find evidence of this in the US with Christian's lobbying for the teaching of intelligent design in high school alongside the teaching of evolution. Believing we randomly appeared out of nothingness is far more ridiculous then believing in an omniscient omnipotent creator.
not at all. we didn't "randomly appear out of nothingness". it's all explained from the big bang to present day, are you ignoring that? the explanation is there. it's far more plausible than "some god made everything", and about every part of the scientific explanation is at odds with the theory of creation, so which one is true? one or the other! since the scientific theory is built on fact, and all the facts have been proven except the speculation on the early stages of the universe, the answer should be obvious which one is right.
the universe was not created in 6 days. it takes millions of years just for a solar system to form.
animals were not created. mammals evolved from lizards, which evolved from fish, which evolved from invertebrates, which evolved from simple multicellular organisms, which evolved from single celled organisms, which evolved from prototypical life forms without cell walls, which evolved -yes evolved- from self-replicating chemicals, which occurred in the primordial ocean that had lots of amino acids in it.
and that didn't just happen either. under those conditions, it does happen given enough time, and there was plenty of that. that's how it works, on this world and others like it, wherever they may be.
If there were only two people and they had children, where did the children find mates? Do you think there was incest?
Why bother revisiting the literal interpretation flaw in your argument once again?
make up your mind, are you supposed to interpret your bible literally all the time, some of the time, or whenever you feel like it?
If God was all knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would fall for the temptation that he laid in front of them, so this God Tricked them.. Sort of like telling a child about the cookie jar , telling it not to get into it, and then leaving the room with the lid off the jar.. cause you know the kid is going to grab a cookie..
What abour free will? Maybe life means more when you only last 0-120 years in your body instead of forever. I can only guess what God was thinking philosiphically.
was that supposed to be an answer?
Not only is your question one of subjective philosophy, you answered your own question. A parent might leave the jar open hoping the child wouldn't fail is an obvious counter.
there is no god.
If god was all knowing and has this master plan then god supports abortion, murder, and all manner of evil, after all its his plan..
or if you say he is not responsible for evil then he must condon it as there is never anything done to prevent it..
There's plenty done to prevent it, by people who work with God's help. Men have free will, and if they want to pillage and rape freely they have to answer for it one day. He loves us so much, though, he gave usa way towards forgiveness. You see mothers at the trials of their serial killer sons, and most don't turn away from them, heartbroken as they are. So why question God's love for his children when you can see something as simple as a mother's love for her child.
Well, sorry for being preachy. The bottom line is that free will results in these atrocities. That should be obvious.
why doesn't your god do something about it? you pray to him and say that prayer works. why are these things happening?
Protecting the helpless infants is our responsibility as a civilizatoin, not God's. The innocent come to him eventually anyway. Why would he interfere and negate the power of faith? God loves children for their innocence just like most of the rest of us do. ...
how about all the prayers to this god that are asking to protect these babies? are they going unanswered? is this god ignoring the pleas? are you saying he would rather let them suffer and die, so he could have them?
Is the best you can do is ask more questions? Isn't it clear there are no prayers, if only the abuser knows what he is doing? And yes, I would rather suffer and die and be had then live a good life and perish forever.
you didn't answer the question.
if we would see that as cruel, and you would say that would be a just thing to do on yor god's part because "heaven" is so much better anyways, then why would god bother helping out adults or anybody else for that matter? just like the babies, they end up in the same place anyways, so is he thinking what's the difference, just let them suffer at one time, die at another and they'll be allright "for the rest of eternity" so it's all good?
There are totally different applications between adults and children - the bible covers it. Look it up since you like to cite contradictions in it so much.
if that would be the case, then you will find that your god has promised you nothing until you get to "heaven". yet you would pray to your god for everything else while you're stil here on earth and say that praying gets you what you want.
Prayer is a symbol of faith, and faith is very powerful. Do you need examples? I pray not
faith in your god is worthless. people have died waiting.
The bible is very historically accurate. It is the greatest history book of the ancient world ever written. Ask any historian.
there are also the torah, the koran, the rig veda, and other holy books of other major religions, none of which are legitimate "history" books. there are plenty others that are more accurate and useful. "any" historian will not tell you that the bible is the greatest history book. I think most will tell you that it is worthless as a chronicle of history but has some value for that period of time. what you said is merely wishful thinking.
and your bible becomes especially useless when you sporadically say it can't be taken literally, or that it can mean anything at all.
Well, without citing any historians there can be no resolutino. Right now, I'm just too lazy too try and prove most historians believe the bible a great history book to someone who will still disbelieve. Try googling great history book in quotes and bible.
I did. then click "edit", "find on this page", and type in the word BIBLE. you get "text not found". ...you were saying?
Religious people dont want to "Go there" because they have no answers to the questions" except "It says so in the bible"
I don't say because the bible says so. This is a philosiphical discussion to me and I can only represent what I believe. I think it's better to believe in something then nothing or blindly believe anything. Too bad your personal experiences haven't led you to question more of the why and how we're here. Or maybe it has, and just led you to a different conclusion.
us unbelievers have asked that question, before we didn't have the means to answer it, now we do with the results of the work of scientists. so, why don't you want to "go there"? you say it's a philosophical discussion, all the other answers you have given so far are sort of philosophical, it must be true that you don't want to fully engage your philosophy, you just use it when you think it works (we still don't think it does) or at other times abandon it entirely. because you know you're wrong. it must be true that you don't want to "go there".
You are blind in your belief that theory of evolution isw a law of science. It is not - look it up my friend. The big bang, the most accepted belief on the creation of the universe, is still just a theory. All of us have asked that question, and all of us have come to our personal and individual conclusions. If you are a blind follower of atheism, you are a sheep. As far as your judgement on how I engage my philosophy, you're just wrong.
it is a "law of science". it did happen, it does happen right now, and it will continue happening. you are a blind follower of this religion you follow, and you would tell me to also follow it blindly, would you not? I believe only in proven facts, so I refuse to beleive what you yourself say can't be proven, yet you tell me I follow my beliefs blindly? you don't even know what words are coming out of your mouth.
and regarding "how you engage your philosophy", apparently it's quite selective.
I consider myself a Christian, and I'm suspicious that they are the one and the same. It just makes sense. The path to salvation is through God, one religion or the other. There are many rooms in heaven, so says the bible. And the bible is the number one authority on heaven - that's why I have to reference it.
sure! muslims aren't really praying to allah, jews aren't really praying to jehova, buddhists aren't really praying to buddha, and pagans aren't really sacrificing goats to balthazaaar or whoever. they're all doing the wrong things to worship your god, but they're really worshipping him and they don't know it, right? and you are supposed to go and kill them for worshipping the wrong god, so says the bible. uh huh.
I hope you're not as lacking creativity when it comes to solving real life problems.
did someone else just log on for you and start typing stuff?
I don't know why you're posting this mountain of ancient world rules from the old testament when clearly the new testament overrides all that stuff. And now YOU are referencing the bible as well.
it is to show that your god has commanded his worshippers to kill people in the past, and to show that it contradicts what you say about him being all full of love and all that. you would say that was in the past and he's different now, fine! we weren't talking about now, we were in fact talking about the old testament god. do you deny that your old testament god wanted people dead? and does that not contradict the idea of an old testament god who supposedly loved everybody?
btw, yes we are allowed to repeat the words of your contradictions, from you the bible or anywhere else.
Well, I believe I've already reconciled them to you.
that's nice.
If you understand that the bible is subject to interpretation, these contradictions are obsolete. For example, what is God's face? A literal face, or the face of his wrath, or what? We can argue for days over the bible but the fact that we are gives it more power then if you simply kept silent.
no, it gives the bible more power obviously if we keep silent and don't question what it says. if we examine it, we do in fact find it to be rife with contradiction and nonsensical illogic. so fortunately those of us who haven't unquestioningly come under the grip of bible worshippers without thinking for themselves first, should be allowed to ask questions, and they will find plenty of things to refute and your bible and the god that goes with it will be rejected as false.
Well, I guess you just see things differently. I just answer the questions with answers rather than more questions.
your answers make more questions than they solve. duh.
oh, btw, your bible is false and your god isn't there.0 -
If we are made in his image, is he a morphodite?
Yes, he's omnipotent. Duh!
so no matter what we are told that doesn't make sense, it must be true somehow because this god can do anything. sorry, we only believe in things that make sense.
Well it makes sense to me that an all powerful God could take whatever form he wanted. It also makes sense that a being responsible for creation would be all powerful within the compass of his creatino - the universe and everything in it.
whatever you want your god to be, right?
Why is it so difficult to grasp that the Creator is all powerful in relation to His createes when He is so high above them. Hmmm...hasn't someone mentioned an ant farm? Or do I have to spell out for you?
If God is so perfect, why is he a jealous god?
Answered elsewhere.
jealousy goes along with all the other things that are supposed to be bad, such as greed, hate, etc. and according to your god, people are not supposed to be jealous (= envious), hateful or greedy. so how is it that this god can be jealous, when a) we're not supposed to be, and b) he's supposed to be perfect? also, this god does hate some things. so that's another contradiction.
You're taking all the old testament stuff and trying to reconcile it with the new testament. To do that, you have to realize that the new testament overrides the old. I don't see why our God can't hate some things, like divorce, evil, and people choosing to be blind to the power of faith. Further, it only makes sense that God is perfect when you look at the science right down to the way neutrons, protons, and electrons interact with each to form human beings and the known universe. An atheist would say the existence of the universe is random, and I think that's prepostorous.
I'm not taking the old testament stuff and trying to reconcile it with the new testament. that was a contradiction that stands by itself. anyways, the whole book is full of contradiction, why try to make sense out of it? the hate of your god refers to hating people, i.e. worshippers of other gods, people who touch his ark, etc. etc. he said to kill them, and some were supposedly killed by him personally. it does not make sense that "god is perfect" when you consider the laws of physics and the construction of matter and material things, because god does not exist, there is no god, and your god doesn't have anything to do with it. and as far as "an athiest would say the universe is random" and you think that's preposterous, obviously you do not practice scientific method. you believe what you discover and prove as true, not what you want to believe. if it is found to be so, then it is. anyways I wouldn't put it past you to say "it's random and it still works, isn't god fantastic!" because you don't know what you're talking about and you'll say anything.
You're not even debating anymore, just if this and if that. You this and you that. Scientific method has a limited role in a philosiphical debate. But I can go there all the way having studied and worked in the field of biology. Besides, I think I have more of a grasp on science in general considering you think theory and law are one and the same. Further, you've been trying to shift this thing away from whether or not God exists to is the bible true or not(because you're clearly biased there and no one has disproven the bible either).
Does another god have more souls?
Probably the false ones. Would you want your soul to go to a golden calf when you die, or even worse?
us unbelievers don't think it's going anywhere. or that we even have a "soul" as you claim it to be. so we would say that's a silly answer.
You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a soul scientifically, so why bother drag that into the debate if all you have and want to see is fact.
that's right, we can't prove or disprove "a soul". we can't prove the existence of one, just like we can't prove the existence of any "god", so why bother trying? no evidence, no phenomenon, nothing to examine. as far as it matters, it doens't exist. anyways, you would claim that people have souls irregardless. sorry, I can't beleive it or your methodology.
There is no methodology, just philosophy and an open mind. I bother because I want to understand the origin of life as well as why, how, and what for I exist. I don't see how you can be just content to exist without questioning life and the universe.
If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
... I've learned everything happens for a reason.
okay, what's the reason? If he loves all his children the same, how come little Timmy was born with no legs?
So you being the pessimist that you are think that Timmy is better off dead than alive with no legs? Once again, a subjective viewpoint
did I say that? you're making things up.
No, you didn't. You don't have to. You're making it a bad thing that Timmy was born with no legs. I say that he's blessed to be alive. I'm sorry that when I use your post to draw a logical conclusion as to what you're getting at you think I'm making things up. If I'm wrong, try being more specific.
Why the hell make a man, shouldn't he have made a Mrs. God?
Already answered.
not answered here. the question remiains.
The answer requires philosophical thought. Different viewpoints presented here are the desire for companionship, a sense of humor, and a myriad of others. Take your pick. For someone who deals only with fact, a lot of philosophy infiltrates(unwittingly) into most of your questions.
well what's the answer then, Plato?
God has no need to reporoduce, simple as that.
Wouldn't you think his houses would be in a "Lightening Bolt Free" area?
Are you serious? Lightning bolts are fascinating. Imagine being able to look down into the heart of a tornado from up there!
well, why do greivous things happen to even the most devout worshippers? why is it their houses still get hit by lightning, their churches burn down, they get cancer, hit by a car, run over by a bus, fall off a cliff, evil deeds done to them by evil people, why does it turn out that they enjoy not one shred of protection from their god? ...as if their god doesn't exist?
Our promise is for the next life, not this one. Suffering is an inherent part both of life and religion and being Christian(or any religion) doesn't shelter you from that. That should be obvious.
ya well why do you pray for things in this life then? why do so many christians say "prayer works"? in actuality, they might as well be spinning a buddhist prayer wheel. the results are random, there is no god.
A better question would be, is the bible open to subjective interpretation? I say yes to that one.
you're dodging the question.
I thought you were being sarcastic and referring to the skies as heaven and having lightning. See above for an answer.
If he really loves us, why is it all the real fun stuff is a sin?
Actually, all the "fun stuff" can really hurt you in the long run. The number of fun things out there that are not sin dwarf the amount of "fun stuff" that are sin.
not really, the concept of "sin" doesn't have much to do with healthy activities. ...I suppose, if you think all the real fun stuff is a "sin" (healthy or not) then simply you are predisposed to "sinning". myself, I don't see how it's difficult to have fun without doing evil things.
I think he was referring to sexual things as "fun stuff." Besides that, I don't have a problem with what your saying. But in an anarchist society I believe atheism would lead to the fall of civilization as what would your motivation to not do evil be? Men are not inherently good, just open up a newpaper and you can see that.
???
Ok, you don't understand. Try watching the devil's advocate with Satan played by Al Pacino. He tries and seduce his son by proposing God made all the rules in opposite of what is natural and enjoyable to do. I can't be any more clear: atheism is amoral because an atheists morals deteriorate in proportion to the deterioration of the morals of his peers as a matter of survival.
I guess over thousands of years of human evolution the three major religions are just the best answer. The bible does say there are many rooms in heaven, I like to interpret that as the rooms are symbols for the different religions.
how can you say that when time after time, your bible says there is only 1 true god, he's jealous of people who worship other "nonexistent" gods, and in the old testament god worshippers were commanded to kill anybody who worshipped other gods. either you're wrong, or the bible is wrong. but here I'd say both are wrong.
As a free thinker, I'm not bound to take the bible, especially the old testament, as always literal. The bible is an intricate art peice, a poem, and a historical tool. Once again, the new testament overrides the old testament - a fundamental part of being a Christian. Why in the world would you keep citing old testament rules as proof that God doesn't exist? Where are your facts for your disbelief? You have just as much faith in not believing as I have in believing, so you're in the same boat as I am with a lot more to lose if you're wrong.
of course! so it can mean whatever you want. otherwise it would be too incoherent! "The bible is an intricate art peice, a poem, and a historical tool." give me a break. it's a fairy tale. and once again, your bible says there is only 1 god, and all the worshippers of other gods during the old testament were to be killed and go to hell, do your rooms account for them? or how about new testament, people who worship other gods are still going to hell right alongside unbelievers, what about them? -I refer to all things about this false god, to prove it's false, not just the old testament. as far as facts, you haven't asked me yet what the facts are that disprove the existence of your god. I don't worry about "being wrong", that's a silly proposition. I don't worry about santa claus not being real either, or not answering those sweepstake things I keep getting in the mail in case I "realy won" and I'm missing out. ya right. I'm not going to hold my breath. and I'm not in the same boat as you are. I have nothing to worry about.
btw, you need to bone up on your "free thinking" because your arguments are not persuasive in the least.
So why continue to debate? My arguments may not be persuasive to you, but you haven't presented one solid argument I haven't countered. Most of the questions asked are like the next one. Goofy and not to be taken seriously, but given the context I'll engage.
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? As they were made and not born of woman, there would not have been an umbilical cord for fetal nurishment from a mother..
Well there would be a hole from where the rib was taken out of Adam, maybe? Why interpret the bible so literally if it's based on faith? A creative mind can create answers to either discredit or strengthen one's faith in the bible, but it's up to each individual. In such a scientific world, there is yet so much we do not understand it's impossible to prove or disprove the bible without faith in either proving or disproving.
you're switching back and forth three different ways now:
- taking the bible literally
- saying we can't take the bible literally
- saying we have to just beleive the bible. (whatever it's saying)
I'm not taking the bible literally, the answer's purpose is to show how rhetorical the adam-eve question is. I'm not trying to dictate to you what to believe, just express what I believe and how the bible fits in as the only key I know of to life after death. ]
and it doesn't jive. how can you believe this bible when it doesn't add up? and you missed my point, that you are inconsistent.
No, I'm not inconsistent - I just gave you multiple choice answers. You chose none of the above without even considering the likelihood of one being right. This is not a one in a million lottery chance. It's a sure thing. You say the bible doesn't add up because it is self-contradictory - I think I've already countered that argument.
If there were only two people made by this god, where did all the other races come from? Without outside influence in DNA and gene transfer there would be just one race of people in the world. GEE could it have been evolution?
When Cain killed Abel, he left and started a city called Enoch filled with people. So there were people around at that point. How they got there, the bible doesn't say. I doubt there was incest, or else we'd all look the same. Back in the old testament, there were other gods floating out there that had existed for thousands of years before it was ever written. Nonetheless, my Christian God is the one who prevailed - I wonder why that is
No. the explanation of how one man could "start a city filled with people" by himself doesn't work, and it still doesn't answer the question of the apparent racial diversity that people have. and you go on to say that there were other gods besides your god, even when your bible says there is and was ever only 1 god, the one that created everything. that is contrary to what almost every other christian says. you're just making things up.
Ok, well by that argument, I counter you are the one "making things up." I studied Hinduism and Judaism at Emory University and I believe that gives me more of a perspective on what I believe. I have thought as deeply about this as you, and just because our opinions differ doesn't give you any kind of authority to declare right or wrong. I don't speak for all Christians, I can only speak for myself. You're using an overliteral interpretation of the old testament again and again to make the same point which is just plain ridiculous considering what I've posted about subjective interpretation.
right. other christians say there are other gods, uh huh. if you can't speak for other christians, and what you believe is different, then you don't believe what they do, therefore you aren't following your god's commands. you brought up that old testament story, so tell me, where DID these unaccounted people come from that, according to the fairy tale, made up the city that this Cain guy went to? and does it matter to you that your old testament doesn't make sense, or do you not want to explain it?
Google polytheistic Hindi Christians and you will at least have learned something about Christian tolerance. You don't have to follow the Christian masses to follow God's commands, evangelists are still legitimate Christians in my book. I follow the New testament. It should be obvious that people were around when Cain found Canoch, what explanation is needed?
IF god made everything, animals by the millions, plants by the billion, why stop at TWO people.?
Maybe he made more and just spoiled Adam and Eve by letting them live in the garden. Life's not fair.
doesn't answer the question
The question is not a valid one, considering most Christians don't take the story of creation literally. You can find evidence of this in the US with Christian's lobbying for the teaching of intelligent design in high school alongside the teaching of evolution. Believing we randomly appeared out of nothingness is far more ridiculous then believing in an omniscient omnipotent creator.
not at all. we didn't "randomly appear out of nothingness". it's all explained from the big bang to present day, are you ignoring that? the explanation is there. it's far more plausible than "some god made everything", and about every part of the scientific explanation is at odds with the theory of creation, so which one is true? one or the other! since the scientific theory is built on fact, and all the facts have been proven except the speculation on the early stages of the universe, the answer should be obvious which one is right.
Finally you are doing some creative thinking but I'm afraid you're grossly misinformed about scientific theory. Here is a link that should hopefully educate you on the contemporary science and how theory, hypothesis, and law work:
http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/theory_vs__hypothesis_vs__law
If I hadn't majored in biology I wouldn't know this stuff either, so don't feel bad.
Is the big bang theory simply the manner with which God created the universe? That's more likely then all of the matter and energy that currently exists in the universe randomly being compressed in a space smaller then an atom for some finite period of time and randomly deciding to release all that energy in an exploson. On the other hand, a simple let there be light and boom! rapidly expanding creation-inspired universe. The scientific method is not built on fact, it is built on observation and the testing of hypotheses. It is utterly ironic how one sentence in that link sums up just how much you hypocritically rely on faith after dogging it out so much. "Science just can't commit all the way to absolute - otherwise it wouldn't be science, it would be faith."
the universe was not created in 6 days. it takes millions of years just for a solar system to form.
That's pure speculation, you just don't know that. It's amazing how much faith you have in your arguments which go against science.
animals were not created. mammals evolved from lizards, which evolved from fish, which evolved from invertebrates, which evolved from simple multicellular organisms, which evolved from single celled organisms, which evolved from prototypical life forms without cell walls, which evolved -yes evolved- from self-replicating chemicals, which occurred in the primordial ocean that had lots of amino acids in it.
and that didn't just happen either. under those conditions, it does happen given enough time, and there was plenty of that. that's how it works, on this world and others like it, wherever they may be.
[black]So there is no God but there are planets out there with evolved life??? Since you can't give any facts to support your believe, let me give you some facts that support mine. Charles Darwin, the father of the theory of evolution, converted to Christianity and denounced evolution. There has not been a single known instance of evolution as you describe it(creation of a new species) since the theory has been proposed.
If there were only two people and they had children, where did the children find mates? Do you think there was incest?
Why bother revisiting the literal interpretation flaw in your argument once again?
make up your mind, are you supposed to interpret your bible literally all the time, some of the time, or whenever you feel like it?
It is difficult for me to understand why you haven't grasped the core of what I've been posting - that the bible is meant to be read existentially. It is the answer to every problem you may encounter in life, and with that in mind each verse is meant to be taken in context. You probably won't understand what this means either so I'll explain. There are no contradictions when you read the bible in context and think about how it applies pertaining to existence. It's all about interpretation, and to interpret it you must study it and know it well.
If God was all knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would fall for the temptation that he laid in front of them, so this God Tricked them.. Sort of like telling a child about the cookie jar , telling it not to get into it, and then leaving the room with the lid off the jar.. cause you know the kid is going to grab a cookie..
What abour free will? Maybe life means more when you only last 0-120 years in your body instead of forever. I can only guess what God was thinking philosiphically.
was that supposed to be an answer?
Not only is your question one of subjective philosophy, you answered your own question. A parent might leave the jar open hoping the child wouldn't fail is an obvious counter.
there is no god.
If god was all knowing and has this master plan then god supports abortion, murder, and all manner of evil, after all its his plan..
or if you say he is not responsible for evil then he must condon it as there is never anything done to prevent it..
There's plenty done to prevent it, by people who work with God's help. Men have free will, and if they want to pillage and rape freely they have to answer for it one day. He loves us so much, though, he gave usa way towards forgiveness. You see mothers at the trials of their serial killer sons, and most don't turn away from them, heartbroken as they are. So why question God's love for his children when you can see something as simple as a mother's love for her child.
Well, sorry for being preachy. The bottom line is that free will results in these atrocities. That should be obvious.
why doesn't your god do something about it? you pray to him and say that prayer works. why are these things happening?
If he did, there wouldn't be free will. Prayer works on the basis of your faith. GOD IS NOT GOING TO TAKE AWAY FREE WILL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
Protecting the helpless infants is our responsibility as a civilizatoin, not God's. The innocent come to him eventually anyway. Why would he interfere and negate the power of faith? God loves children for their innocence just like most of the rest of us do. ...
how about all the prayers to this god that are asking to protect these babies? are they going unanswered? is this god ignoring the pleas? are you saying he would rather let them suffer and die, so he could have them?
Is the best you can do is ask more questions? Isn't it clear there are no prayers, if only the abuser knows what he is doing? And yes, I would rather suffer and die and be had then live a good life and perish forever.
you didn't answer the question.
THERE ARE NO PRAYERS FOR THE ABUSED BABIES BECAUSE ONLY THE ABUSER KNOWS THEY'RE BEING ABUSED! Prayers work on the basis of faith, and it is impossible to judge which prayers are answered or unanswered in which way and when.
if we would see that as cruel, and you would say that would be a just thing to do on yor god's part because "heaven" is so much better anyways, then why would god bother helping out adults or anybody else for that matter? just like the babies, they end up in the same place anyways, so is he thinking what's the difference, just let them suffer at one time, die at another and they'll be allright "for the rest of eternity" so it's all good?
There are totally different applications between adults and children - the bible covers it. Look it up since you like to cite contradictions in it so much.
if that would be the case, then you will find that your god has promised you nothing until you get to "heaven". yet you would pray to your god for everything else while you're stil here on earth and say that praying gets you what you want.
Prayer is a symbol of faith, and faith is very powerful. Do you need examples? I pray not
faith in your god is worthless. people have died waiting.
Faith in my God leads to eternal life. Your faith in what doesn't exist means you perish forever. Whether that means you burn or your soul ceases to exist is open to interpretation.
The bible is very historically accurate. It is the greatest history book of the ancient world ever written. Ask any historian.
there are also the torah, the koran, the rig veda, and other holy books of other major religions, none of which are legitimate "history" books. there are plenty others that are more accurate and useful. "any" historian will not tell you that the bible is the greatest history book. I think most will tell you that it is worthless as a chronicle of history but has some value for that period of time. what you said is merely wishful thinking.
and your bible becomes especially useless when you sporadically say it can't be taken literally, or that it can mean anything at all.
Well, without citing any historians there can be no resolutino. Right now, I'm just too lazy too try and prove most historians believe the bible a great history book to someone who will still disbelieve. Try googling great history book in quotes and bible.
I did. then click "edit", "find on this page", and type in the word BIBLE. you get "text not found". ...you were saying?
You've just negated everything you said by proving your a liar.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=EJd&q="great+history+book"+bible&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=vKd&q=great+history+book+bible&btnG=Search
Religious people dont want to "Go there" because they have no answers to the questions" except "It says so in the bible"
I don't say because the bible says so. This is a philosiphical discussion to me and I can only represent what I believe. I think it's better to believe in something then nothing or blindly believe anything. Too bad your personal experiences haven't led you to question more of the why and how we're here. Or maybe it has, and just led you to a different conclusion.
us unbelievers have asked that question, before we didn't have the means to answer it, now we do with the results of the work of scientists. so, why don't you want to "go there"? you say it's a philosophical discussion, all the other answers you have given so far are sort of philosophical, it must be true that you don't want to fully engage your philosophy, you just use it when you think it works (we still don't think it does) or at other times abandon it entirely. because you know you're wrong. it must be true that you don't want to "go there".
You are blind in your belief that theory of evolution isw a law of science. It is not - look it up my friend. The big bang, the most accepted belief on the creation of the universe, is still just a theory. All of us have asked that question, and all of us have come to our personal and individual conclusions. If you are a blind follower of atheism, you are a sheep. As far as your judgement on how I engage my philosophy, you're just wrong.
it is a "law of science". it did happen, it does happen right now, and it will continue happening. you are a blind follower of this religion you follow, and you would tell me to also follow it blindly, would you not? I believe only in proven facts, so I refuse to beleive what you yourself say can't be proven, yet you tell me I follow my beliefs blindly? you don't even know what words are coming out of your mouth.
and regarding "how you engage your philosophy", apparently it's quite selective.
See the link I posted above about laws, theories, and hypothesis of science.You don't believe in facts, you have misguided faith in what others have told you. Open your mind to what is instead of blindly following.
I consider myself a Christian, and I'm suspicious that they are the one and the same. It just makes sense. The path to salvation is through God, one religion or the other. There are many rooms in heaven, so says the bible. And the bible is the number one authority on heaven - that's why I have to reference it.
sure! muslims aren't really praying to allah, jews aren't really praying to jehova, buddhists aren't really praying to buddha, and pagans aren't really sacrificing goats to balthazaaar or whoever. they're all doing the wrong things to worship your god, but they're really worshipping him and they don't know it, right? and you are supposed to go and kill them for worshipping the wrong god, so says the bible. uh huh.
I hope you're not as lacking creativity when it comes to solving real life problems.
did someone else just log on for you and start typing stuff?
The holy spirit is in me mayhbe?
I don't know why you're posting this mountain of ancient world rules from the old testament when clearly the new testament overrides all that stuff. And now YOU are referencing the bible as well.
it is to show that your god has commanded his worshippers to kill people in the past, and to show that it contradicts what you say about him being all full of love and all that. you would say that was in the past and he's different now, fine! we weren't talking about now, we were in fact talking about the old testament god. do you deny that your old testament god wanted people dead? and does that not contradict the idea of an old testament god who supposedly loved everybody?
btw, yes we are allowed to repeat the words of your contradictions, from you the bible or anywhere else.
Well, I believe I've already reconciled them to you.
that's nice.
If you understand that the bible is subject to interpretation, these contradictions are obsolete. For example, what is God's face? A literal face, or the face of his wrath, or what? We can argue for days over the bible but the fact that we are gives it more power then if you simply kept silent.
no, it gives the bible more power obviously if we keep silent and don't question what it says. if we examine it, we do in fact find it to be rife with contradiction and nonsensical illogic. so fortunately those of us who haven't unquestioningly come under the grip of bible worshippers without thinking for themselves first, should be allowed to ask questions, and they will find plenty of things to refute and your bible and the god that goes with it will be rejected as false.
Well, I guess you just see things differently. I just answer the questions with answers rather than more questions.
your answers make more questions than they solve. duh.
oh, btw, your bible is false and your god isn't there.
Your answers are based on an ignorance of science and the scientific process. You have proved you are willing to lie rather then debate openly. Please don't bother with another longwinded reply because I will not respond to a liar. As far as your last sentence - who cares what you think for in the end some of us will see while the rest perish forever.0 -
I see some of us are stating matters of faith as fact, and that is a no-no. Since neither the believer nor the non-believer can prove his belief, it must be stated as a matter of opinion.
Maybe I will just start poofing any religious discussions, because this is how they end up.0
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